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[mousestalker]

Arguing with our bearded friend seldom ends well. He is badger like in his determination to ignore any evidence that contradicts his pet theories.

Wynne is a flawed character. Which is part of what makes the writing so good. Just how flawed is open to debate, which is what we're having here, but she isn't at one extreme or the other.

Modifié par mousestalker, 14 décembre 2010 - 04:07 .

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...
Edit; I just find it unlikely that that scene was cut because someone felt it was out of character given how hectic things obviously were towards the end of DAO production.  Things like no dialog for Gray Warden Alistair towards the end.  Morrigan's personal quest being changed significantly -- the complexity taken out of it in favor of something that took far less coding.  It's just hard to believe that a little scene, already in, had someone saying, 'woops, taht is really out of character, let's take it out."  More likely, someone testing had a bloodmage, couldn't call the landsmeet, and QA decided to make that scene unable to trigger rather than write a few lines of code to allow for the landsmeet to be called without the templars and mages if the bloodmage were revealed -- especially since that would have required even more QA testing.  And they were fast running out of money.

Ah, there goes my pet theory.

As for Wynne refusing to become First Enchanter: She's living on borrowed time, sustained by a benevolent Fade spririt. That's not a condition you'd want to take over such and important position. Imagine her secret is revealed, it would hurt the reputation of the Circle. Instead she asks the Hero of Ferelden to lead the Circle. Sounds like a pragmatic decision to me, something that can only benefit the Circle in the long run.

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...
I appreciate that there is a possibility she will reveal your being a blood mage, however, the scene also crappily written and makes little sense. You can annul the Circle on the off-chance there might be blood mages but seconds before (or after) this decision the Knight-Commander and Irving are fine with that, just because you helped them and claim to be a Grey Warden.

Irving and Greagoir are worried about abominations, not so much blood mages.  Greagoir says "if even one abomination got out..."  It's Cullen who is paranoid about blood mages.

[Giggles_Manically]

Ah yes "Wynne" the supposed wise mentor of the Circle of Mages, who dispenses words of wisdom and resides in Fereldan. Ah we have ignored that sanctimonious and hypocritical claim.

[nos_astra]

Addai67 wrote...
Irving and Greagoir are worried about abominations, not so much blood mages.  Greagoir says "if even one abomination got out..."  It's Cullen who is paranoid about blood mages.

Greagoir is slacking at his job.

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

As for Wynne refusing to become First Enchanter: She's living on borrowed time, sustained by a benevolent Fade spririt. That's not a condition you'd want to take over such and important position. Imagine her secret is revealed, it would hurt the reputation of the Circle. Instead she asks the Hero of Ferelden to lead the Circle. Sounds like a pragmatic decision to me, something that can only benefit the Circle in the long run.

I thought she was asked to be first enchanter before Ostegar.  In fact, I'm sure of it.  Here is what her codex says:

She spent many years mentoring apprentices within the Circle, and her peers thought so highly of her that she was asked to be First Enchanter Irving's successor, but she refused, saying that she had no desire to work in the upper echelons. When word reached the tower of King Cailan's call to arms, Wynne volunteered to go to Ostagar.

She just didn't WANT to do it.  Even though she felt changes needed to be made, she refused to be the one to make them.  But!  She wanted the mage warden to go back, despite being a gray warden (and all she lectured on and on about that) and become first enchanter as well and make those changes that Wynne thought someone (not her) should spearhead, not even asking or caring if the warden even held the same beliefs, and disapproved of it if the warden didn't want to do so.

I think Wynne just likes the way her advice sounds -- she thinks she knows what is right for others, even if she cannot/will not follow her own advice on duty, responsibility etc.  I don't blame her for not wanting to -- I just don't think she should preach on about things she either doesn't know about or wouldn't live up to herself.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 décembre 2010 - 04:44 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Try playing a mage warden who romances Zevran.

If you can stand listening to that harping then you are by far more patient than I.

[Wulfram]

Possibly Wynne doesn't think she'd be a good first enchanter?

[ejoslin]

Wulfram wrote...

Possibly Wynne doesn't think she'd be a good first enchanter?

 

well, I wouldn't disagree with that -- I think she'd be a terrible first enchanter -- but that's not the reason her codex states.  it says she has no desire to work in the upper echelon, not that she thought she wouldn't be good at it.  

Isn't it nice that the magewarden got Irving as their mentor?  He's a much better mentor, i think

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 décembre 2010 - 04:50 .

[Wulfram]

Irving's a manipulative bastard whose poor decisions result in both of the major abomination outbreaks.in the game.

[ejoslin]

Wulfram wrote...

Irving's a manipulative bastard whose poor decisions result in both of the major abomination outbreaks.in the game.

Very true, but at least he's not sanctimonious!    

i wonder who Jowan's mentor was...

Edit: what, what?  What other abomination outbreak aside from the circle tower was Irving's fault?  the only two i can think of off hand are the circle tower and connor.  Connor was hardly Irving's fault, unless VERY indirectly.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 décembre 2010 - 05:01 .

[IanPolaris]

As for the scene, I think ejosin has the right of it. I HAVE completed the game as intended with the bloodmage confrontation, and you need exactly two console commands (neither of which contradict what you have done) to enable the landsmeet to be called without either Templar or Mage support. That being so, it seems to me that the deactivation of the scene (it was never deleted) was done literally at the last minute and the scene is in character for Wynne when you compare it with the other scenes in which she goes ballistic.



I also note at the end of the Mage Prologue that Duncan says (if you stayed loyal to Jowan) to Gregoire that there are worse things than Bloodmages and neither Irving nor Gregoire disagree.



Duncan is quite open about how the Grey Wardens tolerate Bloodmage. So is Avernus. For that matter during Soldier's Peak when Levi Dryden exhibits shock that the Grey Wardens summoned demons, you can say, "The Grey Wardens don't forbid bloodmagic. Anything to win" and Alistair doesn't say a word in contradiction. Even Alistair alludes to it when he says the Grey Wardens can do some pretty extreme things (during Ostagar if you talk with him).



In short, if Wynne knew a tenth of what she thought she knew about Grey Wardens, she never should have tried to rat out the Warden who JUST SAVED HER BACON in the first place (and both Irving and Gregoire know it).



Like I said earlier, that one scene has forever poisoned my regard for Wynne. For all playthroughs.



-Polaris

[Wulfram]

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: what, what?  What other abomination outbreak aside from the circle tower was Irving's fault?  the only two i can think of off hand are the circle tower and connor.  Connor was hardly Irving's fault, unless VERY indirectly.

Jowan was free because Irving played silly games with a potential blood mage.  Admittedly there's plenty of blame to go around in that case.

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: what, what?  What other abomination outbreak aside from the circle tower was Irving's fault?  the only two i can think of off hand are the circle tower and connor.  Connor was hardly Irving's fault, unless VERY indirectly.

Jowan was free because Irving played silly games with a potential blood mage.  Admittedly there's plenty of blame to go around in that case.

True., but the primary/majority of the blame for Redcliffe has to fall on Arlessa Isolde.  If she handn't hired Jowan, she would have hired another Apostate and would have done so with Logain which means the same think likely would have happened anyway even without Jowan.

-Polaris

[ejoslin]

Wulfram wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: what, what?  What other abomination outbreak aside from the circle tower was Irving's fault?  the only two i can think of off hand are the circle tower and connor.  Connor was hardly Irving's fault, unless VERY indirectly.

Jowan was free because Irving played silly games with a potential blood mage.  Admittedly there's plenty of blame to go around in that case.

Oh, jeez, and Lily was to blame because she was snooping and found out about Jowan's harrowing and told him.

No, you can't put Connor on Irving.  I'm fairly sure that if it wasn't Jowan, Loghain would have found someone else to sneak into the castle and poison Eamon (maybe bribed a servant).  Connor was possessed because Connor was a mage and Connor was desperate to save his father.

Edit: And it's a huge sidetrack from the fact that Wynne had this impossibly high expectations of the warden -- higher than she herself was willing to live up to.

wynne wanted things done but was unwilling to work for them.  Instead, she expected a magewarden to embrace her beliefs and make those changes instead, while at the same time fulfilling her duties as a gray warden i suppose (maybe Wynne thought all real gray warden responsibility ended when there wasn't a blight? I don't know).

second edit:

Wynne:  Yes dear, after you finish defeating the blight -- IF you survive, of course -- then go back to the circle and make it the way I think it should be.  Oh, don't worry about being lonely -- love is for the selfish anyway.  And my dreams are of course most important.  YES I could have been in a position to make changes, but dear, i didn't want to. Adventuring and fighting is far more interesting! Which is why you can't be selfish and keep adventuring.  Besides, when there's no blight, a Gray Warden mage should be locked in the tower, not with the Gray Wardens.  (said kindly, patiently; she knows what will give the warden the most fulfillment).

*grin* I am teasing here!

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 décembre 2010 - 05:18 .

[IanPolaris]

Hearing what Wynne's Friend "Inus the Botonist" has to say about her in Awakenings is almost (almost) worth letting Wynne live. Her (Inus') words describe Wynne far better than I ever could.



-Polaris

[rak72]

Poor Wynn, her love threads always turn to hate. I would have more sympathy for her if she wasn't flirting with my fiance right in front of my face.

[Wulfram]

Wynne tries to makes changes by teaching people, not by leading them

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

As for the scene, I think ejosin has the right of it. I HAVE completed the game as intended with the bloodmage confrontation, and you need exactly two console commands (neither of which contradict what you have done) to enable the landsmeet to be called without either Templar or Mage support. That being so, it seems to me that the deactivation of the scene (it was never deleted) was done literally at the last minute and the scene is in character for Wynne when you compare it with the other scenes in which she goes ballistic.

-Polaris

Well, it's a bit more complex because even though it is reasonably easy to actually write the code (I think adding in one or two more lines would allow you to call it with the condition that is set), you then have to write a bit more dialog.  If there is no Ferelden circle, you can't very well ask for the circle to be freed.  And then, of course, the epilogue cards.  You'd have to write at least one more about how the chantry sent whomever to start rebuilding (as Irving, Gregoir, and Cullen are all dead).

[ejoslin]

Wulfram wrote...

Wynne tries to makes changes by teaching people, not by leading them

Those who can't do, teach?  The problem is, of course, is she does have these expectations that are more than she herself can live up to.  she thinks what she says sounds good, but she forgets the very human factor involved.

Do you really teach anyone anything by making them feel they should take on even more than they ever possibly could?  Do you really teach anyone anything by insisting that they're not allowed happiness or freedom (a Gray warden has far more freedom than a circle mage ever does)?  Do you teach anyone anything by telling them they should take on far more than you ever were willing to take on?  

she likes to talk, she likes to hear what she has to say, even if what she is saying is really nothing at all.  It's ok, too.

Edit: The warden has the weight of the world on his/her shoulders.  They're doing what needs to be done.  Hounding them, no matter how sweet the tone of voice, is not really that helpful.  though Wynne does have her nice moments as well.  Unfortunately, she ruins them by making them into another nag session

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 décembre 2010 - 05:35 .

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

Wynne tries to makes changes by teaching people, not by leading them

Part of teaching is setting a good example though.....

-Polaris

[nos_astra]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Wynne tries to makes changes by teaching people, not by leading them

Part of teaching is setting a good example though.....

-Polaris

I think she can do that. You don't need to be perfect to have admirable traits that can serve as a good example.

[IanPolaris]

ejoslin wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

As for the scene, I think ejosin has the right of it. I HAVE completed the game as intended with the bloodmage confrontation, and you need exactly two console commands (neither of which contradict what you have done) to enable the landsmeet to be called without either Templar or Mage support. That being so, it seems to me that the deactivation of the scene (it was never deleted) was done literally at the last minute and the scene is in character for Wynne when you compare it with the other scenes in which she goes ballistic.

-Polaris

Well, it's a bit more complex because even though it is reasonably easy to actually write the code (I think adding in one or two more lines would allow you to call it with the condition that is set), you then have to write a bit more dialog.  If there is no Ferelden circle, you can't very well ask for the circle to be freed.  And then, of course, the epilogue cards.  You'd have to write at least one more about how the chantry sent whomever to start rebuilding (as Irving, Gregoir, and Cullen are all dead).

A bit more complex but not much more.  The game itself can be played pretty much as intended if the confrantation occures and the tower is destroyed.  With two console commands (that don't override anything you've actually done), the game plays correctly.  Thus the only thing missing is the extra Epilog Card and Dialog option and we can't be talking about more than a couple of lines of dialog here.  Seems to me that this was a part of the game that was disabled at the last minute after being 99% complete.

My own suspicion is that DG didn't want the long term story/political headache of what would happen afterwords if a Grey Warden was an open bloodmage, defied the chantry openly and made it stick.  I sort of suspect that is what mageHawke will wind up doing in DA2.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Wynne tries to makes changes by teaching people, not by leading them

Part of teaching is setting a good example though.....

-Polaris

I think she can do that. You don't need to be perfect to have admirable traits that can serve as a good example.

I don't consider being blatently hypocritical as setting a good example.  Do you?

-Polaris

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Wynne tries to makes changes by teaching people, not by leading them

Part of teaching is setting a good example though.....

-Polaris

I think she can do that. You don't need to be perfect to have admirable traits that can serve as a good example.

I don't expect perfection.  The problem is, Wynne seems to.  Granted, the warden has less room in which to slip -- but there's no indication that the warden is in any way, shape or form slacking in their duties.  

the warden is already putting ferelden above themselves -- even if they're not from Ferelden or if Ferelden has been nothing but horrible to them. 

In the case of a magewarden -- after the blight is over, Wynne wants them to put aside the Gray Wardens and go back to the circle -- give up a life of freedom and adventure to try to change the circle the way Wynne wants it changed.  And she gets quite upset if you disagree with her.

Also, Wynne, if you don't just give her the lip service, does say some VERY nasty things.