154 réponses à ce sujet

[Captain Iglo]

I played at least 5 times through each Bioware games since BG2...and I have yet to find a bug that was worth still thinking about it 5 seconds later.

Modifié par Captain Iglo, 14 décembre 2010 - 01:02 .

[Estelindis]

"Is Dragon Age II doing to work when it is released?" Um, no - Bioware purposely made it wrong... as a joke. Not perhaps the best of questions, if the OP will forgive me for saying so. Yet I do see where the question comes from, to a certain extent. Awakening and Witch Hunt were released with an unusually large number of bugs and people are entitled to be concerned.

I appreciate what you have to say, o various Bioware folks who have posted. I understand that no one intends to have bugs. As a modder, I know that more and more bugs can appear even over the course of a bugfixing cycle. Any time a human is involved, there's always room for error! It's just hard for me to understand how some of the bugs that made it to release with Awakening and Witch Hunt weren't caught by QA. To me, at least, they seem really hard to miss. However, as I will explain, this is not really the ultimate issue for me.

Example one: in Awakening, I recruited Sigrun last. She didn't get to take part in the Joining because gathering all companions (or completing the main hub quests, however you like to look at it) locked the story into endgame mode, and talking to Varrel after that point began the first steps of the endgame - one couldn't use the conversation with him to initiate Sigrun into the Wardens. So even though one could continue questing without talking to him, one couldn't advance any of Sigrun's personal matters or advance her to friendship. This problem doesn't occur if one recruits Justice last, of course, since he doesn't need to take part in the Joining again. Now, I find it very hard to believe that everyone who tested Awakening recruited him last. It wouldn't make sense as a QA approach. So I just don't get how this bug wasn't caught. It also doesn't appear to have been fixed, alongside a long list of other Awakening bugs (though if someone cares to correct me on this matter I shall be very pleased).

Example two: Witch Hunt. I don't understand how QA could have never (or only rarely) imported saves from after the Epilogue, considering how one of the main purposes of the post-epilogue save was to be able to play DLC post-endgame and retroactively fit it into the story. However, the crucial difference with WH was the speed and comprehensiveness of the Bioware response. They asked the community for help identifying the bug and testing possible fixes. They used the help with gave to provide a timely fix that worked.

Ultimately, if Bioware ends up releasing DA2 with boatloads of bugs, I won't mind a great deal as long as they acknowledge the bugs once reported and work with the community to fix them. I've preordered DA2 regardless, being just that much of a Bioware game addict and willing to trust the company to try their best (but not beyond reason; I won't be picking up any DLC unless it's substantially better than DA:O's DLC - more along the lines of ME2's DLC in terms of quality).  I won't be asking Bioware to assure us that they'll do their best in terms of QA.  One may assume that they were already doing so (even if their best was imperfect, like so many other human things), and they they will continue to do so.  I do ask for a degree of responsiveness to bugs and cooperation with the community that compares to that after Witch Hunt.  I hope I am not being unfair in doing so.

Modifié par Estelindis, 14 décembre 2010 - 02:29 .

[TRSniper4]

*Sigh,* so it looks like I'm the only one who dislikes the "remove 'em or lose 'em" policy with regard to weapons and armor in the Silverite Mines?



Me: Oghren, we need to take off our pants!

Oghren: What? You comin' on to me, Warden?

Me: Well, there's a big bug up ahead, and we need to take off our pants, or we will lose them!

Oghren: This bug your girlfriend or something?

Me: No, but it will force us to wear crappy leather for the rest of our adventure.

Oghren: Sounds kinky.

[AlexXIV]

Estelindis wrote...

"Is Dragon Age II doing to work when it is released?" Um, no - Bioware purposely made it wrong... as a joke. Not perhaps the best of questions, if the OP will forgive me for saying so. Yet I do see where the question comes from, to a certain extent. Awakening and Witch Hunt were released with an unusually large number of bugs and people are entitled to be concerned.

I appreciate what you have to say, o various Bioware folks who have posted. I understand that no one intends to have bugs. As a modder, I know that more and more bugs can appear even over the course of a bugfixing cycle. Any time a human is involved, there's always room for error! It's just hard for me to understand how some of the bugs that made it to release with Awakening and Witch Hunt weren't caught by QA. To me, at least, they seem really hard to miss. However, as I will explain, this is not really the ultimate issue for me.

Example one: in Awakening, I recruited Sigrun last. She didn't get to take part in the Joining because gathering all companions (or completing the main hub quests, however you like to look at it) locked the story into endgame mode, and talking to Varrel after that point began the first steps of the endgame - one couldn't use the conversation with him to initiate Sigrun into the Wardens. So even though one could continue questing without talking to him, one couldn't advance any of Sigrun's personal matters or advance her to friendship. This problem doesn't occur if one recruits Justice last, of course, since he doesn't need to take part in the Joining again. Now, I find it very hard to believe that everyone who tested Awakening recruited him last. It wouldn't make sense as a QA approach. So I just don't get how this bug wasn't caught. It also doesn't appear to have been fixed, alongside a long list of other Awakening bugs (though if someone cares to correct me on this matter I shall be very pleased).

Example two: Witch Hunt. I don't understand how QA could have never (or only rarely) imported saves from after the Epilogue, considering how one of the main purposes of the post-epilogue save was to be able to play DLC post-endgame and retroactively fit it into the story. However, the crucial difference with WH was the speed and comprehensiveness of the Bioware response. They asked the community for help identifying the bug and testing possible fixes. They used the help with gave to provide a timely fix that worked.

Ultimately, if Bioware ends up releasing DA2 with boatloads of bugs, I won't mind a great deal as long as they acknowledge the bugs once reported and work with the community to fix them. I've preordered DA2 regardless, being just that much of a Bioware game addict and willing to trust the company to try their best (but not beyond reason; I won't be picking up any DLC unless it's substantially better than DA:O's DLC - more along the lines of ME2's DLC in terms of quality).  I won't be asking Bioware to assure us that they'll do their best in terms of QA.  One may assume that they were already doing so (even if their best was imperfect, like so many other human things), and they they will continue to do so.  I do ask for a degree of responsiveness to bugs and cooperation with the community that compares to that after Witch Hunt.  I hope I am not being unfair in doing so.

You know, Awakening was disappointing compared to DA:O, especially if you bring the prices of both games into it. But I think the team working on DLCs and Expansions isn't even the same working on the main game. So bringing either Awakenings or Witchhunt here is neither something to adress DA2 with nor it's dev's. Such complains best go to the DA:O board. That was one point why i found the OP misplaced.

Thing is, you probably even can't blame the devs. Because they have bosses too and get pressure from 'upstairs'. And I am not sure if many complaints actually get to the place where they should be. And what's even worse, the few devs who post here voluntarily get to deal with the hate. And how is that fair?

I mean, if I think about it I can acually understand devs who have no desire to communicate with the fanbase.

[AlexXIV]

TRSniper4 wrote...

*Sigh,* so it looks like I'm the only one who dislikes the "remove 'em or lose 'em" policy with regard to weapons and armor in the Silverite Mines?

Me: Oghren, we need to take off our pants!
Oghren: What? You comin' on to me, Warden?
Me: Well, there's a big bug up ahead, and we need to take off our pants, or we will lose them!
Oghren: This bug your girlfriend or something?
Me: No, but it will force us to wear crappy leather for the rest of our adventure.
Oghren: Sounds kinky.

I never even experienced that in my .... about a dozen playthroughs

[TRSniper4]

AlexXIV wrote...

I never even experienced that in my .... about a dozen playthroughs

Yeah, I never experienced it until after I got the latest patch(es).  I played through it twice with no problems.  Next thing you know, I'm playing with my Elf,  I've reached the end of the level, and... no fourth experimental subject.  I could have sworn my stuff showed up in a chest instead in previous playthoughs, but it wasn't now, nor was I seeing this fourth subject.  Bioware obviously addressed related bugs here, but what seems to have fixed the bug for some has created one for others.  As I said, I can't even remember what is supposed to happen, since it's been so long since my 2nd successful playthrough, but whatever it is, it's not happening in this more-patched third playthrough. 

Well... it looks like I'm taking it all off for the Architect.  I hope he doesn't get the wrong idea. <_<

edit: Note that somehow, my other possessions were never taken from my inventory?  I think your items are supposed to go in some chest, and your armor/weapons are put on the fourth experimental subject.  I got to keep my items, but the fourth subject never spawned.  It looks like it's a relatively common issue, too.  Oh well, we can only hope Bioware fixes this, but the Witch Hunt patch looks like it may be our final DA patch. 

To be more on topic, this is basically what I'm talking about: calling it quits, when there are still super annoying bugs like this.  I know not all systems are the same, but a quick internet search for "Silverite Mine bug" will yield plenty of results.    

Modifié par TRSniper4, 14 décembre 2010 - 03:13 .

[Estelindis]

AlexXIV wrote...
I think the team working on DLCs and Expansions isn't even the same working on the main game.

While I wouldn't claim that all teams were person-for-person identical (I'd imagine that the expansion and DLC teams just couldn't have been as big as the original team), we certainly know of many people who were involved in all of them (e.g.  David wrote Morrigan in Witch Hunt).  But the only devs who can really assure us of much in QA terms would be... well... on the QA team.  Stan has posted a bit to this thread, so that has helped - but, as I said, I wasn't really looking for what he said it would be pointless to give us (that is, reassurance that Bioware will do their best to prevent bugs occurring).  I'm more interested in the response to bugs that make it past QA once fans tell Bioware about them.

AlexXIV wrote...
Thing is, you probably even can't blame the devs. Because they have bosses too and get pressure from 'upstairs'. And I am not sure if many complaints actually get to the place where they should be. And what's even worse, the few devs who post here voluntarily get to deal with the hate. And how is that fair?

I get what you're saying, but fans are entitled to voice concerns as well.  As long as we do it politely and try not to have unrealistic expectations, I really don't think the devs find us offputting.  (i say "try" not to have unrealistic expectations because we are bound to have some without evenh realising it, due to our lack of personal experience in the games industry.)

[AlexXIV]

Estelindis wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I think the team working on DLCs and Expansions isn't even the same working on the main game.

While I wouldn't claim that all teams were person-for-person identical (I'd imagine that the expansion and DLC teams just couldn't have been as big as the original team), we certainly know of many people who were involved in all of them (e.g.  David wrote Morrigan in Witch Hunt).  But the only devs who can really assure us of much in QA terms would be... well... on the QA team.  Stan has posted a bit to this thread, so that has helped - but, as I said, I wasn't really looking for what he said it would be pointless to give us (that is, reassurance that Bioware will do their best to prevent bugs occurring).  I'm more interested in the response to bugs that make it past QA once fans tell Bioware about them.

AlexXIV wrote...
Thing is, you probably even can't blame the devs. Because they have bosses too and get pressure from 'upstairs'. And I am not sure if many complaints actually get to the place where they should be. And what's even worse, the few devs who post here voluntarily get to deal with the hate. And how is that fair?

I get what you're saying, but fans are entitled to voice concerns as well.  As long as we do it politely and try not to have unrealistic expectations, I really don't think the devs find us offputting.  (i say "try" not to have unrealistic expectations because we are bound to have some without evenh realising it, due to our lack of personal experience in the games industry.)

Couldn't agree more.

[Estelindis]

Agreement in a Bioware thread?  Inconceivable!  

Well, thank you for the discussion. 

[Wicked 702]

AlexXIV wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Vanilla DA:O (I dont know what patch fixed it) had at least one genuinely gamebreaking bug. In A Paragon of Her Kind if you played both sides you could get stuck and unable to progress. That's all I know of though.

You know that's why I sometimes think people exaggerate too much. 'Game breaking' would be something that influences the game big style. I have found this bug too. I went back to an earlier save game and chose one side and that solved the problem. Was it a bit annoying/irritating? Yes. But certainly not game breaking.

You are so far off base, you're probably in enemy hands by now. Good job applying your own completely inaccurate subjective definition of "game breaking." Your interpretation is false.

Objectively, the term describes a point in the program where future progress is somehow permanently prevented by aspects within said program. There are many variations of this error. One of the more egregious is a "stop error," which will tend to generate a CTD (crash to desktop). But the main point is that progress through the program is prevented by something within the coding.

As such, the three situations I described previously fit perfectly. The fact that you can load a previous save is immaterial, since we're not talking about what the player should or should not do but rather how the program performs as a unique entity. While I agree that it is prudent for individuals to keep multiple saves, backup copies of files, etc. etc., these protective measures are completely divorced from the actual functionality of the program itself. Reaching a point in the program where you are prevented from proceeding further is most definitely "game breaking," in every sense of the term.

[AlexXIV]

Wicked 702 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Vanilla DA:O (I dont know what patch fixed it) had at least one genuinely gamebreaking bug. In A Paragon of Her Kind if you played both sides you could get stuck and unable to progress. That's all I know of though.

You know that's why I sometimes think people exaggerate too much. 'Game breaking' would be something that influences the game big style. I have found this bug too. I went back to an earlier save game and chose one side and that solved the problem. Was it a bit annoying/irritating? Yes. But certainly not game breaking.

You are so far off base, you're probably in enemy hands by now. Good job applying your own completely inaccurate subjective definition of "game breaking." Your interpretation is false.

Objectively, the term describes a point in the program where future progress is somehow permanently prevented by aspects within said program. There are many variations of this error. One of the more egregious is a "stop error," which will tend to generate a CTD (crash to desktop). But the main point is that progress through the program is prevented by something within the coding.

As such, the three situations I described previously fit perfectly. The fact that you can load a previous save is immaterial, since we're not talking about what the player should or should not do but rather how the program performs as a unique entity. While I agree that it is prudent for individuals to keep multiple saves, backup copies of files, etc. etc., these protective measures are completely divorced from the actual functionality of the program itself. Reaching a point in the program where you are prevented from proceeding further is most definitely "game breaking," in every sense of the term.

Do you realize how many game breaking bugs are in Fallout by your definition? Because there you can do anything you want to screw up your game. Also, I would like to see the source of this definition of game breaking.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 15 décembre 2010 - 07:46 .

[Wicked 702]

AlexXIV wrote...

Do you realize how many game breaking bugs are in Fallout by your definition? Because there you can do anything you want to screw up your game. Also, I would like to see the source of this definition of game breaking.

http://tvtropes.org/...GameBreakingBug

I suggest checking out the section on "Unwinnable by Mistake."

[The Lyons]

Why is it that Fallout seems to be maligned by a vocal minority on his forum? We get it Obsidian releases buggy games. Does not stop them from being some of the few forward thinking (while looking back) RPGs on the market. God bless that company or else the traditional NA RPG might be long dead by now.

[Blastback]

Stanley Woo wrote...

bluewolv1970 wrote...
what I am disappointed in and concerned with is that there seems to be a direct correlation between development time and quality upon release in the dragon age series...that is a fact based on the releases in the series so far...I simply would like to hear someone from Bioware acknowledge that the last few releases even were seriously flawed...I mean how can quality improve if no one even admits it has been lacking...

Do we have to admit it to you specifically, or acknowledge it in public, in order for quality to improve on a subsequent product? Because that seems like a very inefficient way of improving. i mean, you're not on the development team, not an employee of the company, heck, you may not even be working in the same industry and likely not a shareholder! And ultimately, what can you do about it? You can choose to buy the next product or not, the same way you can even if we never tell you anything about it. What changes?

The public acknoledgement of bugs has little to do with actually fixing the bugs, but quite a bit to do with helping provide reassurance that players won't see the same problems in the next game.  Saying that, yes we know that a number of players are upset with the Vigilance bug, and it is not an acceptable situation, and we're sorry that reasons x,y, and z prevent us from fixing it.  But we have looked at the issue, and taken it into account for future releases.    That way, people might be a little more confident in purchasing the product. 

And to the OP, when they released their last patch for Origins, Bioware did actually do just this with regards to several lingering bugs.  Whether or not their continued existance is acceptable is of course, completely up to debate, but they have acknoleged that Origins and it's additional content had problems, and they have taken the causes of those issues into account for the future.

[Altima Darkspells]

Captain Iglo wrote...

I played at least 5 times through each Bioware games since BG2...and I have yet to find a bug that was worth still thinking about it 5 seconds later.

That's rather impressive.

In DAO alone, I thought about the dex-bug on the release of the game every time I went int combat with my city elf dagger wielding rogue.  After a certain point, I said screw it and switch the game to easy because it was like playing the game with only three characters instead of four.

In DAA there was Velana's sub-quest not shooting off, Sigrun's companion quest bugging all to hell if you happen to do an extremely early quest before starting it, and the Blackbiter item set not even showing up (and from what I understand, still doesn't).  Those bugs--while not gamebreaking--were extremely annoying because, well, they were story quests.  Those bugs only caused me to play DAA through once.  The five months between the game being released and a patch that fixes half the issues didn't help either.

[AlexXIV]

Wicked 702 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Do you realize how many game breaking bugs are in Fallout by your definition? Because there you can do anything you want to screw up your game. Also, I would like to see the source of this definition of game breaking.

http://tvtropes.org/...GameBreakingBug

I suggest checking out the section on "Unwinnable by Mistake."

Well looks like it is, even though I don't know how 'official' this definition on this site is. But nontheless, choosing to not double-play in this quest doesn't have much effect on the rest of the game. A bit of xp maybe but no items or anything vital is lost if you don't do it.

Also if Bioware just wouldn't have implemented the option to double-play the both then nobody would have noticed something is missing, since it was next to not important. You have to pick one side eventually anyway. Well as I said it is annoying but really just a minor thing.

Whether it is the official definition or not, I would consider gamebreaking if a bug is that bad that you throw it in the corner and don't want to see it again. I doubt that would be the case with this bug. Really if this bug is in the same category with for example bugs that change the whole gameplay then the definitiion is not exactly precise and a bit useless.

Not sure if I could make my point clear. If I hear 'game-breaking' I expect something that breaks the game, not something that makes me go back to start an earlier save game. I do that anyway many times if I for example make a choice and I find out later it sucked. Just take Alistairs hardening. if you didn't harden him but want your fem Warden marry him you have to go back load an earlier game and do it again. And it is not even a bug.

So understand me when I am saying, I don't find the definition 'game breaking' for exactly this bug with Bhalen and Harrowmont very acurate. Just something to make it look worse than it really is. Doesn't break my game.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 15 décembre 2010 - 11:38 .

[AlexXIV]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Do we have to admit it to you specifically, or acknowledge it in public, in order for quality to improve on a subsequent product? Because that seems like a very inefficient way of improving. i mean, you're not on the development team, not an employee of the company, heck, you may not even be working in the same industry and likely not a shareholder! And ultimately, what can you do about it? You can choose to buy the next product or not, the same way you can even if we never tell you anything about it. What changes?

Wow.  I missed this comment.

All I can say is admitting to a bug and promising it will be addressed is not a waste of time.  It does reassure the purchasers of your product.  True, there will always be some smart alec out there who will question your sincereity.  The majority, however, will believe or at the very least respect your company getting ahead of things.

I think earlier on this thread (just a few posts up) I said it: your competitors (Blizzard) do it.  And it works.

And as I said in another post - nobody is going to comment if everything goes right.  It's just human nature to say nothing when people are happy with a service, but complain when they are not.  But use that positive attitude and trust that a simple acknowledgement when a bugged patch is found and a promise that the developers are working on it goes a long way.

The game is in development. Do you expect them to comment on bugs now?

If at the time when the game is released it does have bugs they should be addressed.But this isn't even subject in this thread. Neither should be all the complains about DA:O. We are in the DA2 Forum.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 15 décembre 2010 - 11:49 .

[Blastback]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Do we have to admit it to you specifically, or acknowledge it in public, in order for quality to improve on a subsequent product? Because that seems like a very inefficient way of improving. i mean, you're not on the development team, not an employee of the company, heck, you may not even be working in the same industry and likely not a shareholder! And ultimately, what can you do about it? You can choose to buy the next product or not, the same way you can even if we never tell you anything about it. What changes?

Wow.  I missed this comment.

All I can say is admitting to a bug and promising it will be addressed is not a waste of time.  It does reassure the purchasers of your product.  True, there will always be some smart alec out there who will question your sincereity.  The majority, however, will believe or at the very least respect your company getting ahead of things.

I think earlier on this thread (just a few posts up) I said it: your competitors (Blizzard) do it.  And it works.

And as I said in another post - nobody is going to comment if everything goes right.  It's just human nature to say nothing when people are happy with a service, but complain when they are not.  But use that positive attitude and trust that a simple acknowledgement when a bugged patch is found and a promise that the developers are working on it goes a long way.

Exactly.  Yes, you are going to get flak no matter what you do, but ultimatly, this could help you keep a few preorders who might otherwise not buy the game at full price, or even buy the game at all.  Have one post acknowledging the problems in Origins and it's addons, telling players that the issues have been taken into account. How much could it really hurt?

[AlexXIV]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Alex,

No. I HOPE they will not approach bugs with DA2 the way they did with DAO/DAA. THAT is DA2 related.

"Those who learn nothing from the past are doomed to repeat it."

edit: as to what I EXPECT . . . I learned a long time ago to EXPECT nothing - because one who expects is doomed to disappointment.

Well I am sure they will do better. After all DA:A seems to be bit of a flop. They made DLCs independent of Awakenings and they don't do anymore DLCs even though it was annouced for 2 years. So I guess they noticed something went wrong and I'd assume they don't want it to happen again with DA2.

[IRMcGhee]

Whatever issues there are with Bioware patching the current DA releases (think I read somewhere that there's contractual issues, nevermind anything else) , pretty much all of them not fixed officially have third-party fixes available.

[Blastback]

IRMcGhee wrote...

Whatever issues there are with Bioware patching the current DA releases (think I read somewhere that there's contractual issues, nevermind anything else) , pretty much all of them not fixed officially have third-party fixes available.

If your on PC, sure, you can download fixes right and left.  But that still leaves console gamers with a number of problems.