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[RiouHotaru]

In light of more recent arguments, and given that I now have the hardware in which to do so, I have decided to create a series of videos about the frequently debated issue of Paragon vs. Renegade in Mass Effect.  These videos are a defense of the Paragon reasoning for decisions in both ME1 and ME2, which is often cited by Renegades as being "naive", "irrational and illogical", and "wishful thinking".  On top of that, there are also arguments that Paragons seem to be able to make decisions completely consequence-free, which leads to people making Paragon decisions solely on the meta-gaming stance that it won't bite them in the ass, ignoring the story-telling and role-playing aspect.

This is a stance that I feel is incorrect, or at least, not accurate to all Paragons.  As an admitted Paragon myself (at least 85-90% Paragon) I feel that this persecution and bashing is largely inappropriate.  Paragon reasonings can be as much cemented in logical and critical thought as the Renegades can, even if emotion or morality plays a part in this decision.  These videos are my attempt to give me and my fellow Paragon's reasonings a satisfactory defense.

Please note that I do mention both the consequences and the reasoning in these videos, as Renegades argue both aspects interchangably with regards to Paragon choices.  These videos are technically biased in favor of the Paragons, but the Renegade reasonings often need no defense for their actions, and their reasonings aren't the point of my videos.

Here are the videos currently released, and those currently being planned:

Mass Effect 1 Decisions

1) The Rachni Queen:

2) Dealing With Balak: 

3) The Fate of the Council: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MD5FCbJRH4

Mass Effect 2 Decisions

1) The Collector Base: WIP


Please feel free to comment or critique my videos, and discuss the issues among yourselves, but please do so in a civil manner.  I wouldn't want this thread locked down for people getting into fights.

Also, if you have any suggestions on decisions you want me to cover, or whether you think the decisions I have in the planning stage are video-worthy, please, let me know here or through PMs.

One final note: As this is done primarily on my free-time, I can't guarantee the regularity of these vids.  Please be patient with me while I work on them.  It's not easy recording the audio or finding the appropriate clips for the videos in question.

EDIT: Redid the OP to reflect the fact it's no longer my first video, also, second video AWAY!

EDIT (December 15th): Added third video, finally got to the Council video everyone was asking for!

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 16 décembre 2010 - 06:12 .

[Swerodent]

Good job! Looking forward to the next video!

[RiouHotaru]

Ah, finally, an answer! With all the views and no replies I was afraid I was scaring everyone away XD

[JediHealerCosmin]

Very informative, I like it. I like hearing people discuss these kind of things, mostly because in my country everyone plays WoW, and BioWare fans are very rare

As for the subject itself, there are various ways we can look at the situation. However, I really believe that BioWare will add some kind of negative consequence when it comes to the Rachni decision. Otherwise, it would be unfair for the Renegades. 

In any event, looking forward to the next one.

Modifié par JediHealerCosmin, 14 décembre 2010 - 10:45 .

[RiouHotaru]

But how exactly is it unfair? I've never had it explained why exactly Renegades consider the Paragon choice "unfair". It would be nice to have some insight.

[Bozorgmehr]

Interesting vid, I too have some issues with the Par/Ren thing - I prefer the DA:O system, just consequences no good/bad system. And your first example (Rachni Queen) sums it all up; I don't think Shep will be remember for his/her 'goodness' by potential victims of a new Rachni outbreak



Nice vid and commentary though you do want to record the next vid in 16:9 for best results on YT (but you've figured that out yourself already). I've uploaded a couple of vids myself (gameplay) and experimented with different software to get the most out of it. Feel free to PM me if you have questions or looking for some tips. I'm happy to help

[RiouHotaru]

Well, Paragon/Renegade may feel inferior to DA:O, but remember the difference in genre and setting.  DA:O is a Crapsack World, it's a much more nitty-gritty, Darker And Edgier sort of place.  Mass Effect 2 (the franchise) has it's Darkier and Edgier installment, but at it's heart it's still a Space Opera, more than anything else.  So the way ME handles "morality" (though it isn't true morality, it's as close as a video game can get), fits it's setting.  If you ask me.

Actually, I'm not recording anything. The clips were taken from other YT vids using a downloader, since I don't own Mass Effect on the PC. The audio is recorded using Audacity, and I have Sony Vegas Pro 10 for the actual editing and splicing of the clips.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 14 décembre 2010 - 11:06 .

[JediHealerCosmin]

RiouHotaru wrote...

But how exactly is it unfair? I've never had it explained why exactly Renegades consider the Paragon choice "unfair". It would be nice to have some insight.

Well, from my perspective, noble choices have consequences as well. Especially in BioWare games, the ending isn't going to be all perfect even for Paragons.

As far as the Rachni decision goes, th good guys get an extra set of "legs" to help when the time comes. Here, if people chose to kill them merely because their Shep didn't trust the queen, then I believe the odds have to be somewhat equal. Meaning that Renegades should have a bonus as well based on their way of thinking (although I believe that's where the Collector Base comes in).

[RiouHotaru]

JediHealerCosmin wrote...
Well, from my perspective, noble choices have consequences as well. Especially in BioWare games, the ending isn't going to be all perfect even for Paragons.

As far as the Rachni decision goes, th good guys get an extra set of "legs" to help when the time comes. Here, if people chose to kill them merely because their Shep didn't trust the queen, then I believe the odds have to be somewhat equal. Meaning that Renegades should have a bonus as well based on their way of thinking (although I believe that's where the Collector Base comes in).

True, but the Collector Base is a decision independent of the Rachni Queen.  I could've chosen to kill the Queen AND destroy the base.  Or save the Queen and keep the Base.  But until ME3 comes around and we know anything concrete, so at the moment the Renegades haven't technically "lost" anything yet.  But, gameplay issues aside, I hope I made the story-wise issue of saving the Queen make more sense.

[Katamariguy]

Great job.

[LorDC]

1) You should really work on your voice.

2) You are trying to argue meta-game problem with in-game argumentation. You can find reason for any in-game decision. But Paragon decision are generally more risky than Renegade ones by their nature. Paragon Shepard is always playing the game of believe/not believe. And never loses. And even recieves pat on the back each time. While Renegades gain nothing.

[RiouHotaru]

LorDC wrote...

1) You should really work on your voice.
2) You are trying to argue meta-game problem with in-game argumentation. You can find reason for any in-game decision. But Paragon decision are generally more risky than Renegade ones by their nature. Paragon Shepard is always playing the game of believe/not believe. And never loses. And even recieves pat on the back each time. While Renegades gain nothing.

1) What specifically about my voice?  If it's the bits of of stuttering or me making mistakes, I can't help that much.  Or is it the volume?

2) Well, it's a bit of both.  Renegade forumites have argued for more meta-game and in-game.  Meta, in that Bioware doesn't feel the need to "punish" the Paragon, and in-game, because the decisions are ones that they argue most people would never pick if presented as such in real life.  It's a story-vs-gameplay issue, but the two are more related than you think.

[LorDC]

RiouHotaru wrote...
1) What specifically about my voice?  If it's the bits of of stuttering or me making mistakes, I can't help that much.  Or is it the volume?

2) Well, it's a bit of both.  Renegade forumites have argued for more meta-game and in-game.  Meta, in that Bioware doesn't feel the need to "punish" the Paragon, and in-game, because the decisions are ones that they argue most people would never pick if presented as such in real life.  It's a story-vs-gameplay issue, but the two are more related than you think.

1) Well, it may be obvious but you sound like it is your first time speaking for public. Just calm down and it will be ok.
2) Problem is basically: what's the point of decision if you don't have to pay the price?

[RiouHotaru]

LorDC wrote...
1) Well, it may be obvious but you sound like it is your first time speaking for public. Just calm down and it will be ok.
2) Problem is basically: what's the point of decision if you don't have to pay the price?

1) Hahaha, well, in a manner of speaking it is.  I've never done this sort of thing before.  Don't worry, I'm sure with my next videos it'll get easier.
2) Good point.  But the "price" seems to vary from decision-to-decision, and in some of them the cost isn't readily apparently.

[Xilizhra]

2) Problem is basically: what's the point of decision if you don't have to pay the price?

It's called fun.

And your first example (Rachni Queen) sums it all up; I don't think Shep will be remember for his/her 'goodness' by potential victims of a new Rachni outbreak

I imagine she'll be remembered well when the rachni help out.

[DrBobcat]

Excellent job. I agree you across the board as well and wish you best of luck with the series. I'll certainly be watching any more episodes that come out.

[RiouHotaru]

Definitely. Within the next few days I'll do a second video regarding Bring Down The Sky, and the precieved imbalance when dealing with Balak.

[Zombie Chow]

I thought it was a very good commentary. Thank you for doing this. The Rachni Queen issue was a major decision I pondered for a long time, but you raised some great points I never considered.



Watching his was fun because, as I look forward to ME3, reflecting on my past decisions is very important. So even without thinking about the video or your analysis, this idea was full of win.



Oh, and your presentation was fine. You came off as passionate rather than nervous (I know you're worried about that, don't), which is more interesting to listen to. I look forward to your next video.

[Encarmine]

JediHealerCosmin wrote...

Very informative, I like it. I like hearing people discuss these kind of things, mostly because in my country everyone plays WoW, and BioWare fans are very rare

As for the subject itself, there are various ways we can look at the situation. However, I really believe that BioWare will add some kind of negative consequence when it comes to the Rachni decision. Otherwise, it would be unfair for the Renegades. 

In any event, looking forward to the next one.

OO you have my attention, befor i can read on, i must know, what country you speak of?

[implodinggoat]

I released the Rachni in ME1 due to the permanence of the decision to exterminate their entire speciees.  I didn't necessarily believe that the Rachi were indeed trustworthy; but if you kill the queen then there's no way to undo that decision.

As for the Paragon and Renegade decisions not being fair, I don't think that both decisions necesarily need to give you some form of advantage so long as on the whole both the Paragon and Renegade paths give you a viable path to victory.

For example in ME2 if you're a Paragon you decide to blow up the Collector base at the end of the game (I did so because there was no chance in hell that I was going to entrust Cerberus with that sort of tech).  I think it would be totally appropriate if keeping the base gave Renegades an advantage that Paragons lack; but an advantage which some of humanity's potential allies may rightfully be frightened of.

So if you take the Paragon path you'll have an advantage when it comes to getting allies to help you destroy the Reapers; but if you take the Renegade path humanity itself will have more power, albeit power of a morally questionable nature which is likely controlled by the Illusive Man.

The way I figure it if you go Renegade Cerberus is going to be a more potent ally in ME3; but as a result of your loyalty to Cerberus the rest of the galaxy is going to be less sympathetic towards humanity.  So maybe if you save the Rachni in ME1; but proceed to side with Cerberus in ME2 and keep the Collector Base, the Rachni will decide they want nothing to do with you in ME3.

[Vaenier]

Very nice vid man. It was well thought out and delivered quite smoothly.

I would like to point out that for the Rachni, I actually wanted to preform a reasonable middle ground action but was railroaded into the extremes. I wanted to keep the queen under observation. Crazy, I know, why would anybody want to verify blind claims of peace... But it was kill or release, blind faith or ignorance. Alot of these decisions I have to make due with what I have, so I chose blind faith for the rachni when i really wanted to pick observation.

[lastpatriot]

RiouHotaru,
 
I just finished watching your analysis video and I first must say that there is nothing wrong with your voice so ignore those folks….

My main character is a “renagon” in that she was a colonist and due to the events of her childhood, she became rather cold, bitter, and vengeful.  However, she is also a soldier at heart and knows that stragety and allies will be needed to defeat the Reapers.  So, with that being said, here is my limited opinion on your conclusions from the more renegade perspective:

1.  I agree with your conclusion.  Surprised?  Don’t be.  From the perspective of my character, the comments made by the queen were logical and a high plausibility.  Also, considering the destructive force that they were in the past, the possibility of having these critters as an ally against the Reapers was simply too great to pass up.  Will there likely be problems with the Krogan?  Possibly but my Shep doesn’t really give a crap.

2.  Like others, I do feel that the paragon option would be more realistic were there to be consequences to their actions.  Take Zaeed’s(sp) mission as an example.  If you select the paragon option and save the scientists, it would make more sense for Zaeed to betray you at the end. 

3.  Hmm… can’t remember what my 3rd point was….
 

Modifié par lastpatriot, 14 décembre 2010 - 01:34 .

[Weskerr]

The only argument you made in support of releasing the Rachni Queen that isn't justified is the "There were no diplomatic Rachni during the Rachni Wars, whereas the current Rachni Queen offered reasonable dialogue. Therefore, the current Rachni are rational and should be given a chance." This argument is unjustified simply because it is never said either in the game or in the codex if the Rachni during the Rachni Wars ever spoke to the Council races or if they just attacked viciously and ruthlessly without communicating to the Council at all. There is not enough information to determine this.

[Lunatic LK47]

Weskerr wrote...

The only argument you made in support of releasing the Rachni Queen that isn't justified is the "There were no diplomatic Rachni during the Rachni Wars, whereas the current Rachni Queen offered reasonable dialogue. Therefore, the current Rachni are rational and should be given a chance." This argument is unjustified simply because it is never said either in the game or in the codex if the Rachni during the Rachni Wars ever spoke to the Council races or if they just attacked viciously and ruthlessly without communicating to the Council at all. There is not enough information to determine this.

Uh, Avina (the tourist hologram) did say that the Rachni viciously attacked anyone that visited a Rachni homeworld with no attempts at communication. Go to the Presidium in Mass Effect 1 and talk to the Avina terminal in front of the Krogan Statue.

[Weskerr]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

The only argument you made in support of releasing the Rachni Queen that isn't justified is the "There were no diplomatic Rachni during the Rachni Wars, whereas the current Rachni Queen offered reasonable dialogue. Therefore, the current Rachni are rational and should be given a chance." This argument is unjustified simply because it is never said either in the game or in the codex if the Rachni during the Rachni Wars ever spoke to the Council races or if they just attacked viciously and ruthlessly without communicating to the Council at all. There is not enough information to determine this.

Uh, Avina (the tourist hologram) did say that the Rachni viciously attacked anyone that visited a Rachni homeworld with no attempts at communication. Go to the Presidium in Mass Effect 1 and talk to the Avina terminal in front of the Krogan Statue.

I did as you suggested and cyclyed through all the dialogue. Avina never says anything about the Rachni attempting to communicate - or not attempting to communicate.