323 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonia]

I always got the impression that blood magic wasn't necessarily "allowed" in Tevinter but most folks turned a blind eye to those practicing it. Sort of like how people still drank alcohol during Prohibition in the US.

[Wulfram]

If Wynne was planning on running away to take up with a bunch of blood mages, she'd hardly discuss it casually in front of a bunch of party guests.

I don't really see why redwarfing Shale would necessarily require blood magic. Spirit and Creation look like the applicable schools to me.

[ejoslin]

Wulfram wrote...

If Wynne was planning on running away to take up with a bunch of blood mages, she'd hardly discuss it casually in front of a bunch of party guests.
I don't really see why redwarfing Shale would necessarily require blood magic. Spirit and Creation look like the applicable schools to me.

I see you're avoiding the issue where she is, most likely forever, leaving the circle -- giving herself a freedom that is not allowed to circle mages -- a freedom that she does not think should be afforded to mages.  Whether she's going to Tevinter with Shale or just leaving on her own (and at least in one instance completely without permission), she is, well, leaving the circle.  The very thing she feels all other mages should not be allowed to do.

Of course, this only happens in 4 out of 5 possible endings for her, that she flees the circle, and to be fair, only one of those five has her clearly as an apostate.  The fifth has her well under chantry control, working in the royal court.

Edit: This is not really a bad thing, though.  I have said repeatedly that she holds the warden up to a higher standard than she herself holds herself to.  And that is the main problem with her advice -- she knows what sounds good and noble, but seems to not realize that people are not ideals.

Wynne is not evil, bad, meanspirited or anything.  She also isn't very wise and is hypocritical, as most people to a certain extent are.  The problem I have is she sets herself up as counselor, without knowing much of what she's talking about, and tries to get someone who is already stretching themselves to limits that most people could not do, and try to convince them that they're not allowed to be humans, but must forever be on stage.  I would think that kind of advice, if followed, would do far more harm than good.

There's helpful advice.  there's supportive advice.  Hell, there's just being supportive.  And then there is pushing people beyond reasonable limits.  I think Wynne realizes at the end that the warden is a person, and extraordinary person, but still just a person who is, surprisingly, competent.

second edit; the reason I think it's possibly blood magic is twofold, though.  First off, it's Tevinter.  Secondly, that it would be exceptionally powerful magic -- and blood magic is always touted as the most powerful magic there is.  It doesn't outright say it, though.  But you're giving blood back to something as well, though, not just fixing. Who knows.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 décembre 2010 - 04:35 .

[errant_knight]

I thought you guys moved over to the hate thread? Or are you just going to juggle both?

[Addai]

Rykoth wrote...

The Wynne hate makes me laugh, seriously.

I can understand some folks not liking unwanted advice. Nobody wants unwanted advice from an elder about something they know little about, but guess what it happens. Now, how many of you Wynne haters knife your grandmother because they gave unwanted advice? I'd be rather disturbed if anyone did. Then again, I'm a little disturbed that anyone would knife Wynne for giving out unwanted advice.

As for the Blood Mages? HELLO, Mcfly!!

Forget for a moment the plotholes made by writers. Focus entirely on a perfect scenario. WTF is wrong with Wynne? Seriously. Nothing. Nothing at all.

If you make the conscious choice to be evil, you should pay the price. If that means Wynne turns on you for defiling a holy site (and nobody seems to bark at Leliana for doing the same thing), or trying to turn you in for being a blood mage (would you really trust the Grey Warden when he reveals he's a blood mage, in a tower that was nearly taken over by blood mages?) - I'm sorry but that's Wynne following her convictions.

Think about it in real life terms. My analogies might be in correct.
The Templar is the government in this analogy.
The Mages are the special agents, watched over and handled by the government.
Blood Mages and Apostates are rogue operatives, who, 9 times out of 10, are traitorous bastards

With is a loyal agent going to do with a rogue agent? Probably kill it, or turn it in. An Apostate is a rogue agent, a Blood Mage is a rogue agent who uses murder as a way to get his job done. Not just killing the enemy, but murdering them with sacrifices of blood.

Wynne has a damn good reason to go after anyone who supports Apostates. They threaten the organization of the Mage Tower, even if its a Grey Warden, after all, a Mage Warden can request the circle be freed, which in itself is pretty huge/controversial.

Where to start.

First off, blood mages are not necessarily murderers.  If you power spells on your own blood or that of a willing ally without killing them, you can call that "shady" if you like but it's not murder.  Secondly, your rogue agent analogy assumes that the GW mage and Wynne are in the same organization and that's not the case.  She has no authority over you, as Irving will point out in his lovely STFU speech in the blood mage confrontation.

Regarding the ashes, who said people don't criticize Leliana for going bat**** crazy about the ashes too?  Not I, certainly.  Both of them are hypocrites.  Nor is defiling the ashes "evil."  It prevents more killing, for one thing.  Wynne thinks you're the salvation of mankind, as she'll tell you at length, but if you violate her religious sensibilities she attacks you or tells you she hopes the darkspawn win.  She's no better than the cultists at that point.  And as you say, if you choose poorly, you pay the price.

I can understand her attacking you if you threaten the Circle, but essentially by her own Chantry convictions, the Circle is lost and needs to be neutralized.  If the Warden hadn't come along, that's what the templars would have done and they weren't asking for Wynne's permission.  So you're not doing anything that isn't already justified according to Wynne's own worldview.

For all above reasons, Wynne's greatest flaw IMO is hypocrisy.  Hence why I wouldn't be surprised if she actually did turn out to be possessed by a clever Pride demon.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...
 Whether she's going to Tevinter with Shale or just leaving on her own (and at least in one instance completely without permission), she is, well, leaving the circle.  The very thing she feels all other mages should not be allowed to do.

I thought Awakening showed that Wynne remained in the circle anyways.
It is not implausible for Wynne to go to the Tevinter Imperium with the Circle's permission.

ejoslin wrote...
 I think Wynne realizes at the end that the warden is a person, and extraordinary person, but still just a person who is, surprisingly, competent.

And even in the end, she seems to scoff at the idea of the Warden being called "Hero of Ferelden". Lke she is acting as if such acclamations are beneath her. To be honest, that was actually annoying a bit.

[errant_knight]

Better change the title of the thread to 'Defend Wynne against all comers', Rykoth.

[ejoslin]

Well, if Awakening happens 6 months after Origins, she can still disappear after that. And in one of those slides, she most definitely did not have permission.



was it common that mages were allowed freedom of travel? I got the impression that they could be part of armies and guards, but they weren't given freedom to the extent where they could leave by themselves and go where they wished.

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...
Well, if Awakening happens 6 months after Origins, she can still disappear after that. And in one of those slides, she most definitely did not have permission.

was it common that mages were allowed freedom of travel? I got the impression that they could be part of armies and guards, but they weren't given freedom to the extent where they could leave by themselves and go where they wished.

Wynne wants to do research. Nothing says she's travelling alone and unsupervised.

Modifié par klarabella, 15 décembre 2010 - 04:43 .

[ejoslin]

Ahahahaha, I LOVE this VO note. This is PERFECT. this is from epi_wynne in the toolset, what is in parens is what the voice is supposed to sound like, a little note from the writer. They're talking about the title, "Hero of Ferelden."



Warden: It's a little strange.

Wynne: Of that I have no doubt. It's a title you'll be wearing for a long time to come, just as Loghain wore his. (and look what happened to Loghain -- she always has to get in her point, doesn't she?)



really, though, wynne is wonderfully flawed, and i think it's great they have an older woman as a fighter! But oh, the lady is NOT perfect at all, and she's portrayed wonderfully that way.

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Well, if Awakening happens 6 months after Origins, she can still disappear after that. And in one of those slides, she most definitely did not have permission.

was it common that mages were allowed freedom of travel? I got the impression that they could be part of armies and guards, but they weren't given freedom to the extent where they could leave by themselves and go where they wished.

Wynne wants to do research. Nothing says she's travelling alone and unsupervised.

At least one of the slides says exactly that.  Another one implies it quite strongly.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 décembre 2010 - 04:45 .

[Wulfram]

A respected Senior Enchanter could probably get permission to visit her colleagues in Tevinter.

[ejoslin]

Wulfram wrote...

A respected Senior Enchanter could probably get permission to visit her colleagues in Tevinter.

So why doesn't she in at least one (most likely two) of the instances?

And again, this is a freedom she does not think mages should have.  Except her.

And I will say again, that's FINE.  She knows how trustworthy she is, and she doesn't trust any other mage the way she trusts herself.  But...  when you yourself refuse to be a prisoner, it's not too reasonable to expect someone to go back to that life and get upset when they say they don't want that.

i'm not saying she's evil.  I'm not saying she's bad.  I'm saying she's very human, and holds up the warden to a higher standard of behavior than she feels she herself should be held up to.

[rak72]

I find Wynn more annoying then not, but there is a hate thread for her. Let the people that like her enjoy the magic that is Wynn. Nothing wrong with liking a flawed character.

[rak72]

I think Wynn can probably make really good pierogi

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
For all above reasons, Wynne's greatest flaw IMO is hypocrisy.  Hence why I wouldn't be surprised if she actually did turn out to be possessed by a clever Pride demon.

The thing that ticks me off the most, is what she told Aneirin.
I thought letting them meet would show Wynne the error of her ways and that there is something other than her precious circle that she wants to flee from and what does she do?

She asks a hunted fugitive who is now a Dalish mage to go back to the Circle.... Are you kidding me?
A boy who was hunted to be murdered like an animal when he was 14, is supposed to want to go back to his captors?
An elf who is finally rediscovering the ways of his ancestors and is happy, is supposed to return to the human dominated Circle? 
An elf who I presume worships the Creators, is supposed to go back to the Circle dominated by the Chantry?

Barring the fact that the Templars hunted him down to kill him in the past, the guy practises Dalish magic that we know the Chantry is suspicious of. In fact in Awakening, one of the Chantry board quests has us gather Sylvan wood for the Templars to understand elven magic and how to fight it better.

So, how does it make any sense to even dare suggest to Aneirin that he goes back to the Circle (that she wants to flee from)? Not only is it extreme hypocrisy, it's her being inconsiderate, offensive and outright stupid. 

Granted, part of my annoyance is Aneirin being too polite. I mean the Dalish weren't paragon of manners, why was he completely unmoved? Of course it could be that he is actually considering Wynne's offer, which would make him even more stupid than she is, but that's beside the point.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 décembre 2010 - 04:54 .

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...
At least one of the slides says exactly that.  Another one implies it quite strongly.

What does it say exactly?

[ejoslin]

I got the feeling that Anairan was at peace with himself and with his life, and he was one of those people who does listen to and respect what other people say. He struck me as very wise, actually. And someone who avoided causing someone unnecessary pain. There's nothing wrong with listening to someone and believing what they say has merit, even though he would not actually follow the (horrible) advice. He understood she was a product of the circle, indoctrinated more than most probably.



At least, I like to think so. It would perhaps be that peace and wisdom that could show Wynne that there may actually be a better way. That apostate does not mean evil or scary, and in fact can mean wise and gentle beyond any teaching the circle could have.

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
At least one of the slides says exactly that.  Another one implies it quite strongly.

What does it say exactly?

I put the two US slides on the previous page.

[Reaverwind]

Addai67 wrote...

Regarding the ashes, who said people don't criticize Leliana for going bat**** crazy about the ashes too?  Not I, certainly.  Both of them are hypocrites.  Nor is defiling the ashes "evil."  It prevents more killing, for one thing.  Wynne thinks you're the salvation of mankind, as she'll tell you at length, but if you violate her religious sensibilities she attacks you or tells you she hopes the darkspawn win. 

What religious sensibilities? Wynne doesn't have any, as her dialogue with Leliana should make clear. It's part of why I'd object to her reaction on defiling the Ashes - it's hypocritical. Lelianan's reaction I understand, since she does profess to be religious, although her timing leaves a LOT to be desired - blame bad programming for that.

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...
And again, this is a freedom she does not think mages should have.  Except her.

As Wulfram pointed out, Wynne is an Aquitaerian. Freedom is something that has to be earned, mages are too powerful to let them roam free, but she's doesn't think they should be imprisoned like animals either.

She has served the Circle for years, she's an old woman now, she even died protecting others. She will not last much longer. It's not too surprising that she might see herself deserving freedom.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...

I got the feeling that Anairan was at peace with himself and with his life, and he was one of those people who does listen to and respect what other people say. He struck me as very wise, actually. And someone who avoided causing someone unnecessary pain. There's nothing wrong with listening to someone and believing what they say has merit, even though he would not actually follow the (horrible) advice. He understood she was a product of the circle, indoctrinated more than most probably.

At least, I like to think so. It would perhaps be that peace and wisdom that could show Wynne that there may actually be a better way. That apostate does not mean evil or scary, and in fact can mean wise and gentle beyond any teaching the circle could have.

Yea, I am not saying he should beat her, or yell.
But he should have given her a resolute "no". Instead, he says he'll consider it (which I highly doubt).

Or it could be that Aneirin thought that telling her "no", would start an argument because Wynne has to get her way, so he tells her that to essentially make her STFU. In which case, smart.
That's what I do anyways, smile and nod and not argue with her.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 décembre 2010 - 04:59 .

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...

klarabella wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
At least one of the slides says exactly that.  Another one implies it quite strongly.

What does it say exactly?

I put the two US slides on the previous page.

Ah, found them. Thank you.

Wow, an apostate, that's against her beliefs. I wonder what her reasons were. 

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
And again, this is a freedom she does not think mages should have.  Except her.

As Wulfram pointed out, Wynne is an Aquitaerian. Freedom is something that has to be earned, mages are too powerful to let them roam free, but she's doesn't think they should be imprisoned like animals either.

She has served the Circle for years, she's an old woman now, she even died protecting others. She will not last much longer. It's not too surprising that she might see herself deserving freedom.

But it's a freedom she tries to talk other out of.  The magewarden and Anairan.  And as i said, I get why she feels she deserves the freedom.  The problem is she is holding others to a higher standard than she herself wants to live by.

Uldred I will point out was also a senior enchanter.  Who makes these decisions, who is trustworthy?  Wynne would not want to be held, personally, because of Uldred and what he did, but she will use him for a reason why mages other than herself are dangerous and should be controlled.

This is VERY understandable, btw.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 décembre 2010 - 05:02 .

[Reaverwind]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I got the feeling that Anairan was at peace with himself and with his life, and he was one of those people who does listen to and respect what other people say. He struck me as very wise, actually. And someone who avoided causing someone unnecessary pain. There's nothing wrong with listening to someone and believing what they say has merit, even though he would not actually follow the (horrible) advice. He understood she was a product of the circle, indoctrinated more than most probably.

At least, I like to think so. It would perhaps be that peace and wisdom that could show Wynne that there may actually be a better way. That apostate does not mean evil or scary, and in fact can mean wise and gentle beyond any teaching the circle could have.

Yea, I am not saying he should beat her, or yell.
But he should have given her a resolute "no". Instead, he says he'll consider it (which I highly doubt).

Or it could be that Aneirin thought that telling her "no", would start an argument because Wynne has to get her way, so he tells her that to essentially make her STFU. In which case, smart.
That's what I do anyways, smile and nod and not argue with her.

Except, as her dialogue is written, being downright rude IS the fastest way to get her to STFU.