323 réponses à ce sujet

[Yankee23]

Excuse the interruption but I just wanted to pass along that The Highever Born - Cousland Fan Group will be hosting a Male Cousland Contest! The contest is being organized by LadyDamodred and the rules are posted here. So get your Male Couslands ready and come joing us! There will be prizes!

You may now return to you regulary scheduled program.

[IanPolaris]

Sleeping below,



That is provocation on Wynne's part. Note that in this scene if Lelianna and Alister are present you get NO approval loss from either in this case (unlike if your press on and say that annulment is the only option yourself which means you provoke the confrontation).



Wynne knows that you were sent by the Templars. She then knows that you not crossing her barrier is NOT AN OPTION (given that the Templars to have the authority to annul).



However, at no time does you or anyone in your party attack. Wynne goes hostile first.



-Polaris

[sleepingbelow]

I understand that you're confused, so, for you and others that have trouble following dialogue--
Morrigan talks about killing mages twice, and if you respond in the affirmative (or in your view, "the maybe"), Wynne says you can't pass through .  Because she can hear you.  Because she is standing right there.  

While you have not committed to killing Wynne, your big mouth has created an impasse; a tangible one in fact, in the form of a big blue glowing wall.  Morrigan solves this for you.  Somebody has to do it at this juncture.  You screwed up your negotiation to the point where there are no take backs.  Morrigan sees that Wynne has clearly put her slipper down, and breaks the deadlock for you.  She tells Wynne that she's going to kill her, and combat begins!

I know you're not "attacking"... because there's not a game mechanic for that.  Hostilities ignite through dialogue all the time in DA:O.

The reason Alistair and Lelianna don't lose approval?  Because your Grey Warden was stupid and, in a very tense situation, humored the girl who doesn't understand handshaking and hugs.  Al and Anna disapprove of actions that are malicious, not stupid.  They are forgiving that way.  In this case, you're just not so hot with the diplomacy, and they understand.

I'm glad I could clear things up for you.  You're welcome! :happy:  Issue resolved!  Next on the agenda:  Wynne's bosoms are obviously magical.  But what school of magic do they belong to?

Primal, because they're super hot and electrifying?  Or perhaps Entropy, because they devour all thoughts in your head?  Perhaps they're a limited form of Keeper magic, subtly tapping into the heart beat of the world, like a high five on a mountain top.

[sleepingbelow]

In an ironic twist, they could be a limited form of Blood Magic, the way they could control a man's thoughts.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:26 .

[Zjarcal]

*breaking the rules and jumping in the thread*



I don't really blame Wynne for attacking when you agree with Morrigan since after all, Morrigan is approving the annulment of the Circle which will result in Wynne's death, but it should be noted that Morrigan doesn't actively ask the warden to kill the mages, she says "now their masters have chosen death for them and I say, let them have it".



Basically, Morrigan objects to you lending help to the mages, not really telling you to outright kill them. Of course, she doesn't have a problem with participating in the slaughter, but technically speaking she didn't ask you to be a part of it, at least not directly.



Still, I can't blame Wynne for attacking in this case since if you don't help them, you're essentially condemning them to death. And I can't really see how a peaceful solution could've been achieved at that point.



*bows out of thread again*

[sleepingbelow]

For reals, dudes, Wynne doesn't attack.  She says "You will enter this tower over my dead body," and Morrigan responds, "We will give you your wish, old woman."  Then the spells start flying.  I think it is discombobulating because it isn't the Warden saying it with "(Attack)" at the end of the sentence, but that fight doesn't start until Morrigan announces violence.  I'll concede that the rest of the party gets swept up in the stand off, but what are they going to do?  Side against Morrigan?  Big violation of the bro code, man.  Even if Morrigan isn't exactly a bro.

[IanPolaris]

Sleepingbelow,



It is you not I that seem to be comprehension challenged at this point. Why does Wynne attack you? She says so very clearly. She says, "Your advisor is a dangerous apostate and you'll get into this tower over my dead body." She says this KNOWING that the Templars (who have every legal right to do so) have permitted you to do so, no matter how many mages you have to kill.



If that isn't initiating the conflict then nothing is. Furthermore Wynne's own words damn her. She is not protecting her charges. She is attacking you and your group because Morrigan is an apostate. She says this openly.



I am happy to clear this up for you.



-Polaris

[Zjarcal]

Eh, I think at that point both Wynne and Morrigan are pretty much dead set on attacking each other. It's not OOC for Wynne to attack when provoked (like with Cullen, where she will attack all by herself).
But again, I don't really blame her for it.

And you're right, Morrigan ain't a bro. Just like I'm not a dude.... a dudette perhaps? 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:56 .

[Ryzaki]

I'm gonna settle this with the toolset folks. Give me a moment.

[IanPolaris]

sleepingbelow wrote...

For reals, dudes, Wynne doesn't attack.  She says "You will enter this tower over my dead body," and Morrigan responds, "We will give you your wish, old woman."  Then the spells start flying.  I think it is discombobulating because it isn't the Warden saying it with "(Attack)" at the end of the sentence, but that fight doesn't start until Morrigan announces violence.  I'll concede that the rest of the party gets swept up in the stand off, but what are they going to do?  Side against Morrigan?  Big violation of the bro code, man.  Even if Morrigan isn't exactly a bro.

By saying what she does,k Wynne does initiate the conflict especially since Wynne knows better than anyone that you have every legal right to go into that tower including over their dead bodies.  Wynne could just let you past the barrier (apparently per her later conversation with Orwaine) she can lower and then raise the barrier again.

She CHOOSES to initiate the conflict even though not even Morrigan has overtly threatened any person at this time.

Wynne chooses to start the attack.  Not Morrigan and Not the warden.

EPIC FAIL Wynne.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Zjarcal wrote...

Eh, I think at that point both Wynne and Morrigan are pretty much dead set on attacking each other. It's not OOC for Wynne to attack when provoked (like with Cullen, where she will attack all by herself).
But again, I don't really blame her for it.

And you're right, Morrigan ain't a bro. Just like I'm not a dude.... a dudette perhaps? 

Wynne is dead set on attacking Morrigan the instant she figures out that Morri is an apostate.  Morrigan simply holds Wynne in comtempt but does not intend to attack her UNLESS Wynne initiates the confrontation.  How do I know?  If you tell Morrigan that she could have been a circle mage, she scoffs and says essentially, "Do what you like, I care not."

The point is it's Wynne that's dead set on murderknifing Morrigan in that scene and not the other way around.

-Polaris

[Zjarcal]

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm gonna settle this with the toolset folks. Give me a moment.

Sadly there are no VO notes for the relevant lines. 

IanPolaris wrote...
Wynne is dead set on attacking Morrigan the instant she figures out that Morri is an apostate.  Morrigan simply holds Wynne in comtempt but does not intend to attack her UNLESS Wynne initiates the confrontation.

Agreed.

Still, my point was more that I don't really blame Wynne that much here.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:06 .

[sleepingbelow]

Zjarcal wrote...

Eh, I think at that point both Wynne and Morrigan are pretty much dead set on attacking each other. It's not OOC for Wynne to attack when provoked (like with Cullen, where she will attack all by herself).
But again, I don't really blame her for it.

And you're right, Morrigan ain't a bro. Just like I'm not a dude.... a dudette perhaps? 

Fun fact, I've developed this weird tic in real life where I call everybody "dude".  The majority of my friends are actually of the dudette persuasion, and they still get called dude.  Excuses aside, no offense intended.

Anyways, yeah, I could see it as a bar fight mentality.  They ARE both posturing...

IanPolaris wrote...
blah blah blah...
 She says this KNOWING that the Templars (who have every legal right to do so) have permitted you to do so, no matter how many mages you have to kill.
-Polaris

Oh heck, you're right, I missed that!  You're right, she should totally roll over for you.  Her telling you to stay put is pretty much tantamount to a battlecry.

EDIT:  I mean, after all.  She KNOWS you're helping the Templars, who're sitting pretty waiting for a death warrant to arrive.  I mean, it is LEGAL and all, amirite? 

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:11 .

[IanPolaris]

sleepingbelow wrote...

Oh heck, you're right, I missed that!  You're right, she should totally roll over for you.  Her telling you to stay put is pretty much tantamount to a battlecry.

You sarcasm (which does you no credit) aside, yes she should.  You are acting as an agent of the Templars who have every legal authority to do whatever is necessary to restore the tower INCLUDING killing any and all mages in it.  Wynne knows this.

-Polaris

Edit:  Her actions are tantamount to defying the Templars themselvs (Wynne knows this).  She HAS other options including letting the group through and then closing the barrier behind them (we know this because she says later on that she could have let Orwain in).  At this point Wynne's hands are clean.  If she needs to defend herself later, that's later, but given what Wynne knows it's perfectly reasonable from her PoV that the Warden and Co will (deservedly from her PoV) get killed anyway.  If not, the tower has a chance of being restored (and just because the Templars can kill everyone doesn't mean they necessarily will...even in a Rite of Annulment case).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:16 .

[Zjarcal]

sleepingbelow wrote...
Excuses aside, no offense intended.

Oh, I know, I just wanted an excuse to throw around the word "dudette"... 

EDIT: And here's a peace offering for the Wynne thread...



Young Chibi Wynne by Destined2Rock.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:18 .

[IanPolaris]

Zjarcal wrote...

Agreed.

Still, my point was more that I don't really blame Wynne that much here.

Whether you blame Wynne or not, the basic issue is this: Wynne provokes the confrontation/attack and thus is at fault in this case.  Bottom line.

-Polaris

[sleepingbelow]

No no, dude, I get it! You've got a legal right! Templars said it was cool for you to kill mages. By not being complicit in her likely death sentence, she's practically asking for it.

[Ryzaki]

Wynne: (entering tower with her knowing you're a warden a non mage) It's you! No... come no further. Grey Warden or no, I will strike you down where you stand! [Surprise, suspicion]

PC: Wynne--what are you doing here?

Wynne: I am a mage of the Circle. More importantly, why are you here? The templars would not let just anyone by.

PC: I came here seeking the aid of the mages.

Now the beginning convo if she *doesn't* know you from Adam.

Wynne: Stop right there! Take another step, and I swear I will strike you down where you stand! (Commanding, fierce)

PC: Who are you to threaten me?

Wynne: I am Wynne, mage of the Circle, and these children are under my protection. (Commanding and authoritative.) Who are you, and what is your purpose here? Have the templars opened the door? Speak quickly--I'll have no games.(Curt, cold, authoritative.)

First Option PC: I am a Grey Warden, and I seek the help of the mages.

Wynne: And you were told that the Circle was in no shape to help you, I suppose. (curt, cold authoritive) So why did the templars let you in? Do they plan to attack the tower now?

PC: No, they are waiting for reinforcements.

Leads to Wynne: 

PC: Yes, they have the Right of Annulment. (and) Don't worry, the Right of Annulment has not arrived. both lead to

Wynne: They sent for it, then. I feared they might have. What else could they do? (Sounds resigned, a little hopeless.)
So Greagoir thinks the Circle is beyond hope. He probably assumes we are all dead.

The convo continues on like this with no object hostility other than when she didn't know you from adam.

Wait this is how the convochanges if you start off saying you're helping the templars.

PC: I am helping Greagoir resolve the Circle's difficulties.

Wynne: Then you do serve the templars as I feared. Do they have the Right of Annulment? [voice gets a little cold]

PC: No, but Greagoir expects it to arrive soon.

Wynne: So Greagoir thinks the Circle is beyond hope. He probably assumes we are all dead.(Sounds resigned, a little hopeless) They abandoned us to our fate, but even trapped as we are, we have survived. If they invoke the Right, however, we will not be able to stand against them.(Sounds resigned, a little hopeless. Sad)

I'll pick the more neutral insead of the out and out helpful options.

PC: What happened here?

Wynne: Let it suffice to say that we had something of a revolt on our hands, led by a mage named Uldred.When he returned from the battle at Ostagar, he tried to take over the Circle. As you can see, it didn't work out as he had planned.I don't know what became of Uldred, but I am certain all this is his doing. I will not lose the Circle to one man's pride and stupidity. (Cold anger).

PC: And yet you were sitting here this whole time?

Wynne: I tried to help the children get out, but the doors were locked... no one responded when I called for help. What else was I supposed to do? (weary and concerned) I erected a barrier over the door leading to the rest of the tower, so nothing from inside could attack the children.You will not be able to enter the tower as long as the barrier holds, but I will dispel it if you join with me to save this Circle. (trying to persuade someone.)

PC: Very well. I will help you.

Wynne: Once Greagoir sees that we have made the tower safe, I trust he will tell his men to back down. He is not unreasonable.

PC: Then we should set off immediately

Morrigan: You want us to assist this preachy schoolmistress? To rescue these pathetic excuses for mages? (Spiteful) They allow themselves to be corralled like cattle, mindless. Now their masters have chosen death for them and I say let them have it.(spiteful)

Option 1 PC: You could have been one of them, if things were different.

Morrigan: [Persuade passed] I could be here, had my mother not shielded me from the templars, so I am to show sympathy? (Incredous) My mother often said that things are the way they are, because they could not have been any other way. I always questioned this. (thinking deeply) Do what you wish. I care not. (Flippant. Indifferent).

Morrigan: [Persuade failed] Hmph. If that were so, why, I am sure I would have flung myself from the top of this tower years ago. I will allow neither mind nor body be subjugated in such a dehumanizing fashion.

Now this is what happens when you agree with the...witch.

PC: You have a point. Perhaps you are right.

Morrigan: Of course I am right. Save her, save them all from this half-life.

Wynne: Your advisor is an apostate? You are more dangerous than I imagined, and you will enter this tower over my dead body!

at this point you have threatend her.

Morrigan: We will give you your wish, old woman!

[End Dialogue Wynne attacks]

Really though anyone halfway pragmatic should know not to listen to Morrigan when trying to compromise.


Gah. Morrigan's such a damn...urgh...*sucks in rage* 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:21 .

[sleepingbelow]

Zjarcal wrote...

Young Chibi Wynne by Destined2Rock.

Is that a XXX on that book cover?  Is that...?

... awesome.

EDIT: Y'know, I read some lady porn from the supermarket.  It was about time traveling vikings that became Navy Seals and romanced widowed aerobics instructors.  It made me somewhat jealous because very little dude porn has time travel or vikings.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:24 .

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki,



Sorry but no. Saying "perhaps you are right" does not constitute a direct threat. If you think so, try that with any court when pleading "self defense" and see how far it gets you (I hope you enjoy prison if you think it would get you anywhere).



The fact is that saying "perhaps you are right" does NOT mean the Warden has threatened to attack the mages. It means that Morrigan has made a good point and perhaps he should procede without Wynne's help.



It is Wynne's Fault in this case an no one else's that people die here. Her actions are exactly like trying to play coy with a nervous member of a police SWAT team when he has you dead to rights with his assault rifle. Even innocent people that cop an attitude with cops with legal authority this way all too often wind up with a severe case of the deads, and YOU as the templar agent are the legal authority and Wynne knows it.



It's Wynne who is to blame for simply not permitting the paty to go past the barrier without her help (as if it never occures to her) and Wynne definately provokes the confrontation just because Morri is an apostate.



Epic Fail.



-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

...If you don't see how agreeing with someone who is going "Muwahahaha all you need to die for being weak an pathetic fools!" isn't a threat we have nothing to say to each other.



And can we please take this to the abominable Wynne thread like I asked a few pages ago?

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

...If you don't see how agreeing with someone who is going "Muwahahaha all you need to die for being weak an pathetic fools!" isn't a threat we have nothing to say to each other.

And can we please take this to the abominable Wynne thread like I asked a few pages ago?

I am only responding on the thread that this was posted on.  Talk to a certain someone else about that.

As for the first, go ahead and try to plead self defense if you shoot someone that simply says, "Perhaps your life isn't worth a plug nickle."  Let me know when you are up for parole.  Seriously.

-Polaris

Edit:  AGAIN both of you overlook the obvious point.  Wynne didn't HAVE to go death-murder-kill on the warden for agreeing with Morrigan since NO attack had (yet) been made and Morrigan was NOT being overtly hostile (as your own dialog proves).  Wynne had the OPTION of letting your party through and then turning her back on you...but no, she either has to go with you or has to kill you.

You don't pull that off with a modern SWAT Team.  You certianly don't pull that with a Grey Warden that has better things to do and doesn't know (at least for sure) that you might not be an abomination yourself. (A point you can make to Alistair and Lelianna with a simple persuade check btw).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:47 .

[sleepingbelow]

IanPolaris wrote...
Sorry but no. Saying "perhaps you are right" does not constitute a direct threat. If you think so, try that with any court when pleading "self defense" and see how far it gets you (I hope you enjoy prison if you think it would get you anywhere).

Except that "Perhaps you're right" is in response to, "Let them have death," and is followed by "Save them from this half-life."

IanPolaris wrote...
something about cops

Prooooobably something closer to a death squad coming to round people up.  A totally legal death squad!

Epic Fail.
-Polaris

QFT.

[IanPolaris]

Sleepingbelow,



You are being ridiculous. At NO point does Morrigan actually theaten the mages. She posits a position that they are weak and deserve death, but that doesn't constitute a threat...not even if you agree with it. Saying someone might deserve death (and that's a gross exaggeration fwiw) is hardly the same thing as saying, "To this or a kill you." THAT is a threat.



If a SWAT Team comes in and asks you to unlock a security door (very clear to what's happening in the tower) you don't say, "I won't open it unless I go with you" and get prissy about it. That's a good way to get shot....and that's exactly what Wynne does.



-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[oops double post]

Modifié par IanPolaris, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:52 .