284 réponses à ce sujet

[M8DMAN]

Jorina Leto wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Jorina Leto wrote...

MassEffect762 wrote...

The second would be all weapons(not heavy) cool themselves gradually with thermals speeding things up.

What would really grind my gears is having to look down for thermal clips(so uncessary and lame imo), I'd rather they just auto-loot once you take down an enemy.

My 00.2

This.

Which would negate the whole point of thermal clips in the first place which is to force you out of comfy cover positions. Not to mention it is highly unrealistic.

It is unrealistic to abandon the Overheat system of ME1 and replace it with the running out of shots. It doesn't make any sense if an unused weapon doesn't cooling.

And your gameplay argument just makes Shepard look stupid, because s/he is the only person in the ME universe relying upon the enemy's heat sinks.

I agree bioware should have went with a hybrid system instead of getting rid of the overheat system all together.

[Praetor Knight]

An alternative to recycling thermal clips is making more thermal clips with the omnitool.

ME established that items you find in the field can be converted into omnigel, so why not use that omnigel to make thermal clips?

Otherwise it would be better to stay with the ME2 combat system.

[Ahglock]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

An alternative to recycling thermal clips is making more thermal clips with the omnitool.
ME established that items you find in the field can be converted into omnigel, so why not use that omnigel to make thermal clips?
Otherwise it would be better to stay with the ME2 combat system.

You could recylce them, just make it something that happens out of combat.  Combat music ends, they cool down.  It doesn't make total sense, but it is effectively the same to what they do now, where you pick up a couple clips and magically you are full.  There seems to be one magic clip in many fights or the heavy weapon ammo crates that fully restores ammo, probably so you don't go into a boss fight low on ammo.  So I don't see a gameplay issue with ammo being a per fight resource since they find ways to refill you anyways.  Kind of like encounter powers in 4e D&D and heavy weapon ammo is mor elike the dailies. Heck and it would make more sense than collectors dropping the same clips. 

[Rahzar]

Here's the hybrid ME1 / ME2 ammo idea that I have in my blog (link to blog is in my sig):

Shepard initially uses the overheating piece of metal (ammo of ME1).  The overheating aspect of the old "ammo" would be exaggerated, making weapons overheat relatively quickly**.    When the weapon overheats, it will automatically start using thermal clips.  Thermal clips will remain in use until the weapon cools back down (when Shepard stops firing for a few seconds).  When the weapon is cooled down, the piece of metal will automatically be in use once again.
** The purpose of an exaggerated overheat would be to support why the switch to thermal clips was ever made.

[sinosleep]

Jorina Leto wrote...

It is unrealistic to abandon the Overheat system of ME1 and replace it with the running out of shots. It doesn't make any sense if an unused weapon doesn't cooling.

And your gameplay argument just makes Shepard look stupid, because s/he is the only person in the ME universe relying upon the enemy's heat sinks.

Not if you never found the original cooling system to be realistic in the first place. M249 gunners carry extra barrels because automatic weapons that get fired long enough to heat a barrel to the point where it needs to be swapped out usually heats the barrel to the point that it's rendered ENTIRELY useless forever.

Which is why I never thought the original cooling method made any sense and that fire and forget heatsinks do. It gets hot to the point where it becomes worthless and so you swap it with another one. When you are dealing with temperatures that would result from the energy expended to fire the shavings as fast as the weapons are supposedly firing them no amount "air cooling" or waiting is going to matter. Whatever it is that's collecting such a tremendous amount of heat should be rendered useless.

[revengeance]

sinosleep wrote...

Jorina Leto wrote...

It is unrealistic to abandon the Overheat system of ME1 and replace it with the running out of shots. It doesn't make any sense if an unused weapon doesn't cooling.

And your gameplay argument just makes Shepard look stupid, because s/he is the only person in the ME universe relying upon the enemy's heat sinks.

Not if you never found the original cooling system to be realistic in the first place. M249 gunners carry extra barrels because automatic weapons that get fired long enough to heat a barrel to the point where it needs to be swapped out usually heats the barrel to the point that it's rendered ENTIRELY useless forever.

Which is why I never thought the original cooling method made any sense and that fire and forget heatsinks do. It gets hot to the point where it becomes worthless and so you swap it with another one. When you are dealing with temperatures that would result from the energy expended to fire the shavings as fast as the weapons are supposedly firing them no amount "air cooling" or waiting is going to matter. Whatever it is that's collecting such a tremendous amount of heat should be rendered useless.

I think the first system would be very feasable that far in the future with alien technologies around to boot. I would imagine we would have energy sources in the future that would never need replacing maybe only break periods to regenerate energy. Also I would never say the weapons were useless, they may have had a safety ( an automatic cut off) that stopped the gun from ever getting to a point where it would become useless or at all damaged and stopped it for a brief cooldown period.

I would much rather have a gun with infinite ammo and fire it in interavals that would never make it overheat than have limited ammo. And if i ever got in to trouble i have a sidearm or two to fall back on while my main weapon cools. I find it a far better option than having limited supplies and running the danger of not being able to defend myself period.

Who is to say in the future they would not have rediculous systems to cool these weapons with?

Also, i think the military would far rather have a weapon that never run's out of ammo! and when fired in a controlled manner would never even need to cool off. And at most they would never completely discontinue use of such a technology that has so many advantages in certain situations maybe they would use both.

Modifié par revengeance, 20 décembre 2010 - 01:42 .

[Ahglock]

I always assumed the ME1 heat system was an automatic cut off before the heat reached a point of permanent damage so it could cool safely.

[sinosleep]

In war suppressing fire is incredibly important, which is why I can buy the get more down range excuse they made for ME 2. It's the same reason a weapon like a m249 is better than a m16 at laying down suppressing fire. You can put more rounds down range with one than the other, doesn't matter one damned bit to a general that the m249 requires more rounds. And suppressing fire is pretty much THE way to move around a battle field.

If you are trying to get to a group of enemies the easiest way to get to them is by laying down enough suppressing fire with part of your men that the others can move without fear of getting shot at and catch the enemy with their pants down. According to the new lore heatsinks allow you to accomplish this task in an easier manner than passive cooling.

Modifié par sinosleep, 20 décembre 2010 - 01:42 .

[revengeance]

sinosleep wrote...

In war suppressing fire is incredibly important, which is why I can buy the get more down range excuse they made for ME 2. It's the same reason a weapon like a m249 is better than a m16 at laying down suppressing fire. You can put more rounds down range with one than the other, doesn't matter one damned bit to a general that the m249 requires more rounds. And suppressing fire is pretty much THE way to move around a battle field.

If you are trying to get to a group of enemies the easiest way to get to them is by laying down enough suppressing fire with part of your men that the others can move without fear of getting shot at and catch the enemy with their pants down. According to the new lore heatsinks allow you to accomplish this task in an easier manner than passive cooling.

Well in the old system, i could get my weapons to have no overheat with the correct mod's and sink's lol, so again laying down suppression is no problem either. also if we could not do this then why not do another solution i posted, the fact that both technologies would be used?

It's not even as if any of this arguement matter's they only changed this to try add tension in battle and make it more interesting.

Modifié par revengeance, 20 décembre 2010 - 01:46 .

[sinosleep]

And I think the lore makes it pretty damned clear that not everyone and their mother has access to the kind of mods Shepard does or the lore justification would have never been written since as you said, with the right weapons and mods Shepard's gear fires indefinitely.

[Praetor Knight]

revengeance wrote...

Well in the old system, i could get my weapons to have no overheat with the correct mod's and sink's lol, so again laying down suppression is no problem either. also if we could not do this then why not do another solution i posted, the fact that both technologies would be used?

It's not even as if any of this arguement matter's they only changed this to try add tension in battle and make it more interesting.

What about the Sabotage talent of ME? The reason it was taken out in ME2 was that it became useless, when a new thermal clip can be instantly placed in the weapon.

And then there's the overheat bug, which might actually have been a feature.

[DialupToaster]

I tried the mass effect 2 demo and played mass effect 1. My point is I hate charging a mech with a shotty as a vanguard only to have to reload as it blows me away. Aside from that I like both systems and a hybrid sounds like the best solution.

[Praetor Knight]

Rahzar wrote...

Here's the hybrid ME1 / ME2 ammo idea that I have in my blog (link to blog is in my sig):

Shepard initially uses the overheating piece of metal (ammo of ME1).  The overheating aspect of the old "ammo" would be exaggerated, making weapons overheat relatively quickly**.    When the weapon overheats, it will automatically start using thermal clips.  Thermal clips will remain in use until the weapon cools back down (when Shepard stops firing for a few seconds).  When the weapon is cooled down, the piece of metal will automatically be in use once again.
** The purpose of an exaggerated overheat would be to support why the switch to thermal clips was ever made.

I've read this a few times and I'm still confused. Could you elaborate a little more?

So far I picture that there are two heat sinks in use, one that is actively cooled and a second that is disposable. Is that correct?

Thanks in advance.
Edit: Oh, and I did check your blog before I posted.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 20 décembre 2010 - 02:07 .

[Praetor Knight]

randomchasegurney wrote...

I tried the mass effect 2 demo and played mass effect 1. My point is I hate charging a mech with a shotty as a vanguard only to have to reload as it blows me away. Aside from that I like both systems and a hybrid sounds like the best solution.

You could try to charge like this.

Ahglock wrote...

You could recycle them, just make it something that happens out of combat.  Combat music ends, they cool down.  It doesn't make total sense, but it is effectively the same to what they do now, where you pick up a couple clips and magically you are full.  There seems to be one magic clip in many fights or the heavy weapon ammo crates that fully restores ammo, probably so you don't go into a boss fight low on ammo.

I didn't think of that aspect before, it would be much better to replenish your spare "ammo" (thermal clips) after a fight then during one, while behind cover.

But I still believe that replenishing thermal clips should still use the omnitool converting omnigel (made from items on the battlefield, including spent thermal clips) into new thermal clips, that way you do not have to worry about any warping or other heat damage to used thermal clips.

I wish I had thought of that before I did my poll.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 20 décembre 2010 - 02:21 .

[DialupToaster]

Vena_86 wrote...

Why do thermal clips stay hot forever? In the end the soldiers of the future are suddenly just as limited with their ammo supply and produce just as much trash (used thermal clips/ammo clips) as today!
Good idea, unfinished implementation. Hopefully it will be finished until ME3 hits.

Probably cheaper and uses less materials then a reusable one.and just ejecting it is most likely easier then the mass effect 1 clip melting or deforming in a drawn out heavy firefight. Though I think they should have the old system built into the guns as a backup. I wonder what lore reason they could have with that? Other then the expense?

[revengeance]

sinosleep wrote...

And I think the lore makes it pretty damned clear that not everyone and their mother has access to the kind of mods Shepard does or the lore justification would have never been written since as you said, with the right weapons and mods Shepard's gear fires indefinitely.

Alright sinno as always you need to get the last word in, again Who is to say the military would not have such mods readily available for someone on a fire team when neccessary! i think they could afford it. also Or a well funded merc group! Not to mention in most cases your in generally tight quarters in mass effect. I don't recall them being that expensive for the most part and it sure seemed like enemies had no trouble acquiring them since they were droppin them all over the place later in the game.
Again if you don't want to except that, a HYBRID system would be the best choice. There is no way they would completely abandon such a useful technology.

And please don't try state lore, sure not everyone and their mother could have the top of the line heat sinks but some could. Lore has nothing to do with this!!! in any sensbile view this choice completely flips the bird to ME lore. IN THE END it comes down to a choice made by bioware to try make the shooting aspect more interesting and tense.

Modifié par revengeance, 20 décembre 2010 - 02:29 .

[DialupToaster]

ThePatriot101 wrote...

People hate the thermal clips because they actually have to practice ammunition management and manual aiming. Despite the RPGers complaining about needing more number-crunching-esque items in the gameplay they can't keep track of how many shots they have left in their gun or how to properly aim their weapon precisely at the enemy they're trying to kill. Add to that Bioware effectively mothballed the old overheat system both gameplay- and story-wise so there's an even smaller chance of that happening for any real reason despite anti-thermal clip advocates' rants.

The ME1 overheat system was okay from a sci-fi perspective. But from a combat perspective it did cause problems. Still prefer the ME2 system. Granted, I have run out of ammo on one or two guns but only because I wasn't really worrying about ammo management (and enemies drop clips so I replenished them relatively fast).

I think I lot of people hate the clips system because they don't want real shooters and infinite ammo was their crutch to get through ME1. Now they're stuck with a clips system and there's little room to maneuver to get any semblance of the overheat system back.

Though seriously, these threads have popped up for a while. Old news. Let's just get on with ME3 (preferably WITHOUT an overheat system).

I never worried about ammo/overheating unless I was a soldier, but then I was to busy trying to headshot a heavy mech with the sniper rifle.

[DialupToaster]

Alphyn wrote...

Just give me a way to shoot at things, and I'll be happy.

I couldn't care less at all.

Most sensible thing I have heard yet.

[DialupToaster]

aeetos21 wrote...

I like the new system, makes sense. I only wish they didn't call them clips as those haven't been used since WW2 but are common day misconception.

Mag - you can reload a magazine.

Clip - you can't reload and have to fire off a full clip before reloading a fresh clip (not a good diea to go into a gunfight with two bullets in a clip).

But I guess we can just blame it on the Geth since they originally first came up with the system and likely mistook clips for mags as what most people today do.

Am I wrong at this or could you just drop the "clip" and replace it with a new one? A loss of x amount of ammo but still...

[DialupToaster]

Makaiju wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

And yet, if you have suppressive fire capability, it is easier for a squad to flank its enemies. Thermal clips allow you to put more slugs down-range faster. This is why weapons like light machine guns were invented.

Also, in real life, armor hasn't outpaced the penetration of bullets. In the Mass Effect universe, however, the opposite is true. Kinetic barriers, composite materials and ablative ceramic plating have rendered it very hard to kill the average soldier with a gun, since the more powerful you make a mass accelerator firearm, the bigger the kick it delivers right back to its owner. Offensive strength has a definite ceiling, while defensive strength really doesn't.

In other words, you need more bullets.

I can live with that but people also forget that ME1guns varied by by type and brand.  A sniper rifle might only fire 1 or 2 consecutive shots before it over heats (by default with no mods) and a pistol might fire 30 shots before that happens and an assault rifle might fire 60 shots before that happens.  Same way one rifle might over heat at 45 shots but other might at 70.  You can mood those to be more or less... but that was the fun.  You could make a simple rifleman weapon, a DMR, or a support weapon.. but it was up to you.

With the new system that variety and tactics isn't there.  If you like Assault Rifles, you want the collectors rifle.  Best in the game from the start to the end.  Period.  there is no 'support' version of the assault rifle and you can't mod the assault rifle to act like a support weapon.

I remember that the common miltary was supplied with rifles that fired only 30-40 shots before overheating and did little to no damage to any well armored adversary, plus the military can't afford mods. The alliance is broke.... all because of the Normandy.

[Praetor Knight]

randomchasegurney wrote...

Am I wrong at this or could you just drop the "clip" and replace it with a new one? A loss of x amount of ammo but still...

Close, it's not a loss of ammo, but I can see how it can get so confusing, I know I was at first when I started ME2.

Dropping an old clip and replacing it with a fresh one is only a loss of the number of shots that the old clip can withstand.

Ammo comes from a separate piece in the gun called a block in the Codex.

[sinosleep]

revengeance wrote...


Alright sinno as always you need to get the last word in, again Who is to say the military would not have such mods readily available for someone on a fire team when neccessary! i think they could afford it. also Or a well funded merc group! Not to mention in most cases your in generally tight quarters in mass effect. I don't recall them being that expensive for the most part and it sure seemed like enemies had no trouble acquiring them since they were droppin them all over the place later in the game.

Again if you don't want to except that, a HYBRID system would be the best choice. There is no way they would completely abandon such a useful technology.

And please don't try state lore, sure not everyone and their mother could have the top of the line heat sinks but some could. Lore has nothing to do with this!!! in any sensbile view this choice completely flips the bird to ME lore. IN THE END it comes down to a choice made by bioware to try make the shooting aspect more interesting and tense.

What does getting the last word in have to do with anything? And if you continue to reply to me what does that make you? How about you stick to the topic at hand instead of making **** up when you run out of relevant things to say eh? 

You seem to be flustered over the differences between lore and gameplay. These breaks between lore and gameplay happen in EVERY game on the planet. The lore will say wizards can take down entire armies on their own and that they are few and far between and yet while playing games you'll have trouble defeating squads of 10 men and every group you run into has at least one wizard. This happens because in video games gameplay will ALWAYS trump lore and if good gameplay dictactes that the player character can't just kill hundreds of folks all willy nilly and that good enemy group dynamics require at least one wizard well by god that's exactly what they are going to include.

So while obviously, if you go off of gameplay then the mods are all over the place, as we've already gone over, if that was the case why would they ever switch? They would already have the best of both worlds by having infinite ammo, and infinite supressive fire capabilities due to mods that made it so their weapons NEVER overheat. Common sense needs to come in at some point and rationalize that clearly, most people didn't have access to said mods or no one would EVER switch and their preponderance at later levels of ME 1 is simply a gameplay issue.

Honestly though at the end of the day I don't really care about what lore was or wasn't broken in order to bring heatsinks into the fold any damned way cause the fact of the matter is I NEVER liked the old system, don't want it back, and don't care for any kind of hybrid. I like my ammo systems just they way they are in practically every other shooter. Which involves reloading and picking up ammo.

Modifié par sinosleep, 20 décembre 2010 - 03:01 .

[Rahzar]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Rahzar wrote...

Here's the hybrid ME1 / ME2 ammo idea that I have in my blog (link to blog is in my sig):
Shepard initially uses the overheating piece of metal (ammo of ME1).  The overheating aspect of the old "ammo" would be exaggerated, making weapons overheat relatively quickly**.    When
the weapon overheats, it will automatically start using thermal clips. 
Thermal clips will remain in use until the weapon cools back down (when
Shepard stops firing for a few seconds).  When the weapon is cooled
down, the piece of metal will automatically be in use once again.
** The purpose of an exaggerated overheat would be to support why the switch to thermal clips was ever made.

I've read this a few times and I'm still confused. Could you elaborate a little more?

So far I picture that there are two heat sinks in use, one that is actively cooled and a second that is disposable. Is that correct?

Thanks in advance.
Edit: Oh, and I did check your blog before I posted.

Thanks for looking at my blog, did you see any ideas that stuck out to you?  I'd love to hear some feedback about my blog. 

It looks like you understand what I meant.  Here's a better explanation of my idea, just to clarify. 

One heat sink is permanent (built into the gun) and will not be disposed.   This permanent heat sink will remain in use until it overheats.  When it overheats, the weapon will switch to using a disposable heat sink (aka Thermal Clip).  If the weapon continues to fire (using thermal clips), the permanent heat sink will cool down slowly.  If the weapon stops firing for a few seconds the permanent heat sink will cool down more quickly.  Once the permanent heat sink has cooled down sufficiently, the weapon will start using it again.

Let me know what you think of the idea.

Modifié par Rahzar, 20 décembre 2010 - 03:21 .

[revengeance]

Rahzar wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Rahzar wrote...

Here's the hybrid ME1 / ME2 ammo idea that I have in my blog (link to blog is in my sig):
Shepard initially uses the overheating piece of metal (ammo of ME1).  The overheating aspect of the old "ammo" would be exaggerated, making weapons overheat relatively quickly**.    When
the weapon overheats, it will automatically start using thermal clips. 
Thermal clips will remain in use until the weapon cools back down (when
Shepard stops firing for a few seconds).  When the weapon is cooled
down, the piece of metal will automatically be in use once again.
** The purpose of an exaggerated overheat would be to support why the switch to thermal clips was ever made.

I've read this a few times and I'm still confused. Could you elaborate a little more?

So far I picture that there are two heat sinks in use, one that is actively cooled and a second that is disposable. Is that correct?

Thanks in advance.
Edit: Oh, and I did check your blog before I posted.

Thanks for looking at my blog, did you see any ideas that stuck out to you?  I'd love to hear some feedback about my blog. 

It looks like you understand what I meant.  Here's a better explanation of my idea, just to clarify. 

One heat sink is permanent (built into the gun) and will not be disposed.   This permanent heat sink will remain in use until it overheats.  When it overheats, the weapon will switch to using a disposable heat sink (aka Thermal Clip).  If the weapon continues to fire (using thermal clips), the permanent heat sink will cool down slowly.  If the weapon stops firing for a few seconds the permanent heat sink will cool down more quickly. 

Let me know what you think of the idea.

I like it man! i firmly believe a system like that would be great! I will go check your blog out, please check out my forum post about ME2's current combat system and throw some feedback in.

Modifié par revengeance, 20 décembre 2010 - 03:20 .

[Rahzar]

@revengeance

Thanks, I'm glad you agree with the idea.



Is your forum post called "Thoughts on the current Mass effect 2 combat layer system. Constructive criticism.."? I'm taking a look at it right now. Let me know if that's the right one.