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[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Another instance in which the simplest explanation is that there are different versions of ME1 and ME2 floating around, even though we all think we're talking about the same game. 

1.  Other than two Shep paragon dialoague lines I can think of that make me wince out of entirety of ME2, there's no "kindergarden morality" in either game.  We do however get a few moments when renegade Shep engages in the equivalent of pully ponytails and throwing mud because he thinks it's funny. 

2.  It does?  For starters, I'm sure that Jenkins and the not-survivor of Vermine would disagree with you.  Then there's the not-renegade choice of letting Elnora go, only to find out later that you were a sap.

3.  I guess that some people must find some kind of enjoyment in pretending to be a ******.

4.  At least in ME2, "renegade" is quite often "of course I trust Cerberus, no matter what all the evidence suggests".

I would suggest looking at some of the paragon vs. renegade decision threads floating around the forums and take seriously both sides of the arguments. Your straw man arguments do you no credit.

[Stormy-B]

In the situation noone can know whether or not a decision will "bite them in the ass" or not. Sometimes eliminating a possible threat seems like the safer route to go than waiting to see if it will develop into something ultimately good.

Take Wrex for example, there you stand in unknown territory, outnumbered and preparing to face the deadliest adversary you'd probably ever met. And this violent krogan merc throws a hizzy-fit (understandable, but still). To not take any chances but eliminating him isn't all that senseless if you think about it. It simply comes down to what level of trust you have for a Krogan mercenary that you'd known for a few months or even less. (personally I like Wrex too much and trust him so I've only killed him once for RP reasons)

Or the Rachni, they're a intelligent race of hive-minded insects. To simply trust their word is mental. (I still do this over and over, Paragon over here) It's impossible to gauge something THAT alien based upon their words, to let that queen go is a massive gamble, just like it's a gamble to throw warships away defending the council when you have no idea how difficult of a fight it'll be to take out the reaper that's dryhumping the citadel, or how much the tech from the Collector base will be needed, or whether activating the smartest geth you've ever met might be a huge risk to your crew or not.



It's true however that Renegade Shep when it comes to dialog is a complete dick. But as major decisions go, he/she is simply cold and calculating.



For the record I'd like to say that I like to play as Paragon or Paragade.

[fainmaca]

Or the Geth. When you complete Legion's loyalty quest, you have to choose between blowing up or brainwashing. That is the most 'grey' choice I can think of. Brainwashing is still an evil thing to do, so you are left to decide which is the lesser of two evils (even though the game labels rewrite as paragon). I honestly think rewrite is just as dangerous as doing nothing, as the rewrite could snap back at any moment and boom, you have a whole lot of evil Geth mixed in amongst your friendly Geth, right where you can't nuke them to stop them from causing trouble. There is a prime example of how Renegade could be better.



But, as has been said, we won't know whether a choice has screwed us until ME3 hits the shelves. I'm still waiting for Balak to show up and shoot me in the back.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Another instance in which the simplest explanation is that there are different versions of ME1 and ME2 floating around, even though we all think we're talking about the same game. 

1.  Other than two Shep paragon dialoague lines I can think of that make me wince out of entirety of ME2, there's no "kindergarden morality" in either game.  We do however get a few moments when renegade Shep engages in the equivalent of pully ponytails and throwing mud because he thinks it's funny. 

2.  It does?  For starters, I'm sure that Jenkins and the not-survivor of Vermine would disagree with you.  Then there's the not-renegade choice of letting Elnora go, only to find out later that you were a sap.

3.  I guess that some people must find some kind of enjoyment in pretending to be a ******.

4.  At least in ME2, "renegade" is quite often "of course I trust Cerberus, no matter what all the evidence suggests".

I would suggest looking at some of the paragon vs. renegade decision threads floating around the forums and take seriously both sides of the arguments. Your straw man arguments do you no credit.

A)  I have read many of them.  They seem to mainly consist of people calling each other names.
  Did you not see the post that I was responding to? 

[Shinannigan]

In a way, ME2's core story was extremely renegade-based.

Having seen everything Cerberus did during ME1 the player still has no choice but to go along with them.

The actual Paragon choice (which isn't always the more sensible, but the more ethic choice) might have been to give TIM the finger from the start and look for alternate ways of investigating what happened to the human Colonies. Especially considering some of these Paragons may be Sole Survivors and know that Cerberus is responsible for Akuze.

At the beginning, my Sole Survivor Paragon would have very much liked to have the Normandy SR2 impounded and strip searched by C-Sec, tossing out EDI and any Cerberus surveillance/control equipment and then just continue the mission as a Spectre without Cerberus ties. But alas, that choice wasn't in the cards - luckily, because then Paragons would miss out on TIM's intel, loose a couple of weeks due to Normandy's retrofitting and probably get Ashley/Kaiden and a lot of Colonies be turned into Collector-goo. But still, I had to railroad my Paragon to finish the game, because the ME2 main plot is, essentially, renegade: Achieving success by aligning yourself with (what seems like) the devil.

[oldag07]

It is funny that such a thread like this exists. IGN thinks ME2 is quite the opposite.

The inclusion of specific Paragon and Renegade moments in Mass Effect 2 was a great idea, but there was a major problem: Paragon players got the short end of the stick. The "good" interrupts ranged from healing injured people with the wave of an omni-tool to comforting someone with the magic of carefully chosen words. It was just as exciting as listening to a Hanar drone on about the Enkindlers.



Renegades, on the other hand, were able to shoot first, push people out of windows and trigger explosions. Clearly BioWare is biased and wants to force players into choosing the Renegade route. This imbalance could easily be addressed by tossing in a few "bad-ass" moments appropriate for a good guy – 'stunning' an enemy instead of shooting them or taking out a pack of bullies harming an innocent person.

http://xbox360.ign.c.../1138506p1.html



Some people who play are going to like the paragon options while some like renegade. Those who like the paragon options in the first place will think Bioware is biased toward paragon. Those who like renegade think the opposite. The fact that both criticisms exist shows how will bioware has made the system, not how poorly.

[Manic Sheep]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...


4.  At least in ME2, "renegade" is quite often "of course I trust Cerberus, no matter what all the evidence suggests".

Not true, renegades distrust TIM as well but seems to agree with his methods and want to work with him for the most part regardless (up until the collector ship anyway where renegade throws a hissy fit because TIM manipulated him/her). Oddly renegade is just less of a dick about it to TIMs face.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 17 décembre 2010 - 10:47 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Why choose Renegade big choices?



Morality.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why choose Renegade big choices?

Morality.

Dean, I believe you have forgotten that logic is not a form of morality.

[TomY90]

I think with ME1 and ME2 it is impossible to know whether the paragon decisions was the right decision especially those like save the council, save the rachni, destroying the collector base etc.



Never know could be worse off for doing the ethically right thing. I have a feeling the council will be one of those and the collector base as well

[SSV Enterprise]

Potentially good Renegade choices:



Killing the Council, if you want Cerberus to end up in charge of the galaxy.

Keeping the Collector base, especially if you stay on good terms with Cerberus.

Destroying the geth Heretic base, if you encourage the quarians to go to war with the geth (and vice versa).



With regards to choices such as Wrex, you can use an Intimidate option to keep him alive, so that's not really a renegade/paragon choice.

[Markinator_123]

TomY90 wrote...

I think with ME1 and ME2 it is impossible to know whether the paragon decisions was the right decision especially those like save the council, save the rachni, destroying the collector base etc.

Never know could be worse off for doing the ethically right thing. I have a feeling the council will be one of those and the collector base as well

I believe that saving the council wasn't really all that positive to begin with. The Council is not pro-active with problems. For example, if you saved the old council in ME1 in ME2 after the colony of Horizon disappeared, the council mocks humanity claiming that humanity should handle its own problems and that a fleet would not be used. Likewise, if you let the old council die, after Horizon is taken, Emily Wong states that a council fleet be used in an investigation. I said it before and I will say it again the council does NOT look out for human interests. They don't care about humanity. The old council amounts to nothing more than being arrogant and elitist douchebags. I'm glad I got rid of them. I worried be surprised if they didn't help humanity in ME3 when Earth is being attacked!

Shepard: "Earth is being attacked and I need your help"
Asari Councilour: "Humanity should handle its problems"
Turian Councilour: "Ah yes Earth, the same planet were those aggressive humans come from! We have dismissed that claim!"

[GodWood]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Killing the Rachni - The rachni can colonize a plantet in weeks, sure the queen may not want to start a war but another rachni (who's pissed off their species was wiped out before) might come along and start another war and when they're capable of replenishing their numbers that quick they're a bigger risk than any other species.

Only if there's another queen -- they're mindless, otherwise.  If there is another queen, then killing the queen on Noveria doesn't do any good.   Either way, killing the queen on Noveria doesn't do anything to protect the galaxy from other Rachni.

The rachni queen will produce another queen.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Sacrificing the council to focus on Sovereign - Don't want to risk the entire galaxy when we've got Sovereign backed against the wall.

Ended up taking about 15 seconds of cut-scene for the Alliance fleet to save the Destiny Ascension.  No real delay there.

Not worth arguing.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Blowing up the geth - Risk management.

It's a risk either way.

Indeed, I simply see rewriting them as the bigger risk.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Saving Collector Base - I'm sure I don't have to repeat these reasons.

If you're looking for reasons, then there's nothing to repeat -- there have never been any reasons to actually keep that thing posted, and there never will be.

Oh lord, you can't seriously be telling me you can't even understand why someone might keep the base?

[Homey C-Dawg]

Without making a statement about one being better than the other, playing renegade turns the game into Mass Effect the comedy. Playing paragon turns the game into Mass Effect the after school special. Renegade is objectively more entertaining since it's funnier.

Of course neutral Shepard would be the only one to get anything accomplished IRL. Paragon would get shot in the back and renegade would get shot in the face.

[Dean_the_Young]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why choose Renegade big choices?

Morality.

Dean, I believe you have forgotten that logic is not a form of morality.

Logic is the most basic foundation of morality.

[Markinator_123]

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

Without making a statement about one being better than the other, playing renegade turns the game into Mass Effect the comedy. Playing paragon turns the game into Mass Effect the after school special. Renegade is objectively more entertaining since it's funnier.
Of course neutral Shepard would be the only one to get anything accomplished IRL. Paragon would get shot in the back and renegade would get shot in the face.

I agree with this post!

[The Unfallen]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

Without making a statement about one being better than the other, playing renegade turns the game into Mass Effect the comedy. Playing paragon turns the game into Mass Effect the after school special. Renegade is objectively more entertaining since it's funnier.
Of course neutral Shepard would be the only one to get anything accomplished IRL. Paragon would get shot in the back and renegade would get shot in the face.

I agree with this post!

+1 internetz haha

[Xilizhra]

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

Without making a statement about one being better than the other, playing renegade turns the game into Mass Effect the comedy. Playing paragon turns the game into Mass Effect the after school special. Renegade is objectively more entertaining since it's funnier.
Of course neutral Shepard would be the only one to get anything accomplished IRL. Paragon would get shot in the back and renegade would get shot in the face.

Eh, I don't find hurting people entertaining.

[Markinator_123]

Xilizhra wrote...

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

Without making a statement about one being better than the other, playing renegade turns the game into Mass Effect the comedy. Playing paragon turns the game into Mass Effect the after school special. Renegade is objectively more entertaining since it's funnier.
Of course neutral Shepard would be the only one to get anything accomplished IRL. Paragon would get shot in the back and renegade would get shot in the face.

Eh, I don't find hurting people entertaining.

Those people aren't real.

[thachugabug]

This question is easy, renegades are some badass mother f*******

[Markinator_123]

thachugabug wrote...

This question is easy, renegades are some badass mother f*******

Overall, I prefer anti-heroes in fiction. Clean cut heroes bore me to tears. Interestingly, you don't have to be a full renegade to be considered an anti-hero. I considered my 80P/65R (approximately) a type IV anti-hero.

http://www.xfire.com...?view#107180575

Modifié par Markinator_123, 18 décembre 2010 - 02:44 .

[Xilizhra]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

Without making a statement about one being better than the other, playing renegade turns the game into Mass Effect the comedy. Playing paragon turns the game into Mass Effect the after school special. Renegade is objectively more entertaining since it's funnier.
Of course neutral Shepard would be the only one to get anything accomplished IRL. Paragon would get shot in the back and renegade would get shot in the face.

Eh, I don't find hurting people entertaining.

Those people aren't real.

I know; I don't like hurting not-real people either.

[Markinator_123]

Xilizhra wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

Without making a statement about one being better than the other, playing renegade turns the game into Mass Effect the comedy. Playing paragon turns the game into Mass Effect the after school special. Renegade is objectively more entertaining since it's funnier.
Of course neutral Shepard would be the only one to get anything accomplished IRL. Paragon would get shot in the back and renegade would get shot in the face.

Eh, I don't find hurting people entertaining.

Those people aren't real.

I know; I don't like hurting not-real people either.

Then why are you indulging yourself in the violent storylines that both Mass Effect 2 and Dragon age have?

[Xilizhra]

I enjoy the story more than the combat (in fact, I kind of hate DA's combat). In any case, I can accept the necessity of killing people in battle, since they're trying to kill me. I'd just rather not hurt people when I can avoid it.