150 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

Second video AHOOOYYY!

[RiouHotaru]

[Sorry, accidental double-post]

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 15 décembre 2010 - 05:59 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Nice analysis but those two incidences aren't the hot topics, the big ones are the Council decision (ME1) and Collector Base decision (ME2).

I think it goes without saying that Paragons are your "Safe Bet" choice groups... and it's expected that most players will favor Paragon choices naturally (unless uh...)

Look forward to hearing your take on those two choices.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 15 décembre 2010 - 07:18 .

[atheelogos]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Ah, finally, an answer! With all the views and no replies I was afraid I was scaring everyone away XD

lol^_^

[RiouHotaru]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Nice analysis but those two incidences aren't the hot topics, the big ones are the Council decision (ME1) and Collector Base decision (ME2).

I think it goes without saying that Paragons are your "Safe Bet" choice groups... and it's expected that most players will favor Paragon choices naturally (unless uh...)

Look forward to hearing your take on those two choices.

Well, the Council one is the final ME1 choice, and the Collector Base is my guaranteed ME2 decision.  But the Balak argument has been tossed around a few times, especially during any discussion of Paragon reasonings.  Part of the "blind faith" argument afterall.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Nice analysis but those two incidences aren't the hot topics, the big ones are the Council decision (ME1) and Collector Base decision (ME2).

I think it goes without saying that Paragons are your "Safe Bet" choice groups... and it's expected that most players will favor Paragon choices naturally (unless uh...)

Look forward to hearing your take on those two choices.

Well, the Council one is the final ME1 choice, and the Collector Base is my guaranteed ME2 decision.  But the Balak argument has been tossed around a few times, especially during any discussion of Paragon reasonings.  Part of the "blind faith" argument afterall.

I agree with you on both counts so far... heck I was paragon with the Rachni Queen myself (never played the DLC but would've done the Paragon choice there too).  But for the Council and the Collector Base I chose the Renegade decision, so it'll be interesting to hear/see how you break those down.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 15 décembre 2010 - 07:33 .

[RiouHotaru]

Oh don't worry, I expect a strong response when I do those two decisions.

[Nashiktal]

You see, I would love it a whole lot more if it was more clear that Paragon and Renegade does not equal good and evil.



The very fact bioware is constraining themselves to just the P and R aspect is probably what hampers these decisions, and causes so much conflict. The fact you get paragon and renegade points for, as mentioned before, personality choices and actual major decisions, you get a sort of jilted connection between the decisions.



I don't know how they could properly rectify this. But Paragon isnt supposed to be "good" or "nice". Its supposed to be professional, by the books kind of guy. Renegade is not "bad" or "evil", but supposed to be a "whatever" works at all costs sort of person.



Anything else attached to that, nice guy, ****, generous, stingy, should be personality traits, not P and R decisions.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I looked at Paragons as the sort of sympathetic, ocassionally passive, rule-abiding group that favors the "people/feelings" over all else whereas Renegads are aggressive, occasionally selfish, rule-enforcing group that favors the "law/order" over all else.



Your basic Yin/Yang...

[RiouHotaru]

Heh, Yin/Yang actually sounds pretty nifty.

[Nashiktal]

Nope. You are attaching character traits to P and R. Paragon's are the model of excellence, and with bioware's case, model soldier.



Renegade is defined as a deserter, one who breaks away and becomes an outlaw. Or in bioware's case the complete opposite of a model soldier. A person who does what he deems necessary and follows his own rules so to speak.



These do not speak of nice or bad. A renegade can follow his own rules, going against regulations by getting a fake passport for someone who is stuck in a rather ridiculous customs security check. In this case he does do a good thing, but break the rules as a renegade would.



A paragon would ensure they follow all the regulations. Every check, every step, even if it meant they would be stuck in bureaucratic limbo for years, and you could not help speed things along at all. You would be a complete paragon, but in this scenario you would also be a complete ass as well.

[klossen4]

renegade is Saren really before he gone rogue

Modifié par klossen4, 15 décembre 2010 - 07:52 .

[CroGamer002]

Nicely done.
I'd like to add this thread that covered Renegades will be rewarded few days ago.

Modifié par Mesina2, 15 décembre 2010 - 08:19 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Nashiktal wrote...

Nope. You are attaching character traits to P and R. Paragon's are the model of excellence, and with bioware's case, model soldier.

Character traits are part of the P and R alignment.  Case and point, hugging Tali (when she finds her father) is a Paragon choice... and completely character-trait based.



Paragon = Think of the people and immediate good

Renegades = Think of the law and greater good

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 15 décembre 2010 - 08:45 .

[CroGamer002]

Main Paragon choices:

1. Rachni.

As you said it will make a lot of problems for Shepard for keeping Rachni alive, especially with Krogans and even Wrex isn't found with them. So, huge problem. But still Paragons will get extra "man" against Reapers. Very big extra.
There is no advantage in killing Rachni but nether disadvantage so there's a balance.

2. The Council.

I'm not really found with the Council( my canon is Paragon and he let them die) but I guess there's something in keeping them alive.
You know, majority of aliens don't hate human guts, instead they treat them as heroes. Well, mot all( Joram Talid).
While killing them at that time biggest excuse is "we need all ships to use against Sovereign" and with that one I stick with. For human dominance I think it's terrible idea so Anderson is obvious choice for councilor.

3. Collector base.

Let's see. Keeping base for terrorist organization and technology there we saw was used for creating Reaper and husks. Not a good idea.
But I'm sure there will be some fancy equipment for vaporizing Reapers and their minions. Plus pissing off TIM not really good idea ether.



I'm missing few more major Paragon choices but I'll tell them tomorrow.
Off to play Dragon Age.

[Lunatic LK47]

klossen4 wrote...

renegade is Saren really before he gone rogue

Uh, no. Saren was the epitome of Stupid Evil just because he lost his brother.

[TheRevanchist]

Wow...I am so happy to finally see legitimate defense for us Paragoner's. I'm rather tierd of Renegade people saying were basicly idiotic for making these choices. You present these cases very well, bravo to you sir. I can't wait for your defense of saving the Council because I am of the mind that saving is the best choice you could possibly make (even without meta gaming). My first playthrough I thought to myself "if I sacrifice a few human ships doing this, I'll still have that BA dreadnaught DA to help kill Sovy who's main gun is said to be basicly the ultimate win button" While it didn't work out that way the day was saved all the same. Just because I thought that does not make my choice any less logical then sacrificeing them for more ships. Because DA is = to like...100 ships alone at least! Pluse the only reason DA was so suckzor was because it was far too close to enemy ships to legitimetly fight back. All it had was GUARDIAN lasers, and really...look how long it kept that ship alive basicly single handed? Pluse contrary to many peoples thoughts....I actually LIKE the Council...even the Turian!...amazing isn't it?

[Nashiktal]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Nope. You are attaching character traits to P and R. Paragon's are the model of excellence, and with bioware's case, model soldier.

Character traits are part of the P and R alignment. Case and point, hugging Tali (when she finds her father) is a Paragon choice... and completely character-trait based.



Paragon = Think of the people and immediate good

Renegades = Think of the law and greater good

You don't get it, that is the entire point. Bioware originally had it without the character traits, at least in idea. However because they tied P and R so closely into the gameplay themselves, P and R got warped and mixed in character traits, not only polarizing P as naive and goody two shoes, but R as dickish, incompetent, and lacking in rewards because they are "evil".

So you have it all wrong. Hell I told you the direct definition for P and R, and you are still pushing Paragon as good guy, and renegade as bad guy.

Besides the Tali thing would actually be considered Renegade. Is it a nice thing to do? Yes. However you are pausing the mission, stopping what you are doing to comfort a teammate. A true Paragon would tell tali to brush it off, and continue the mission. Any mourning or comforting would wait until the mission is complete.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 15 décembre 2010 - 11:14 .

[TheRevanchist]

Nashiktal wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Nope. You are attaching character traits to P and R. Paragon's are the model of excellence, and with bioware's case, model soldier.

Character traits are part of the P and R alignment. Case and point, hugging Tali (when she finds her father) is a Paragon choice... and completely character-trait based.



Paragon = Think of the people and immediate good

Renegades = Think of the law and greater good

You don't get it, that is the entire point. Bioware originally had it without the character traits, at least in idea. However because they tied P and R so closely into the gameplay themselves, P and R got warped and mixed in character traits, not only polarizing P as naive and goody two shoes, but R as dickish, incompetent, and lacking in rewards because they are "evil".

So you have it all wrong. Hell I told you the direct definition for P and R, and you are still pushing Paragon as good guy, and renegade as bad guy.

Besides the Tali thing would actually be considered Renegade. Is it a nice thing to do? Yes. However you are pausing the mission, stopping what you are doing to comfort a teammate. A true Paragon would tell tali to brush it off, and continue the mission. Any mourning or comforting would wait until the mission is complete.

So basicly you are arguing that Paragon and Renegade are basicly the exact oppisite in ME compaired to what they really define.

[Nashiktal]

In a sense. I am saying good and evil has nothing to do with P and R. A paragon shep can be an ass or a saint, as long as he acts like a professional soldier would. A renegade could be an ass or a saint as long as he did things his own way.



I made that example with the couple stuck in customs, to highlight those very reasons. Shall I make another?

[Xilizhra]

Actually, yes, it's rather interesting.

[TheRevanchist]

Not at all...I know exactly what your saying...my Shepard simply likes helping people for the most part...but when it gets down to brass tacks...he does he HE considers the smart thing. Which tend to be Paragon choices. But at the same time he is not blind by the obvious benifits of some Renegade choices. Like taseing the Batarian fixing the gunship (besides that being the funniest damn thing in the world) he knows it won't get fixed in case they use it. but fails to see the point of pushing the eclipse guy out of the window. (even thought thats also hilarious)

Modifié par kylecouch, 15 décembre 2010 - 11:40 .

[Nashiktal]

No no no. Paragon does not equal helpful and nice. Paragon equals by the book.

Look, i'm not condemning choices, i'm condemning Bioware shoehorning morality into this. Morality is entirely different from P and R.

For example, remember the Rachni decision? That isn't paragon and renegade. That is Renegade/good or Renegade/evil.

The Paragon thing to do would be to report the Rachni to the Citadel, send it through proper channels up the chain of command. This isn't smart or stupid, or good or evil. It's Paragon.

Letting the Rachni go is actually Renegade. Without prior approval from the chain of command, you unleash a (potentially) dangerous creature into the universe. (I let the rachni go btw)

Killing the Rachni? Also Renegade for the same reason above. The difference? One is a "good" as in nice guy choice, the other is "evil" for committing Genocide, but both are Renegade.

There are various reasons to do all of the choices above, However any decision Bioware allowed you to make concerning the Rachni is by default, Renegade. Yet they assign paragon points for releasing the Rachni, which isn't a Paragon act.

See what I am saying?

Modifié par Nashiktal, 15 décembre 2010 - 11:54 .

[RiouHotaru]

Nashiktal wrote...

No no no. Paragon does not equal helpful and nice. Paragon equals by the book.

Look, i'm not condemning choices, i'm condemning Bioware shoehorning morality into this. Morality is entirely different from P and R.

For example, remember the Rachni decision? That isn't paragon and renegade. That is Renegade/good or Renegade/evil.

The Paragon thing to do would be to report the Rachni to the Citadel, send it through proper channels up the chain of command. This isn't smart or stupid, or good or evil. It's Paragon.

Letting the Rachni go is actually Renegade. Without prior approval from the chain of command, you unleash a (potentially) dangerous creature into the universe. (I let the rachni go btw)

Killing the Rachni? Also Renegade for the same reason above. The difference? One is a "good" as in nice guy choice, the other is "evil" for committing Genocide, but both are Renegade.

There are various reasons to do all of the choices above, However any decision Bioware allowed you to make concerning the Rachni is by default, Renegade. Yet they assign paragon points for releasing the Rachni, which isn't a Paragon act.

See what I am saying?

Except that there isn't a "chain of command" to follow.  You answer to the Council, but you don't necessarily follow their orders.  They just give you an assignment, and you get full discretion in how to handle that assignment.

You have a point that Bioware's use of "Paragon" and "Renegade" don't fit the literal definition, but it's at least  better set of terms than "Good" and "Evil" because that's not what Shepard is doing.

[Nashiktal]

In a sense there is. Since a Paragon is "by the book", Shep would contact the council and at least allow himself to be advised on what is to be done. Is it the smart thing to do? That is debatable, but it is what a "by the books" character would do.



I'm not asking for a good or evil, nice and naughty bar. I'm just pointing out the Flaw in biowares system.



Perhaps they could trim the fat, and make P and R more important by only awarding the points in more important and proper scenarios, but that is just conjecture. I'm just trying to clarify here.