323 réponses à ce sujet

[BlazingSpeed]

Zjarcal wrote...

BlazingSpeed wrote...
Does Wynne have any other dialog taken out besides the BM encounter? 

As far as I know, no, that's the only dialog that was taken out. Also, how do you intend to handle the confrontation? You only need the fix if you are exposed as a blood mage and kill everyone in there.

I'm actually not sure yet as this will be my first female PC (giggles has me curious about a female mage now...) I'm also curious about Zervan as all my male PC's immediately shoot him down at any flattery attempts it's hard enough keeping Morrigan and Leliana from going at it. And even though I'm just a friend with Leliana this time around she's still harping on my PC about "wading in the swamp" it doesn't help that I have no points in corceion (sp) at the moment either.

If I do off everyone (poor Irving...) then I may just use Polaris' console codes since I like to role play and having (unneeded...) Templar/Mage support mysteriously show up at the end wouldn't make much sense if the elven Zelda look a like slaughtered them all back at the tower.

[errant_knight]

I haven't played a mage to that point, so I can't tell you, sorry.... Have you checked the toolkit to see what the triggers are?

[IanPolaris]

errant_knight wrote...

I haven't played a mage to that point, so I can't tell you, sorry.... Have you checked the toolkit to see what the triggers are?

The default game has the triggers disabled.  There is a mod that re-enables those triggers.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Sabariel wrote...

sleepingbelow wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
An abomination is what happens when a demon possesses a human or an
elf (or a mage). What evidence is there exactly that Wynne was possessed
by a demon? She shows no signs of demonic possession.

Well, there was the time she went all super saiyan during that darkspawn ambush.  But that was sort of cool.

Anyway, I think the logic goes: if a spirit attempts to enter the mortal world through a mortal, it is a demon.

So, blah blah blah, if a demon occupies a mortal's body, they are possessed.  There is a spirit in Wynne.  Blah blah.

The practical definition of a demon in DA really seems to be any spirit that is interested in getting up in your fleshy grill.

And? Look at Sophia, Connor, and Amalia. Does Wynne ever talk like Sophia or Connor or Amalia? Does anyone close to Wynne ever say: "Gee, Wynne. You've changed."?

Flemeth is an abomination and she talks perfectly normally.  For that matter so does Uldred when you meet him in the tower (until he shows his pride-demon form).  The point is that powerful abominations can not be detected by sight and don't always (or need to have) the weird reverbo voice you refer to.  The most dangerous ones, in fact, do not.

So Wynne could easily be a Pride Abomination and the others might never be the wiser and IMHO this is precisely what did happen.

Then there's this little tidbit:

However, the spirits that are not demons are, in fact, benevolent. There are spirits of Compassion, Justice, Valor
and Fortitude, among others. Unlike demons, these benevolent spirits
do not wish to cross the veil, and their benevolence does not mean that
they will go out of their way to help the mortal world. However, if
someone such as a Spirit Healer does summon them, they will try to help.

Again, what evidence is there that it was a demon that possessed Wynne and not a spirit?

Spirits don't willingly possess mortal bodies.  Demons do.

-Polaris

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: what, what?  What other abomination outbreak aside from the circle tower was Irving's fault?  the only two i can think of off hand are the circle tower and connor.  Connor was hardly Irving's fault, unless VERY indirectly.

Jowan was free because Irving played silly games with a potential blood mage.  Admittedly there's plenty of blame to go around in that case.

Oh, jeez, and Lily was to blame because she was snooping and found out about Jowan's harrowing and told him.

No, you can't put Connor on Irving.  I'm fairly sure that if it wasn't Jowan, Loghain would have found someone else to sneak into the castle and poison Eamon (maybe bribed a servant).  Connor was possessed because Connor was a mage and Connor was desperate to save his father.

Edit: And it's a huge sidetrack from the fact that Wynne had this impossibly high expectations of the warden -- higher than she herself was willing to live up to.

wynne wanted things done but was unwilling to work for them.  Instead, she expected a magewarden to embrace her beliefs and make those changes instead, while at the same time fulfilling her duties as a gray warden i suppose (maybe Wynne thought all real gray warden responsibility ended when there wasn't a blight? I don't know).

second edit:

Wynne:  Yes dear, after you finish defeating the blight -- IF you survive, of course -- then go back to the circle and make it the way I think it should be.  Oh, don't worry about being lonely -- love is for the selfish anyway.  And my dreams are of course most important.  YES I could have been in a position to make changes, but dear, i didn't want to. Adventuring and fighting is far more interesting! Which is why you can't be selfish and keep adventuring.  Besides, when there's no blight, a Gray Warden mage should be locked in the tower, not with the Gray Wardens.  (said kindly, patiently; she knows what will give the warden the most fulfillment).

*grin* I am teasing here!

(husband)

Exactly!   And copy and paste the same template when it comes to having romantic relationships.



Those who can't do, teach?  The problem is, of course, is she does have these expectations that are more than she herself can live up to.  she thinks what she says sounds good, but she forgets the very human factor involved

Couldn't agree more.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 décembre 2010 - 07:45 .

[Sabariel]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

sleepingbelow wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
An abomination is what happens when a demon possesses a human or an
elf (or a mage). What evidence is there exactly that Wynne was possessed
by a demon? She shows no signs of demonic possession.

Well, there was the time she went all super saiyan during that darkspawn ambush.  But that was sort of cool.

Anyway, I think the logic goes: if a spirit attempts to enter the mortal world through a mortal, it is a demon.

So, blah blah blah, if a demon occupies a mortal's body, they are possessed.  There is a spirit in Wynne.  Blah blah.

The practical definition of a demon in DA really seems to be any spirit that is interested in getting up in your fleshy grill.

And? Look at Sophia, Connor, and Amalia. Does Wynne ever talk like Sophia or Connor or Amalia? Does anyone close to Wynne ever say: "Gee, Wynne. You've changed."?

Flemeth is an abomination and she talks perfectly normally.  For that matter so does Uldred when you meet him in the tower (until he shows his pride-demon form).  The point is that powerful abominations can not be detected by sight and don't always (or need to have) the weird reverbo voice you refer to.  The most dangerous ones, in fact, do not.

So Wynne could easily be a Pride Abomination and the others might never be the wiser and IMHO this is precisely what did happen.

Then there's this little tidbit:

However, the spirits that are not demons are, in fact, benevolent. There are spirits of Compassion, Justice, Valor
and Fortitude, among others. Unlike demons, these benevolent spirits
do not wish to cross the veil, and their benevolence does not mean that
they will go out of their way to help the mortal world. However, if
someone such as a Spirit Healer does summon them, they will try to help.

Again, what evidence is there that it was a demon that possessed Wynne and not a spirit?

Spirits don't willingly possess mortal bodies.  Demons do.

-Polaris

Flemeth showed power that Wynne couldn't even hope of. And perhaps it's just me, but I didn't find Flemeth or Uldred all that normal when speaking.

Spirits will help if summoned. Perhaps a spirit saw Wynne in the Fade and thought she was cute or perhaps it was a spirit that was curious about the mortal world or maybe Wynne involuntarily called out for help as she was dying and a spirit took pity on her. Just because most spirits choose not to possess people doesn't mean they can't. Justice was forced into possessing Kristoff's dead body. Does that make him a demon? No.

[IanPolaris]

Sabariel wrote...

Flemeth showed power that Wynne couldn't even hope of. And perhaps it's just me, but I didn't find Flemeth or
Uldred all that normal when speaking.

Flemeth sounded human enough to me.  So did Uldred.  Compare his voice in the tower as compared with his brief line during the King's Briefing in Ostagar.  The voice is identical in both.

In short, abominations can be virtually undetectable.  In this Cullen is dead right.

Spirits will help if summoned. Perhaps a spirit saw Wynne in the Fade and thought she was cute or perhaps it was a spirit that was curious about the mortal world or maybe Wynne involuntarily called out for help as she was dying and a spirit took pity on her. Just because most spirits choose not to possess people doesn't mean they can't. Justice was forced into possessing Kristoff's dead body. Does that make him a demon? No.

A demon is just a spirit that possesses poeple and has such wonderful and lively personalities.  At least per Anders and Anders being a spirit mage himself with lots of Fade Experience knows what he's about.  Even Justice in awakenings is forced to admit that when a spirit starts to want things beyond it's ken, it's on the fast track to becoming a demon.

The bottom line is this:  Does a spirit possess Wynne's body?

Yes.

Ergo, under Chantry Law, she is an abomination.  The Chantry isn't known for making exceptions.

-Polaris

[Sabariel]

So when Flemeth was basically talking to herself and about her stockings you found that perfectly normal? Oookay then...

An abomination is demon + person, not spirit + person. There is a difference. Demons and spirits are different as we see right in the game. Justice and Desire were not the same entities at all.

And for someone who seems pretty anti-Chantry I'm surprised you would blindly classify Wynne as an abomination just as they would.

Modifié par Sabariel, 15 décembre 2010 - 09:03 .

[IanPolaris]

Sabariel wrote...

So when Flemeth was basically talking to herself and about her stockings you found that perfectly normal? Oookay then...

An abomination is demon + person, not spirit + person. There is a difference. Demons and spirits are different as we see right in the game. Justice and Desire were not the same entities at all.

And for someone who seems pretty anti-Chantry I'm surprised you would blindly classify Wynne as an abomination just as they would.

Flemeth has lived essentially alone for centuries.  That makes her a bit cracked, but there was NOTHING in her voice that indicated she was an abomination and I challenge anyone with any honestly to say otherwise.  The same applies to Uldred in the tower.  Unless you already knew he was an abomination at this point, there is no way you could tell.  Cullen makes that point abundantly clear and in this one point he's right.

As for the Chantry, they are not known for making distinctions.  The chantry doesn't recognize the difference between a spirit possessing a person and a demon possessing a person and in this case it's the Chantry's opinion that matters.  Also given that even Wynne doesn't know the spirit's motivation and given that only demons have a desire to possess bodies (Justice was a fluke accident in Awakenings), how can we know that it's not a Demon.  I sure don't (and in fact I do think it's a pride demon).

The point is that anyone that is possessed by a spirit will be regarded as an abomination by the Chantry and their's is the only opinion that matters in this regard since they set the legal standard.

-Polaris

[Sabariel]

Living alone did not "crack" Flemeth. If she were a normal human being I would buy that, but since she isn't, I don't. Also, Morrigan says that her mother is not an abomination, but something much worse so bringing Flemeth into this was a bit pointless anyway.

The Chantry's opinion matters not a lick to me. They would classify Wynne as an abomination only in ignorance. Wynne is not an abomination. She is something entirely new. There isn't even any evidence that the spirit actually possessed her. Perhaps she is just a "Fade conductor" and the spirit works its magic from its realm.

Wynne never talks like an abomination. Uldred, Connor, Sophia, and Amalia were all about longing and wanting as that is what demons are about.

Furthermore why would a demon care to revive a dead old woman when healthy, alive Petra was standing right there? Saving Wynne was a compassionate act, not a malevolent and self-serving one.

Modifié par Sabariel, 15 décembre 2010 - 10:02 .

[IanPolaris]

Sabariel wrote...

Living alone did not "crack" Flemeth. If she were a normal human being I would buy that, but since she isn't I don't. Also, Morrigan says that her mother is not an abomination, but something much worse so bringing Flemeth into this was a bit pointless anyway.

As far as we know Flemeth is an abomination and pretty much all the source material agrees.  However, when you meet her, she does not have any unnatural speech patterns or any other indication that she is anything other than a cracked woman living in a swamp...possibly an apostate.

The Chantry's opinion matters not a lick to me. They would classify Wynne as an abomination only in ignorance. Wynne is not an abomination. She is something entirely new. There isn't even any evidence that the spirit actually possessed her. Perhaps she is just a "Fade conductor" and the spirit works its magic from its realm.

The Chantry's opinion is the only one that matters in this case since they get to decide what is and is not legally an abomination.  That's sorta the point.  In fact I suspect that not all abominations have to be 'evil' but it's not something I'd care to test by experiment since the overwhelming majority certainly are.  That's the whole point.  Wynne is in danger from the very templars and chantry she is loyal to.  The irony is a bit overwhelming really.

Wynne never talks like an abomination. Uldred, Connor, Sophia, and Amalia were all about longing and wanting as that is what demons are about.

Neither does the Great Oak.  For that matter you are wrong about Uldred.  Uldred speaks exactly the same way (in terms of voice and timbre) as he did in Ostagar.   Also the key thing is possession.  You don't have to have longing and wanting and certainly don't have to show it to be an abomination....and indeed the very cleverest of demons will make a point not to show it.

Furthermore why would a demon care to revive a dead old woman when healthy, alive Petra was standing right there? Saving Wynne was a compassionate act, not a malevolent and self-serving one.

Never assume that an act of healing is automatically beneficial.  Wynne is a powerful and experience mage whose resistance to fade spirits is suspect at best (see the Fade Dream...Wynne was fooled in a way that no competant mage should have been).  Wynne is also an important person in the tower and a senior enchanter.   Perfect Prey....and if the demon can trick her into letting it in under the ruse of a "good" spirit, so much the better.

-Polaris

[Sabariel]

Except the source material that is Morrigan, probably the only person who truly knows Flemeth, disagrees with the whole "Flemeth is an abomination" thing. And perhaps you only thought Flemeth was a weird lady living in a swamp, but I did not, especially after she saves the Wardens from Ishal.

Your reasoning of "Wynne is abomination because the Chantry would say so" is absolutely ridiculous. If there is no demonic possession then there is no abomination. Then they're something else. Spirit Holders, if you will.

That's because the Great Oak isn't an abomination either. And Uldred's whole speech in the Tower is about longing to be something more evolved and powerful. Everyone possessed by a demon speaks of longing for something or wanting something. Wynne never speaks of that because she is not possessed by a demon.

Wynne's position in the Tower wouldn't matter to a demon. They don't seem to care about possessing someone powerful either (Connor/Amalia/Sophia). Petra, alive and well, was standing right there. If the entity was a demon it would have taken her instead. If perhaps Wynne was the only one around I could see a demon healing her and taking over, but there was a healthy specimen standing right there to possess.

Modifié par Sabariel, 15 décembre 2010 - 10:26 .

[Rykoth]

The Wynne hate makes me laugh, seriously.

I can understand some folks not liking unwanted advice. Nobody wants unwanted advice from an elder about something they know little about, but guess what it happens. Now, how many of you Wynne haters knife your grandmother because they gave unwanted advice? I'd be rather disturbed if anyone did. Then again, I'm a little disturbed that anyone would knife Wynne for giving out unwanted advice.

As for the Blood Mages? HELLO, Mcfly!!

Forget for a moment the plotholes made by writers. Focus entirely on a perfect scenario. WTF is wrong with Wynne? Seriously. Nothing. Nothing at all.

If you make the conscious choice to be evil, you should pay the price. If that means Wynne turns on you for defiling a holy site (and nobody seems to bark at Leliana for doing the same thing), or trying to turn you in for being a blood mage (would you really trust the Grey Warden when he reveals he's a blood mage, in a tower that was nearly taken over by blood mages?) - I'm sorry but that's Wynne following her convictions.

Think about it in real life terms. My analogies might be in correct.
The Templar is the government in this analogy.
The Mages are the special agents, watched over and handled by the government.
Blood Mages and Apostates are rogue operatives, who, 9 times out of 10, are traitorous bastards

With is a loyal agent going to do with a rogue agent? Probably kill it, or turn it in. An Apostate is a rogue agent, a Blood Mage is a rogue agent who uses murder as a way to get his job done. Not just killing the enemy, but murdering them with sacrifices of blood.

Wynne has a damn good reason to go after anyone who supports Apostates. They threaten the organization of the Mage Tower, even if its a Grey Warden, after all, a Mage Warden can request the circle be freed, which in itself is pretty huge/controversial.

[ejoslin]

oh dear, now Wynne = grandmother argument. No, I wouldn't knife either of my dearly departed grandmothers, even if they still were alive.



Not all elderly people give advice. In fact, most elderly people i know do NOT assume they know more than everyone else and give bad advice regarding things they do not know. Maybe it's because most people I know (elderly or not) are quite well educated, and understand that they are not experts at everything.



As far as turning you in for being a blood mage after you save the circle? Especially since both Gregoir and Irving try to cover for you -- it's only Wynne pushing it that causes it to come to a head.



And I see plenty of people talk about Leliana's reaction to the Urn. Of course, you can intimidate her into stepping down, so that helps.



I find it interesting that Wynne, if she survives and you do Shale's personal quest, ends up fleeing the circle herself. She definitely wants more freedom than she feels that other mages should have.

[Reaverwind]

@Rykoth:

You presume too much in concluding that those who dislike Wynne are usually playing "evil" characters.

I'd respect Wynne's stance on blood magic if she actually had one. Fact is, she's all too happy to accept a blood mage's help until the Crisis in the Tower is resolved in favor of the mages. She puts up a token protest if you allow Caladruis to proceed with his ritual - but does she walk? NO.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 15 décembre 2010 - 02:32 .

[Wulfram]

How is Wynne fleeing the circle? She's travelling to visit another circle, to take advantage of their magical expertise.

[ejoslin]

Wulfram wrote...

How is Wynne fleeing the circle? She's travelling to visit another circle, to take advantage of their magical expertise.

Tevinter chantry is very different from the rest of Thedas.  Blood magic is openly practiced there.  There's a huge schism.  this is NOT like going and visiting the circle in Antiva.  this is TEVINTER!

Edit; then of course, there is THIS slide...

Wynne remained in service to the throne of Ferelden for a time, politely refusing the position of first enchanter when it was offered to her. After almost a year, she quietly collected her things and announced that she was journeying to see more of the world before her time came... and then she was gone.

Looks like she fled the circle to me!  I guess this was the second time she was offered the first enchanter position as her codex makes it sound like she was offered it before ostegar as well.

Edit; wow, this slide TOO!

Wynne returned to the Circle of Magi, but only for a short time. After several months, her quarters were found empty. She was gone without explanation or apology. The templars were told to look out for her, although no active search has yet been ordered.

Wynne the Apostate?

The slides are triggered by the warden doing the ultimate sacrifice.  the first one is if she's at least warm, the second if she is neutral or hostile.  gah, so doing her personal quest doesn't change much for her at all, does it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 décembre 2010 - 02:40 .

[Wulfram]

Tevinter banned blood magic when it joined the chantry.

edit: as for those slides, Wynne doesn't think she has much time left and is likely leaving to die.

Modifié par Wulfram, 15 décembre 2010 - 02:44 .

[ejoslin]

Wulfram wrote...

Tevinter banned blood magic when it joined the chantry.

But her other endings definitely show her fleeing the circle

The Tevinter blood mages you find seem to be practicing quite openly (slavers).

And again, there's a HUGE schism between the Tevinter chantry and the Thedas chantry.  It really is not this innocent thing you seem to be implying.  What type of magic do you think can restore a golem back to dwarven form?  What kind of magic is THAT powerful?  Not Thedas circle magic for sure.

Edit: So fleeing the circle is ok if you think you're going to die soon.  But don't most mages, and apprentice mages for that matter, have reason to have that fear?  I mean, the harrowing kills a lot of them.  Templars they fear completely (more evident in the books).

Or is it only ok for Wynne to flee the circle when she thinks she's close to dying?

second edit:

I'm going over the codex entries regarding the imperium chantry and i don't see anything about bloodmagic being forbidden.  It doesn't mean it's not there, but I'm NOT reading it.  Tevinter has the circle of magi running the country basically, and there are far fewer rules about magic.  I'll keep reading I guess and edit this if I find it.

Edit: I need a break from reading these codex entires.  I still haven't found the one that says Tevinter forbids blood magic, but I'm not saying it doesn't exist either.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 décembre 2010 - 02:58 .

[Reaverwind]

ejoslin wrote...

Edit; wow, this slide TOO!

Wynne returned to the Circle of Magi, but only for a short time. After several months, her quarters were found empty. She was gone without explanation or apology. The templars were told to look out for her, although no active search has yet been ordered.

Wynne the Apostate?

The slides are triggered by the warden doing the ultimate sacrifice.  the first one is if she's at least warm, the second if she is neutral or hostile.  gah, so doing her personal quest doesn't change much for her at all, does it.

What slides trigger if you refuse to take Wynne? I usually boot her as soon as the game allows in the Tower, so she ends up in the party camp. I dislike having to kill bystanders to avoid taking her in the party in the first place.

[ejoslin]

You only get slides for party members you recruited, and only if you do the ultimate sacrifice for party members who are not your love interest.

Though after looking through the US slides, "friendly" isn't a trigger -- so the personal quest comment I made regarding wynne isn't relevant.  She still ends up fleeing the circle, though.  Very interesting.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 décembre 2010 - 02:56 .

[Wulfram]

Wynne says the Tevinter Imperium banned blood magic when she's talking about the Litany of Adralla. Though her story of the Litany is very different from what's in the codex

[ejoslin]

Wulfram wrote...

Wynne says the Tevinter Imperium banned blood magic when she's talking about the Litany of Adralla. Though her story of the Litany is very different from what's in the codex

Oh, but honestly, Wynne often speaks with the voice of authority on things she really doesn't know much about.  So I would need another source.  She certainly does think Tevinter is the place to go to find out about a ritual, a blood ritual, to give shale back her mortality.

Edit: In fact, what the codex says about that is very telling and more supports that blood magic is allowed in tevinter.  This is a copy/paste from the wiki because i'm lazy.  I'm not taking out the links  


Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice. A deeply pious mage, she was renowned in her day for having found a counter to every form of mind control, a defense against dream walkers, and even counter-spells to demonic summons.

Her efforts went unappreciated in her native Tevinter, however. After three different magisters attempted to have her killed, she fled the country, choosing to take refuge in the land of Blessed Andrate's birth. She spent the remainder of her days with the Circle in Ferelden.

The Litany of Adralla disrupts the casting of mind control spells. Use the Litany whenever a creature tries to dominate another with magic, and it will interrupt the casting. Once the spell is in effect and a character is under a blood mage's power, it is too late.
--From Codex Entry: The Litany of Adralla

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 décembre 2010 - 03:02 .

[Reaverwind]

Wulfram wrote...

Wynne says the Tevinter Imperium banned blood magic when she's talking about the Litany of Adralla. Though her story of the Litany is very different from what's in the codex

Considering that her tales of the Wardens also differ from what you hear from other Wardens, let alone other sources, it makes what she has to say rather suspect. She certainly likes to spin her yarns!