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[Gbowe]

... If every single renegade decision will inevitabley bite you in the ass? This applies to Mass Effect 2 as well as 1 (however there isn't an ME1/ME2 spoiler discussion thread.) This doesn't just apply to pretty obvious, "this choice is actually better" (aka, letting Wrex live) but to the supposedly more "gray" choices (saving the Council is ultimately the better option then forming a Human Empire, letting the Rachni queen live is upiquitously a good thing to do, as you find out in ME2, etc.)

Is there any advantage at all to making a single Renegade decision over paragon in the game?

[Omega-202]

In ME2, the Renegade choice of keeping the Collector Base may end up being the correct one. We don't yet know how any of these choices end up playing out.

For all we know, keeping the old Council could hinder us in ME3 because they could remain completely stubborn about supporting Shepard. Or saving the Rachni could be a bad choice. Despite the Queen saying she wants to help, we know that her ancestors were manipulated by the Reapers once before, so whats keeping it from happening again?

[AdmiralCheez]

Easy: renegade is more fun.

[Siegdrifa]

Gbowe wrote...

... If every single renegade decision will inevitabley bite you in the ass? This applies to Mass Effect 2 as well as 1 (however there isn't an ME1/ME2 spoiler discussion thread.) This doesn't just apply to pretty obvious, "this choice is actually better" (aka, letting Wrex live) but to the supposedly more "gray" choices (saving the Council is ultimately the better option then forming a Human Empire, letting the Rachni queen live is upiquitously a good thing to do, as you find out in ME2, etc.)

Is there any advantage at all to making a single Renegade decision over paragon in the game?

It's not really biting you is the ass.
I don't think your ME3 experience will be really different, not matter the choice you made. All important narrative element will be here.

For exemple Wrex, it's not important if he dies or not, someone else is taking his place and let you to do the same mission the same way you could with Wrex. In ME3, it could impact the difficulty to unit the krogan against the reapers (pure story speculation) but in the end, you could get same result.

When you start a ME2 playthrough, it doesn't matter if the counsil is alive of dead, both version say it was the best solution (discution between Mirranda and TIM).
You can't play a game with the old counsil stoping Shepard decision and another version with new counsil doing everything Shepard wants (not that i wouldn't mind). If there is oposition to Shepard, it's part of the story telling to make the tension grow, the dev won't let you escape that no matter who is alive or dead.

And i get the feeling it will be the same dealing with Rachni, Geths and other.
I hope i will be wrong, but it's the most easyest (better?) way to keep the story together no matter the players choices (and they are not just a few).

And since they will keep on doing ME games after ME3, may be no matter what you do in ME3 could be undone in ME4 to keep the core story holding together.

Just remembered DA with the anvil of void.... you can choose to destroy it or keep it. Even if you destroy it in order to prevent more attrocity on drawf, the "golem project" was reopened, then sealed again.
We could get the same with the collector base.

[Manic Sheep]

Well for a start we don't know how exactly all these decision are actually going to turn out until ME3 comes out, wrex is not a pragon/renegade choice and to quote the last post I made very recently over in the concentrate on sovereign thread...

I tend to try and ignore the point, whether a line is blue or red and just pick witch ever fits with a character (or me) more. All 4 of my characters are paragade for different reasons and I find this much more satisfactory. The paragon is too perfect and the renegade is too much of an ****

Tho the game dose seem to have some favouritism towards paragon I’ll admit. they allways seem to get the best of both worlds and have a bit more content than renegades (tho the cameos are not great so renegades are not missing much with that). However I don’t think it’s as bad as allot of people seem to say it is. I can’t think of anything major that has truly backfired for either the paragons or renegades. The renegade options have more negative consequences than the paragon but none of these where unexpected. If you shoot someone obviously you are not going to see them again. I was initially annoyed that none of the paragon risks ever backfire and that even things like Zaeeds loyalty and all and all the paragon world seem allot brighter and to be doing allot better than the renegade but after a while I figured maybe that’s just how it’s meant to be and hell I don’t want things to be that nice anyway. I would have been annoyed if everyone was fine and dandy with me sacrificing the council and the alliance had played nice. Since most things are morally grey perhaps they don’t want to have things backfire because it would be like saying that decision was wrong?

As I’ve said elsewhere many times (I probably sound like a broken record by now) the paragon renegade thing seems to me to be more to customise the story rather than having right or wrong answers. I like darker stories and anti heroes so I pick renegade on big decisions more often than not where as if I wanted something more light hearted and ‘feel good’ I pick paragon (tho I would still like some to backfire TBH). One of my characters is mostly paragon in personality but I didn’t want everything turning out great so I have her fail certain things by not picking the instant win coloured lines on purpose. I don’t know if this is how the game is meant to be played and perhaps I’m just trying to make light of a system plagued with favouritism but so far this approach is working pretty well for me and viewing it like makes the paragon vs renegade thing less annoying. The only major problems with the current system is that for the most part we are restricted to only 2 options when it comes to major decision with no mid ground and because you speech is base on pra and ren points it forces you to farm point rather than make decision naturally. Luckily that hasn’t screwed me over much tho.

The only time I have ever felt shafted for making a renegade decision is with the collector base. Where every single SM disapproves regardless of what they said during the actual mission itself (Mordin, Garrus, Grunt and Legion all support keeping the base during the mission) and you get massive evil foreshadowing from TIM but the paragons got congratulated by everyone in the crew and a nice satisfying explosion and a badass resignation from Cerberus.


TL;DR: The Para/Ren system is easier to swallow if you view it as just a way to customise the story and don’t stick to strictly one or the other.

Edit: Sorry I'm going off topic and ranting as usual.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 14 décembre 2010 - 06:26 .

[Schneidend]

Gbowe wrote...

... If every single renegade decision will inevitabley bite you in the ass? This applies to Mass Effect 2 as well as 1 (however there isn't an ME1/ME2 spoiler discussion thread.) This doesn't just apply to pretty obvious, "this choice is actually better" (aka, letting Wrex live) but to the supposedly more "gray" choices (saving the Council is ultimately the better option then forming a Human Empire, letting the Rachni queen live is upiquitously a good thing to do, as you find out in ME2, etc.)

Is there any advantage at all to making a single Renegade decision over paragon in the game?

Renegades can easily spare Wrex by intimidating him or completing his armor quest.
Citing the dialogue in ME2 as a reason to spare the rachni queen is metagaming. Shepard doesn't have access to this information. It can easily be argued that it's safer to kill the queen and avoid the potential risk.

Whether or not saving the Council is the best idea is debatable. This hasn't had any serious benefits or consequences for either decision yet, even taking metagame into account.

[snfonseka]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Easy: renegade is more fun.

This is true......

[CaptainZaysh]

Speaking as a Renegade: it would be an appalling design decision to punish Paragons for making the "wrong" judgement calls. Look at it differently: in Renegade Shepard's world he's rewarded for eliminating the rachni by not having them take over the galaxy. He's rewarded for killing Wrex by not being shot by Wrex on Virmire. Stop metagaming and it will all make sense.



And like Cheez says, as a player you are rewarded by having much more fun than those wussy Paragons.

[Aggie Punbot]

You know, I can't help but notice that there are a lot of Paragon players that seem to want to have Renegade players punished simply for making different decisions that they do. 'Pure' Renegade players already are 'punished' enough by receiving less content in ME2 (due to having killed the people that would have made cameos and offered minor perks). Why do some people think that Renegades should be treated like absolute crap simply because they were unwilling to take the word of people/aliens they didn't know when they claimed that they'd 'change their ways'?

[snfonseka]

TS2Aggie wrote...

You know, I can't help but notice that there are a lot of Paragon players that seem to want to have Renegade players punished simply for making different decisions that they do. 'Pure' Renegade players already are 'punished' enough by receiving less content in ME2 (due to having killed the people that would have made cameos and offered minor perks). Why do some people think that Renegades should be treated like absolute crap simply because they were unwilling to take the word of people/aliens they didn't know when they claimed that they'd 'change their ways'?

According to my memory they all are related to "receving emails". So I am not going to worry about some missing emails.

[GodWood]

Gbowe wrote...
This doesn't just apply to pretty obvious, "this choice is actually better" (aka, letting Wrex live) but to the supposedly more "gray" choices (saving the Council is ultimately the better option then forming a Human Empire, letting the Rachni queen live is upiquitously a good thing to do, as you find out in ME2, etc.)

Depends how you look at it, if you sacrifice the council the turians and humans are sort of having an arms race, this should help greatly against the Reapers.
Plus theres the whole human dominance if you're into that sort of thing.

[oldag07]

"Evil will always triumph over good because good is dumb."



Dark Helmet, Space Balls

[MisterDyslexo]

oldag07 wrote...

"Evil will always triumph over good because good is dumb."

Dark Helmet, Space Balls

When he takes the ring, right?

Anyways, I like to put this in historical context. Bad guys always, always, get their comeuppances. I like how BW recognized this in KOTOR, with Jolee Bindo, saysing basically
"Tyrants rise to power and fall, as they as do. Its may take days, or centuries, but it always happens. Of course someimes, sooner is preferable."

Being a bully doesn't earn you any points in life if you plan on living long. Only suits the "live-fast, die young" lifestyle, which well, "die fast".

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Anyways, I like to put this in historical context. Bad guys always, always, get their comeuppances.

I'm curious, how do you differentiate between "good" and "bad" guys in history?

[Manic Sheep]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

"Tyrants rise to power and fall, as they as do. Its may take days, or centuries, but it always happens. Of course someimes, sooner is preferable."

As doses everything. Nothing lasts forever 'good or bad.'

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 15 décembre 2010 - 08:10 .

[darth_lopez]

Renegade is simply more efficient imho. There is no good or bad. Just efficiency or inefficiency. And some of our renegade decisions did turn out to be good.

1) BDTS that dude was totally a terrorist better he and the hostages die than he successfully drop another asteroid shepard wasn't casually flying by.

2)Killing allowing mordin to kill his assistant on Tuchanka That dude was obviously a security hazard.

3)the death of conrad It was both totally hilarious and beneficial to society.

4) Mouthing off to the council This simply releived stress as some morons on it are more than just morons they are retarded morons the worst type of moron

5)telling the illusive man to shove it up his pipe.

6)killing the council~If the game factored in Fleet Strength and Time it would have been the better tactical decision to let them die and conserve resources.

7) Killing the rachni quenn~ it's been hinted heavily that they were originally under reaper influence during the Rachni wars what is preventing them from hitting that sour yellow note again? The whole species fell easily to indoctrination they could be our impending doom.

8) Re-Writing the geth Heretics to comply with the True Geth Avoids potential war with geth Gains new allies in the long run. Prevents geth from being long term danger to Organic life.

9)Shooting Racist Turian Candidate in thanes Loyalty mission, absolves thane's son of legal liability second kills a racist

10) research of reaper tech from collector base Ultimate STFU to reapers, We killed you with your own guns.



My initial ME 1 play thorugh now my 1st ME 2 playthrough and soon my First ME 3 playthrough is a nice consitent mix of renagon. Though most of the renegade decisions in ME 1 don't come back and have no real benefit neither do most of the Paragon decisions, however ME 2 has alot of nice spots where you can see benefits to the next game or potential hinderances or things that just have fun and cool results. The Interrupt system added another level of efficiency to Renegade allowing you to decisively end problematic situations in an effective and typically cunning matter.



There are Pros to each and every one of those situations i've listed, and i've listed a few of those Pros. Renegade is just Efficiency at the max if you want to stroll on over to mamby pamby land by all means do so but you'll be doing it inefficiently

[darth_lopez]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

oldag07 wrote...

"Evil will always triumph over good because good is dumb."

Dark Helmet, Space Balls

When he takes the ring, right?

Anyways, I like to put this in historical context. Bad guys always, always, get their comeuppances. I like how BW recognized this in KOTOR, with Jolee Bindo, saysing basically
"Tyrants rise to power and fall, as they as do. Its may take days, or centuries, but it always happens. Of course someimes, sooner is preferable."

Being a bully doesn't earn you any points in life if you plan on living long. Only suits the "live-fast, die young" lifestyle, which well, "die fast".

jolee bindo i felt was more about....acknowledging that our Moment is important but it is not the most important moment in history It's just what it is a moment that defines us and shapes our time if that moment happens to affect another time then it does so. But the Tyrant refrence can be easily made to apply to Anything including Race Car Drivers >>

And Some times in history the renegade option is the better, Hiroshima and Nagosaki are good examples of this. i know opinions might be varried on our use but the facts stand that dropping the atomic bombs Killed less people than continued firebombing in japan and an amphibious invasion of the island would have however their potential to destroy whole cities was terrifying and impressive and so our use of the bombs prompted a swift end to an already long and costly war. However the costs of those bombs would continue into later years under the effects of fallout and radiation poisoning. BUT the US use of the bombs secured our Scientific, political and Miltiary Dominance on the Globe for 50 years before dwindling in the late 80's early 90's

So yes it was a renegade decision but it had Beneficial Effects for Western Power With the immediate negative reprucussions being felt by only 1 country. This made it an efficient decision not necessarily the right decision.

history and teh tyrant speach isn't exactly a good method of judging good and bad is what i'm trying to get at here.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 15 décembre 2010 - 08:36 .

[Aggie Punbot]

snfonseka wrote...

According to my memory they all are related to "receving emails". So I am not going to worry about some missing emails.

Your memory is faulty.

- Conrad Verner appears in ME2 and will offer you a quest that will result in you receiving a discount at a vendor that you wouldn't normally be able to get.
- Shiala shows up on Illium.
- Fist shows up in Omega for a hilarious (and brief) cameo.
- Gianna Parasini shows up on Illium with a minor quest.
- An asari representing the Rachni shows up on Illium.
- Helena Blake shows up on Omega.
- Rana Thanoptis shows up on Grunt's recruitment mission.

[hawat333]

Being the antihero.

And it is more fun.



But yeah, you are right, there should be some Renegade options that turn out well.

(looking at the dwarven king situation in DA:O, that's a perfect example. Choosing a more-or-less 'renegade path' turns out to be a better decision overall, considering the epilogues)

[deep333]

From looking at the trailer for me3, and someone saying "Shepard needs to bring help", i'm guessing a lot of the renegade decisions could mess u up....I mean in order to get the maximum no of allies,

you gotta,

save the rachni queen,

Ask the quarians not to go to war,

regprogram the geth (so they can perhaps ally with u to save earth)

save the council ( so the turians will come to help you)



you name it....all these decisions are paragon!

[deep333]

don't get me wrong,,, renegade stuff like shooting conrad,, pushing dudes off high buildings, punching that journalist etc...are all a lotta fun....but in terms of major decisions that help you in me3,, the paragon decisions could help

[Siegdrifa]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Anyways, I like to put this in historical context. Bad guys always, always, get their comeuppances.

I'm curious, how do you differentiate between "good" and "bad" guys in history?

In history, story is written by the winner, that's what define the "good" guy i suppose.
I agree it's not objective at all, but this is the kind of bull **** that some people belive.

Kill 1 people you are a murderer, kill tens of thousand you are a conqueror.
kill all men, you are a god.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 15 décembre 2010 - 07:08 .

[darth_lopez]

deep333 wrote...

From looking at the trailer for me3, and someone saying "Shepard needs to bring help", i'm guessing a lot of the renegade decisions could mess u up....I mean in order to get the maximum no of allies,
you gotta,
save the rachni queen,
Ask the quarians not to go to war,
regprogram the geth (so they can perhaps ally with u to save earth)
save the council ( so the turians will come to help you)

you name it....all these decisions are paragon!

You don't have to reprogram the Geth, just the heretics, the True Geth would ally against he reapers anyway. They are nearly assured to help and Re-Writing the heretics is a Renegade decision (pretty sure)

The turians would be reluctant to assist humanity anyway. We don't exactly see eye to eye on anything.

Quarian war is assured under crazy admiral chicks e-mail. Only way to avoid it may be by bringing Legion with you to the flotilla.

Rachni Queen could easily turn on you, the Species has been indoctrinated before (or so it is implied that they were under the effects durign the rachni wars in ME 1 Therefore it's reasonable to suspect it could happen again. Really she could be more of a hinderance. Don't forget Wrex was not pleased that we set her free and i'm sure that most krogan if she went rogue would be reluctant to assist in killing them again.

so all those things are in effect debatable and up in the air. Exception the allegiance of the True Geth. Even then Working with the geth might take away from quarian support.

Furthermore Krogan as we saw on tuchanka are more likely to respond to renegade decisions as are salarians.

and there is a high probability that the Reapers are also attackign the Turians at the same time they are attacking the humans. Given the Turians and Humans are the largest military powers in the galaxy and the reapers biggest combined threat. a turian human krogan army could destroy nearly any opposition.