323 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Face of Evil wrote...

Wynne attacks you for agreeing with Morrigan that the mages should not be saved. That's hardly unprovoked.

But I really don't want to debate this with you, Polaris. So please do not reply.

Too late.  You responded directly so you've got a reply.  It is definately unprovoked.  How do I know?  If you side with the templars and kill the children and Wynne and Lelianna/Alistair are in the party, you take fairly significant approval hits from both (unless you make a persuade check to convince them that they are abominations trying to trick them).  In that case, yes, you in effect land the first blow.

However, in the later case, Wynne is NOT defending the children and is not attacking because you are agreeing with the Templars.  She is attacking because Morri is an apostate (and even says this).  This is most definately an unprovoked attack, and you get no loss of approval from Alistair or Lelianna in that case.

-Polaris

[Face of Evil]

IanPolaris wrote...

[Too late.  You responded directly so you've got a reply.

Yes, I made a critical error by indulging in your stupidity. I won't make that mistake again. Good night.

[Maria13]

Esbatty wrote...

Alright people question time: Wynne - Sexy mage or Sexiest mage?

Sexy mage: The lady has a past and is not ashamed or embarassed about it. I like to imagine that she actually does not know who the father of her child was because she had several lovers at the time at least one of whom was a templar who left the order for her...  But Wynne values her independence above everything else and does not want to settle down.

[sleepingbelow]

Ryzaki wrote...

Any good character wouldn't knife an old woman. So much for nobility and justice.

She was a dragon at the time!  Sorry!

Oh, Wynne.  Right.

I liked Wynne, even if I usually did not agreed with her.  She was sort of a Carth Onasi; she was Joe Status Quo.  She was most interesting when bantering with the characters that held extreme viewpoints (Sten, Morrigan, Loghain.)  She was thematically useful as an embodiment of an extremely moderate Fereldan.

What drove me crazy about her subplot is that it never went far enough.  She continues to exist into perpetuity in this... like hyper-liminal state.  The more accepting she got of her condition and the more things continued to NOT deteriorate, the more I felt like I had storyline blue balls.  I wish she was less comfortable with the situation.  In real life, it is good to accept the things we can't change, but in stories I need drama!  Gimme some more pathos!  Be angsty, ya old bat!  You might be an Abomination, the thing you hate and fear most. Gimme your best Johnny Cash doing "Hurt".

Then she has the gall to brazenly show up in Awakening, NOT as a crazy Fade Spirit/flesh bound revenant hybrid.  Nope.  Business as usual.  C'mon on lady!  I know I just praised you for representing the status quo, but something should have happened by now.

[IanPolaris]

Face of Evil wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

[Too late.  You responded directly so you've got a reply.

Yes, I made a critical error by indulging in your stupidity. I won't make that mistake again. Good night.

I see, anyone that doesn't agree with you is stupid.  How nice.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

Hey Flemeth turns into a damn dragon.



Though you bring up a good point. I indulge her by tricking Morrigan most of the time.

[sleepingbelow]

Ryzaki wrote...
Hey Flemeth turns into a damn dragon.
 

heh, yeah, I was just trying to come up with a time when an old lady had to be stabbed for great justice.

[Ryzaki]

sleepingbelow wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Hey Flemeth turns into a damn dragon.
 

heh, yeah, I was just trying to come up with a time when an old lady had to be stabbed for great justice.

Does Flemeth even count? I mean she body snatches. And she's scary.

[IanPolaris]

Face of Evil wrote...You are correct. However, Polaris has an axe to grind against all the mean people — Wynne included — who oppress those poor ol' blood mages. Don't get into it with him.

This is a dishonest edit since your original statement (since deleted) agreed with me (except the PoV of course).  Wynne does attack you and risk the children unprovoked if she discovers that Morrigan is an apostate and that was my point.  I was deliberately leaving the ethics of bloodmagic out of it.

However, since you insist, I challenge any of you that love Wynne to play with the original dialog enabled a GOOD bloodmage (and yes you can quite easily) and see what you think of her after she tries to have you killed after saving her precious tower.

That one scene alone has forever poisoned my opinion of Wynne.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

sleepingbelow wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Hey Flemeth turns into a damn dragon.
 

heh, yeah, I was just trying to come up with a time when an old lady had to be stabbed for great justice.

Does Flemeth even count? I mean she body snatches. And she's scary.

Why not?  Wynne's an abomination after all.  If one counts then so does the other.

-Polaris

[nos_astra]

IanPolaris wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Unprovoked? I thought she attacked if you tell her you will support the templars (something that will lead to the death of the children).

She will if you say that to be sure, but if you agree to help Wynne, Morri will speak up and talk about how the Mages cage themselves.  If you show even the slightest agreement for this statement, Wynne calls Morrigan an apostate and declares you will get past her past her dead body.  She most definately does an unprovoked attack.

-Polaris

Morrigan says they deserve being "anulled" by the templars because they are so terribly weak. I think. When you agree with Morrigan you imply that you will proceed without Wynne and couldn't care less about the Circle mages.

For me that's not unprovoked. I'm glad Wynne exists, she's one of the few sources for how mages are treated in Ferelden. It's part of the lore that mages are feared and people shouldn't be fine with the Warden being a mage (let alone a blood mage) running around freely.

Inconsistencies in  writing and characterization happen all the time, Wynne is tolerable for me. I agree, however, that her condition and her past are not nearly explored enough.

Modifié par klarabella, 14 décembre 2010 - 10:14 .

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Unprovoked? I thought she attacked if you tell her you will support the templars (something that will lead to the death of the children).

She will if you say that to be sure, but if you agree to help Wynne, Morri will speak up and talk about how the Mages cage themselves.  If you show even the slightest agreement for this statement, Wynne calls Morrigan an apostate and declares you will get past her past her dead body.  She most definately does an unprovoked attack.

-Polaris

Morrigan says they deserve being "anulled" by the templars because they are so terribly weak. I think. When you agree with Morrigan you imply that you will proceed without Wynne and couldn't care less about the Circle mages.

For me that's not unprovoked. I'm glad Wynne exists, she's one of the few sources for how mages are treated in Ferelden. It's part of the lore that mages are feared and people shouldn't be fine with the Warden being a mage (let alone a blood mage) running around freely.

Inconsistencies in  writing and characterization happen all the time, Wynne is tolerable for me. I agree, however, that her condition and her past are not nearly explored enough.

I can not agree.  Replay the scene again and it's not what you think it is.  Wynne does not attack you if you say that Morrigan *might* be right because you are threatening the children or going through with the annulment.  How do I know?  Because when you DO explicitly decide to go through with the annulment, her conversation is completely different and both Alistair and Lelianna (if present) object and try to talk you down.

No.  If you listen to Morrigan, Wynne says, "Your advisor is a dangerous apostate and you will enter this tower over my dead body."  Then she attacks.

Unprovoked.

How do I know?  No approval loss from either Alistair or Lelianna in this case.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 14 décembre 2010 - 10:30 .

[nos_astra]

I see. Well, that's hardly consistent with the way her character is presented most of the game. I'd be willing to say it's crappy writing, as it seems extremely illogical.

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

I see. Well, that's hardly consistent with the way her character is presented most of the game. I'd be willing to say it's crappy writing, as it seems extremely illogical.

Isn't it?  It's consistant with Wynne's insistance of forcing a confrontration with a blood mage warden that just HELPED the circle survive (note she doesn't do this if you side with the Templars after all) when both the circle and the templars are at their very weakest.  It's consistant with her throwing her life away because you corrupted the ashes of a dead women and saying, "Let the Darkspawn take you".  Sad fact is, it's consistant with a lot of Wynne's character.  She goes balistic whenever her precious moral centre is threatened whether others suffer or not and that's consistant throughout the game.  No other character is willing to attack the Warden more than Wynne.

-Polaris

[nos_astra]

Wynne is far from flawless. She does have issues with apostates and blood magic and she's pro-Chantry.

Morrigan's being an apostate is never adressed again and never again do you get the impression that Wynne does more than slightly disapprove of apostates. She herself leaves the tower, which pretty much makes her an apostate, too. That's hypocritical, of course. She obviously wants mages to be educated properly and fights for Circle autonomy.

She disapproves strongly of blood magic, which is consistent with the world lore.

What is inconsistent is:
- she will attack if you adress Morrigans status, something that is a non-issue for the rest of the game
- she will not attack, if you hint that you're helping the templars before she takes down the barrier, but will attack you when you say the same thing in front of Cullen
- she will not say anything when you tell the Knight-Commander you approve of the annulment, but her Fade dream reveals that she's feely extremely guilty about the death of her fellow mages and apprentices

It's inconsistent writing for me.

I appreciate that there is a possibility she will reveal your being a blood mage, however, the scene also crappily written and makes little sense. You can annul the Circle on the off-chance there might be blood mages but seconds before (or after) this decision the Knight-Commander and Irving are fine with that, just because you helped them and claim to be a Grey Warden.

Modifié par klarabella, 14 décembre 2010 - 11:47 .

[IanPolaris]

I appreciate that there is a possibility she will reveal your being a blood mage, however, the scene also crappily written and makes little sense. You can annul the Circle on the off-chance there might be blood mages but seconds before (or after) this decision the Knight-Commander and Irving are fine with that, just because you helped them and claim to be a Grey Warden.

Here's my issues with the scene and it resonates all too well with all the other "Wynne..kill, kill, kill" scenes you get in the game:

1.  Wynne presumes to know more about Grey Warden magic than a Grey Warden Mage (you).  If you pass a ridiculously easy persuade check with Irving (the only way not to pass it is not to try), Irving (correctly) calls Wynne out on that very point.

2.  The other bloodmages in question just participated in an open revolt that YOU helped put down.  Moreover, you are constained by the Grey Wardens (the taint alone will ultimately control you).  The others are not.  Now the ins and outs of this are not commonly known, but the fact that Grey Wardens are a special case is.

3.  Duncan is quite open when he says that Grey Wardens have from time to time used blood magic, and Duncan was one of Irving's best friends.  Do you really think that Irving doesn't kinow you are a bloodmage after using blood magic to rescue him?  The fact that Irving is willing to cover for you says volumes about him (and volumes about Wynne and not in a good way for her).

4.  Finally if that weren't enough, Wynne needs to grow some commoin freaking sense in that self-rightous head of hers.  If she truly believed the Grey Warden Bloodmage was a threat and needed to be exposed, doing so when both the circle and templars are at their very weakest is stupid.  It's ESPECIALLY stupid when you consider that the Grey Warden bloodmage in question is likely the most powerful bloodmage in this part of Thedas and nearly singlehandedly cleaned out the tower....does she really think that exposing what's left of the Templars and Circle to this is a really smart move?

That's enough.  I can easily think of more.  However, this sort of self-rightous (IMHO) idiocy is present in Wynne throughout the entire game.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...
 She obviously wants mages to be educated properly and fights for Circle autonomy.

No she does not.  Irving does but she most emphatically does not.  In fact she rails against it in Awakenings.

-Polaris

[Sabariel]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

sleepingbelow wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Hey Flemeth turns into a damn dragon.
 

heh, yeah, I was just trying to come up with a time when an old lady had to be stabbed for great justice.

Does Flemeth even count? I mean she body snatches. And she's scary.

Why not?  Wynne's an abomination after all.  If one counts then so does the other.

-Polaris

An abomination is what happens when a demon possesses a human or an
elf (or a mage). What evidence is there exactly that Wynne was possessed
by a demon? She shows no signs of demonic possession.

[sleepingbelow]

 Dude, you're getting mouth foam on my mage robe.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 14 décembre 2010 - 12:23 .

[sleepingbelow]

Sabariel wrote...
An abomination is what happens when a demon possesses a human or an
elf (or a mage). What evidence is there exactly that Wynne was possessed
by a demon? She shows no signs of demonic possession.

Well, there was the time she went all super saiyan during that darkspawn ambush.  But that was sort of cool.

Anyway, I think the logic goes: if a spirit attempts to enter the mortal world through a mortal, it is a demon.

So, blah blah blah, if a demon occupies a mortal's body, they are possessed.  There is a spirit in Wynne.  Blah blah.

The practical definition of a demon in DA really seems to be any spirit that is interested in getting up in your fleshy grill.

[nos_astra]

IanPolaris wrote...

klarabella wrote...
 She obviously wants mages to be educated properly and fights for Circle autonomy.

No she does not.  Irving does but she most emphatically does not.  In fact she rails against it in Awakenings.

-Polaris

Ok, no autonomy. *grumbles* She's a Loyalist, who would have thought. But one with a tendency towards the Libertarian direction. She believes in repsonsibility and accepts that mages are feared with good reason.

A good education and supervision are important to her. Freedom is something that must be earned, and obviously she thinks she does deserve more freedom.

Modifié par klarabella, 14 décembre 2010 - 12:48 .

[Wulfram]

Wynne's an Aequitarian, like Irving. Or so says Senior Enchanter Torrin.

[nos_astra]

Wulfram wrote...
Wynne's an Aequitarian, like Irving. Or so says Senior Enchanter Torrin.

Ah, that makes sense. Between Loyalists and Libertarians. Thanks for this tidbit.

[nos_astra]

IanPolaris wrote...
1.  Wynne presumes to know more about Grey Warden magic than a Grey Warden Mage (you).  If you pass a ridiculously easy persuade check with Irving (the only way not to pass it is not to try), Irving (correctly) calls Wynne out on that very point.

You are a recruit who knows very little about the Grey Wardens.
Grey Wardens do have a noble legend, although there are some dark spots. It's very likely that Wynne does indeed know more about magic in general than you, including "Grey Warden magic" (does a thing like that exist?).

IanPolaris wrote...
2.  The other bloodmages in question just participated in an open revolt that YOU helped put down.  Moreover, you are constained by the Grey Wardens (the taint alone will ultimately control you).  The others are not.  Now the ins and outs of this are not commonly known, but the fact that Grey Wardens are a special case is.

I believe the scene was cut last minute for this very reason, it makes little sense.

IanPolaris wrote...
3. Duncan is quite open when he says that Grey Wardens have from time to time used blood magic, and Duncan was one of Irving's best friends.  Do you really think that Irving doesn't kinow you are a bloodmage after using blood magic to rescue him?

I don't take this seriously. You can fight Loghain using blood magic right under the Grand Cleric's nose, at the Landsmeet, with most of Ferelden's nobility gathered. No one says anything. Why? Because it's cool? No, the game does have flaws and ignoring the lore about magic is one of it.

Duncan says, that Wardens can resort to blood magic. He never says you don't need to be careful or diplomatic about it, or that your status as a Grey Warden will provide you with a magical invulnerability because everyone will know your face and believe your words. They sometimes kill children out of fear when the magical talent is revealed, but a grown blood mage is just cool. No one would try to kill you first and then ask questions.

IanPolaris wrote...
The fact that Irving is willing to cover for you says volumes about him (and volumes about Wynne and not in a good way for her).

She is also asked to be his replacement as a First Enchanter. What does that say about her?

IanPolaris wrote...
4. Finally if that weren't enough, Wynne needs to grow some commoin freaking sense in that self-rightous head of hers.  If she truly believed the Grey Warden Bloodmage was a threat and needed to be exposed, doing so when both the circle and templars are at their very weakest is stupid.  It's ESPECIALLY stupid when you consider that the Grey Warden bloodmage in question is likely the most powerful bloodmage in this part of Thedas and nearly singlehandedly cleaned out the tower....does she really think that exposing what's left of the Templars and Circle to this is a really smart move?

Yes, single-handedly. Almost, accompanied by three companions ... because for some odd reason there can't be more. Scientists still try to find out why you can't take more with you. Must be a disturbance in the Force.

As I said above, I think this was the reason why they cut that scene. There is a lot in the game that makes little sense, if you think about it.

Modifié par klarabella, 14 décembre 2010 - 01:20 .

[ejoslin]

Again, i want to point out that the scene really wasn't cut. It was voiced, animated, but caused a conflict that would have necessitated additional coding and they ran out of resources. Morrigan had a few scenes that was actually cut -- as in not completed, etc.

As far as Wynne being asked to become first enchanter? I don't find that surprising at all. That she turned it down I think says volumes about her -- she expected the gray warden to go back to the circle and take on the first enchanter duties on top of being a gray warden, but refused to take on those responsibilities herself, though she did not have the additional responsibilities of being a gray warden.

Edit; I just find it unlikely that that scene was cut because someone felt it was out of character given how hectic things obviously were towards the end of DAO production.  Things like no dialog for Gray Warden Alistair towards the end.  Morrigan's personal quest being changed significantly -- the complexity taken out of it in favor of something that took far less coding.  It's just hard to believe that a little scene, already in, had someone saying, 'woops, taht is really out of character, let's take it out."  More likely, someone testing had a bloodmage, couldn't call the landsmeet, and QA decided to make that scene unable to trigger rather than write a few lines of code to allow for the landsmeet to be called without the templars and mages if the bloodmage were revealed -- especially since that would have required even more QA testing.  And they were fast running out of money.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 décembre 2010 - 01:46 .