284 réponses à ce sujet

[Metro El]

I don't mind them either the only problem I have is that my pistols run out of ammo quicker than my other guns, and I like using the pistols.

[revengeance]

sinosleep wrote...

revengeance wrote...


Alright sinno as always you need to get the last word in, again Who is to say the military would not have such mods readily available for someone on a fire team when neccessary! i think they could afford it. also Or a well funded merc group! Not to mention in most cases your in generally tight quarters in mass effect. I don't recall them being that expensive for the most part and it sure seemed like enemies had no trouble acquiring them since they were droppin them all over the place later in the game.

Again if you don't want to except that, a HYBRID system would be the best choice. There is no way they would completely abandon such a useful technology.

And please don't try state lore, sure not everyone and their mother could have the top of the line heat sinks but some could. Lore has nothing to do with this!!! in any sensbile view this choice completely flips the bird to ME lore. IN THE END it comes down to a choice made by bioware to try make the shooting aspect more interesting and tense.

What does getting the last word in have to do with anything? And if you continue to reply to me what does that make you? How about you stick to the topic at hand instead of making **** up when you run out of relevant things to say eh? 

You seem to be flustered over the differences between lore and gameplay. These breaks between lore and gameplay happen in EVERY game on the planet. The lore will say wizards can take down entire armies on their own and that they are few and far between and yet while playing games you'll have trouble defeating squads of 10 men and every group you run into has at least one wizard. This happens because in video games gameplay will ALWAYS trump lore and if good gameplay dictactes that the player character can't just kill hundreds of folks all willy nilly and that good enemy group dynamics require at least one wizard well by god that's exactly what they are going to include.

So while obviously, if you go off of gameplay then the mods are all over the place, as we've already gone over, if that was the case why would they ever switch? They would already have the best of both worlds by having infinite ammo, and infinite supressive fire capabilities due to mods that made it so their weapons NEVER overheat. Common sense needs to come in at some point and rationalize that clearly, most people didn't have access to said mods or no one would EVER switch and their preponderance at later levels of ME 1 is simply a gameplay issue.

Honestly though at the end of the day I don't really care about what lore was or wasn't broken in order to bring heatsinks into the fold any damned way cause the fact of the matter is I NEVER liked the old system, don't want it back, and don't care for any kind of hybrid. I like my ammo systems just they way they are in practically every other shooter. Which involves reloading and picking up ammo.

' I have not run out of relavant things to say. I do not get flustered over an internet arguement about a video game lol. Anyone reading my posts will see that I make quite good points and look at both sides with an open mind. Also in the end i realize you are a fanboy and are completely complacent with the way thing's are. So you don't need to tell me that it's pretty obvious. The thing with mass effect is it's differant from most other shooters. It is in a setting with far better technology than most games. So differant rules are possible.

To top it off in the end, i feel like i have alot more to say and contribute than you.

Modifié par revengeance, 20 décembre 2010 - 03:32 .

[revengeance]

Rahzar wrote...

@revengeance
Thanks, I'm glad you agree with the idea.

Is your forum post called "Thoughts on the current Mass effect 2 combat layer system. Constructive criticism.."? I'm taking a look at it right now. Let me know if that's the right one.

Yeah, that would be the one.

[sinosleep]

revengeance wrote...

' I have not run out of relavant things to say. I do not get flustered over an internet arguement about a video game lol. Anyone reading my posts will see that I make quite good points and look at both sides with an open mind. Also in the end i realize you are a fanboy and are completely complacent with the way thing's are. So you don't need to tell me that it's pretty obvious. The thing with mass effect is it's differant from most other shooters. It is in a setting with far better technology than most games. So differant rules are possible.

To top it off in the end, i feel like i have alot more to say and contribute than you.

Ah yes, I agree with some of the changes brought about by ME 2, and as such I am a "fan boy". Great arguement.  

Modifié par sinosleep, 20 décembre 2010 - 03:36 .

[revengeance]

[quote]sinosleep wrote...

[quote]revengeance wrote...

' I have not run out of relavant things to say. I do not get flustered over an internet arguement about a video game lol. Anyone reading my posts will see that I make quite good points and look at both sides with an open mind. Also in the end i realize you are a fanboy and are completely complacent with the way thing's are. So you don't need to tell me that it's pretty obvious. The thing with mass effect is it's differant from most other shooters. It is in a setting with far better technology than most games. So differant rules are possible.

To top it off in the end, i feel like i have alot more to say and contribute than you.

[/quote]

Ah yes, I agree with some of the changes brought about by ME 2, and as such I am a "fan boy". Great arguement.  


Thanks i thought so too.

Now let's let others decide if they agree with our views and move forward.

[Pyrate_d]

I just think the ME1 system was better.



In ME1, you had to pay attention to maximize your rate of fire. In ME2, holding down the fire button maximizes your rate of fire.



It's not a huge deal, but there it is.

[Praetor Knight]

Pyrate_d wrote...

In ME2, holding down the fire button maximizes your rate of fire.

Well the Mattock is semi-auto and I think the Phalanx is too. Then the Shuriken is sweet if you flare the trigger.

Edit: and holding the trigger charges the GPS, plus a few Heavy Weapons.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 20 décembre 2010 - 04:24 .

[Ahglock]

revengeance wrote...



Well in the old system, i could get my weapons to have no overheat with the correct mod's and sink's lol, so again laying down suppression is no problem either. also if we could not do this then why not do another solution i posted, the fact that both technologies would be used?

It's not even as if any of this arguement matter's they only changed this to try add tension in battle and make it more interesting.

Those were rare expsneive weapons/mods that as pointed out probably most people did not have and I suspect was an unintended exploit.(double stacking same mod)

But at the same time I don't think you are putting much if any more bullets down wind in the ME2 system than you could under the common/default weapons of ME1. 

As for doing this to add tension, did it work?  This thread has surprised me in that aparently there are people out there who suck more than I do at shooters and were running out of ammo so for them it probably added tension, maybe some frustration as well.  Me it did not effect my gameplay at all since I never ran out of ammo or even came close, so no tension building at all.  Heck if they stick with this system I'd support a lower ammo count if anything. 

[Pyrate_d]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Pyrate_d wrote...

In ME2, holding down the fire button maximizes your rate of fire.

Well the Mattock is semi-auto and I think the Phalanx is too. Then the Shuriken is sweet if you flare the trigger.

Edit: and holding the trigger charges the GPS, plus a few Heavy Weapons.

I never found the Mattack and Phalanx, but you seem to just be nitpicking. It's not as if spamming the trigger on a semi-automatic weapon requires any thought.

Like I said, it's not a big deal, but I liked the system more in ME1. 

[sinosleep]

Not really

[Praetor Knight]

Pyrate_d wrote...

I liked the system more in ME1. 

Borrowing from a Mythbuster, "I reject your reality and substitute my own" :innocent:

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 20 décembre 2010 - 05:03 .

[colossus50000]

vote here

http://social.biowar...36/polls/13179/

poll on which system you like better

[Jorina Leto]

sinosleep wrote...

Jorina Leto wrote...

It is unrealistic to abandon the Overheat system of ME1 and replace it with the running out of shots. It doesn't make any sense if an unused weapon doesn't cooling.

And your gameplay argument just makes Shepard look stupid, because s/he is the only person in the ME universe relying upon the enemy's heat sinks.

Not if you never found the original cooling system to be realistic in the first place. M249 gunners carry extra barrels because automatic weapons that get fired long enough to heat a barrel to the point where it needs to be swapped out usually heats the barrel to the point that it's rendered ENTIRELY useless forever.

Which is why I never thought the original cooling method made any sense and that fire and forget heatsinks do. It gets hot to the point where it becomes worthless and so you swap it with another one. When you are dealing with temperatures that would result from the energy expended to fire the shavings as fast as the weapons are supposedly firing them no amount "air cooling" or waiting is going to matter. Whatever it is that's collecting such a tremendous amount of heat should be rendered useless.

ME1 set it as working. Therefore the hybrid system is the only system that makes sense, because it adds the option to replace the overheated heat sinks, if you do not want wait for it to cool down. The ammo system, of ME2 contradicts the set lore.

[DialupToaster]

colossus50000 wrote...

vote here

http://social.biowar...36/polls/13179/

poll on which system you like better

ME2 ammo system is doing well, but with only 5 votes. This poll is fairly new then?

[Vit246]

Did you misread? ME2 ammo system has 12 votes. The hybrid has 5.



More people should vote for hybrid.

[Lotion Soronarr]

sinosleep wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Incorrect. They do if ammo is compatible. While soldiers tend ot carry lots of ammo with them, they also tend to spends lots of ammo, and a friendly supply point isn't allways near.
It's not uncommon for Special Forces to use weapons that are most common in the area they're going into - it makes it easy to find extra ammo or spare parts.

Um, No.
I was a sergeant in the US Army, I supported 3rd Group Special Forces in afghanistan. They carry combat loads and not a one of them used an AK while we were there. Scavenging weapons and ammo off of enemy combatants it's something that happens in video games, not in real life.

IS it possible that at some point some SF guy may have scavenged weaponry? Sure. Is it common place? HELL NO!

Shep is Special Forces. You're not. He's not going in there with a whole army behind him and established supply lines and logistics.

And while your story from Afghanistan is nice, I can tell you that during our war of independance here, looting of ammo from fallen enemies was standard practice.
Battle procedures addapt to conditions.

Datacakes  wrote...
In ME3 I have a "revolver" for each weapon. I fire X shots, my weapon
heats up, the thermal sink is filled to capacity, and I ...
ahem...rotate it to another thermal sink. Meanwhile my previous thermal
sink...ahem...dissipates its heat. Thus no need for ammo, err, I mean
thermal clips. There. I fixed it for ME3

That assumes thermal clips are small enough that you can carry a dozen inside a weapon...If it was so simple, why doesn't no army use a gun with rotating ammo clips?
It also implies that thermodynamics and heat transfer don't exist. As long as  a superheated thermal clip is attached to a weapon, it will heat the whole weapon..albeit slowly. the whole point of thermal clips is to get the heat away from the gun.

Jorina Leto wrote...
It is unrealistic to abandon the Overheat system of ME1 and replace it
with the running out of shots. It doesn't make any sense if an unused
weapon doesn't cooling.

And your gameplay argument just makes
Shepard look stupid, because s/he is the only person in the ME universe
relying upon the enemy's heat sinks.

Unrealistic? You do know what phsyics and realism is, right?

Unused weapons can cool down, but when the heat is mesured in a thousand degress, then it will take HOURS to cool down. Magnetic acceleration takes a lot of power = a lot of energy = a lot of heat. ME weapons would heat up a LOT faster and a LOT more then even the heaviest machineguns we have today.

[Lotion Soronarr]

revengeance wrote...
And please don't try state lore, sure not everyone and their mother could have the top of the line heat sinks but some could. Lore has nothing to do with this!!! in any sensbile view this choice completely flips the bird to ME lore. IN THE END it comes down to a choice made by bioware to try make the shooting aspect more interesting and tense.

Incorrect. Lore DOES NOT equal game mechanics.

If ME2 lore sez thermal clip are better, then they are better. retroactively. That means that ME1 combat experience is irrelevant.

A weapon that cna fire endlessly wihout ever overheating is the more imposssible, and least realistic thing ever. And Mass Effect tries to be believable, with explanations that actually make sense.

[Element_Zero]

Alrighty here we go yet again. Since this is complicated . . .

Starting off in ME 2 for the most part each gun got a pool of about 10 or so clips (by my estimation, feel free to correct.) These were all baseline no DLC guns (I'm not going to dig each name up.) (also this is provided your armor didn't give you a increase either. . . 'if' you got a bonus set)

Some looted clips gave you more some didn't so if you used up a lot of clips out of one pool and swapped to a secondary preferred weapon then used quite a lot getting to a spot for another clip (to loot) your original weapon saw little increase or none at all in it's clip pool . . Heavy weapon boxes replenished all of the thermal clip pools. I think for me it was really noticeable with the early sniper rifle or shotgun. (playing through with the Vanguard and Infiltrator classes, the Mantis sniper rifle uses 1 clip per shot for example and other weapons allowed more shots per clip.)

If you played the Solder class. . . . you started off with more thermal clips than the other classes (if memory serves me right) since you got all 4 guns - 1 Sniper, 1 AR, 1 Pistol, 1 Shotgun with again roughly a 9 - 10 clip reserve for each weapon. PLUS (again those who rolled solders correct me if I'm wrong here.) but you got the ability to 'buff' or mod your ammo I can't remember what the skill was. This resulted in you not needing as much thermal clips since some buff / ammo modifiers improved the terminal performance of your bullets for certain AI enemies defenses.

Now if you played some of the other classes this stuff changes. Sure you have other abilities, techy skills or biotics. . . but they had cool down timers. Adepts didn't get any gun modifiers. Some classes are also well suited for every enemy you meet out there, others are not. Still something to remember is not all classes started you off with the full compliment of weapons. And while some had the SMG. it wasn't super accurate until later on (when you replaced it with the one you found on a certain planet.)

Now if you changed the difficulty level. . these things get even more noticeable since the enemies have thicker shields / armor / health on the higher levels. Any difficulty level higher than NORMAL some enemies that just had health (on normal) got armor too (on Veteran +) before spawning to attacking you (depending on the map and where you were in the game) sometimes they got all three.

DLC guns change things up a little bit, and was the dev's response (I think) to some of the issues players were running into. . . Most of them have a higher DPS or you could think Damage per thermal clip value if you want to.

Another thing that changes things up a bit is when you go though the collector ship and are allowed to pick another gun to train for or (in the Infiltrator's case) are allowed to get the Widow sniper rifle. If you went with the sniper rifle for the Infiltrator you left yourself with less thermal clips to shoot overall. . . since taking training for the shotgun, or AR would have given you more thermal clips in your overall total pool.  So in that case if we train for AR's and use the Avenger? which fires 40 rounds per clip with a 400 reserve you gained 10 clips to your overall pool. Where as you lost those 10 thermal clips for the sniper (Widow) which while having a higher damage per hit only gets 10 shots and replaces the sniper rifle you were already carrying. (The Widow uses 1 thermal clip for each bullet and (I think) has a 10 shot reserve? Again if my memory is right, I think on 'hard' difficulty I went though 2-3 bullets for each collector I shot on the platforms trying to leave there ship after picking up the gun. Those were solid shots carefully aimed with the 'disruptor' mod on and sometimes using cloak modifier as well.)

Also things change as well if you play the game though more than 1 time with that character (when you start new you import your prior played ME 2 guy for the next round - now you have access to 1 extra skill set and kept your inventory of guns minus the research modifiers)

Some oddities. . .
Now couple that with how you looted them, you could find yourself rather short for your favorite gun. Take for example. . . I shoot all of my ammo for my favorite shotgun early on (progressing though the level) I loot a clip, but fail to reload my shotgun and go around looting more clips (I'm trying to replenish all the weapons pools) only to find the pool for every gun is now full, but since I forgot to reload the shotgun before I went around I now shorted myself 1 full clip. In some places it's a problem, others not so as long as you loot the dropped clips fast before they go poof. Also looted clips seemed to favor the gun you have in your hand when you loot them and didn't always replenish the other pools unless that pool (for the gun you had out) was full. And tack in the fact you can't swap any thermal clips from one pool to another. Well some folks hate the system.

Complicated? Hell ya! It took me a few times though to figure out what was going on. . and I admit I probably left out some things too!

Oh and those of you who say well, just put points in your squad mate's skill sets so you can use the AP or Shredder mods (or the like) well that is only as effective as to how you play your squad mates. You can hurt yourself overall DPS wise with some bad combination with your squad's weapons, and skill choices vs the enemy you are attacking.

Suppressive fire . . . at least in the PC platform I haven't seen that reaction with the enemy AI (at least with the ones you would think would be smart enough to get the hell outta the way when there is a storm of bullets being shot at them.) consistently. They seem more reactive to rather they saw you or I hate to say this but 'flipped' a programming trigger (think going past a certain point on the map) which makes them aware that you are even there. And I know my squad mates don't have that necessary AI smarts. . . (*grumbles* I can't tell you how many times I positioned them in front of me in cover only to watch them roll out fire a bit. Catch the attention of the enemy AI (they start shooting), roll back into cover, then suddenly roll back outta cover (obvious to the enemy fire) only to get knocked out of cover by a weapon attack and start sucking down rounds from 3 or more of the enemy AI into unconsciousness. . . never trying to get back into cover but trying to aim and shoot!) And this is the AI suppressing the other AI ! With limited medi gel this is rather frustrating!

How you employ your tactics really says rather you will or will not be successful out there and how you time your rushes and where you put your team will as well. . or rather you even really employ them at all. Bah I'm going off topic.

Anyway this is why I think folks have a tough time wrapping their mind around it. Some want the old system, others the current, or some mishmash of the two.

Complicated if you consider all of it! Ok I'm going to pass out. . .

Modifié par Element_Zero, 20 décembre 2010 - 10:46 .

[sinosleep]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Shep is Special Forces. You're not. He's not going in there with a whole army behind him and established supply lines and logistics.

And while your story from Afghanistan is nice, I can tell you that during our war of independance here, looting of ammo from fallen enemies was standard practice.

Battle procedures addapt to conditions.

I worked with those guys each and every day, they carried combat loads, and the VAST majority used M4's with a ****load of attachments. The local enemy population uses AK 47s using 7.62 ammunition which does NOT mesh well with M4's that require 5.56 ammunition.

Maybe in your country it's common place for soldiers to take the video game route, here in the states it sure as **** isn't, including special forces.

Most everything else you posted I agree with though,

It also implies that thermodynamics and heat transfer don't exist. As long as a superheated thermal clip is attached to a weapon, it will heat the whole weapon..albeit slowly. the whole point of thermal clips is to get the heat away from the gun.

Unrealistic? You do know what phsyics and realism is, right?

Unused weapons can cool down, but when the heat is mesured in a thousand degress, then it will take HOURS to cool down. Magnetic acceleration takes a lot of power = a lot of energy = a lot of heat. ME weapons would heat up a LOT faster and a LOT more then even the heaviest machineguns we have today.

Incorrect. Lore DOES NOT equal game mechanics.

If ME2 lore sez thermal clip are better, then they are better. retroactively. That means that ME1 combat experience is irrelevant.

A weapon that cna fire endlessly wihout ever overheating is the more imposssible, and least realistic thing ever. And Mass Effect tries to be believable, with explanations that actually make sense.

The original explanation never made any sense, ME 2's system is far more realistic in every way other than meshing with modded spectre gear that fires forever.

Modifié par sinosleep, 20 décembre 2010 - 02:05 .

[Severyx]

Another age-old discussion. The thing is, the lore-based reason for the thermal clips makes perfect sense, but I think the execution could have been a bit less harsh.

If the guns cooled down in any environment with an atmosphere when not being shot (similar to ME1) while still having the clip system for overheat situations, it would be lore AND player friendly. Alternatively, if Shepard started shooting in a place without an atmosphere (or other sufficient thermal transfer medium), then the ME2 shot-limit style still makes sense lore-wise and isn't a massive and confusing change to the user. As long as they know when they are able to cool down their guns or are forced to rely on thermal clips. Maybe a symbol near the current weapon on the HUD that indicates this boolean.

Modifié par Severyx, 20 décembre 2010 - 02:41 .

[Tasker]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And Mass Effect tries to be believable, with explanations that actually make sense.

*Cough*  Bikinis in space. *Cough*

[Jorina Leto]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...



Unrealistic? You do know what phsyics and realism is, right?

Unused weapons can cool down, but when the heat is mesured in a thousand degress, then it will take HOURS to cool down. Magnetic acceleration takes a lot of power = a lot of energy = a lot of heat. ME weapons would heat up a LOT faster and a LOT more then even the heaviest machineguns we have today.

Dit you read my post? Well you didn't read it right. Your mistake ist to throw real life physics into a verse, where the system of ME1 is working.

The System of ME1 is working. You cannot deny it. And from this point it's stupid to use a system where you can run out of ammo.

[Razyx]

I've not read the thread and dunno If was posted here or out there but I recall the first I heard about the thermal clip and I just thought It should work in this way:
You are spitting fire like mad with your, e.g. Vindicator, after 25 rounds or so, rifle overheated.., ok heatsink "expelled"... but holy cow!!, if I open fire in bursts.., I'll stand for longer without changing to a new heatsink clip!!!....but no
Now we look for many ammo clips at all, and not some heatsink clips, a pity.

Modifié par Razyx, 20 décembre 2010 - 03:51 .

[ScotOfClanDonald]

It's not unrealistic for heat sinks to cool down after a certain amount of time as they did in ME1. With Mass Effect technology, I'm having a hard time believing that they couldn't shunt the heat off rapidly.



The long and the short of it is that, while proponents of the ME2 system are correct that, largely, that game did provide enough ammo overall to complete the missions, it doesn't actually add much incentive to jump out of cover when most classes have recharging attack powers. With my Engineer I barely used my gun; why bother when my Incinerate recharges almost as fast as I can fire it?



So what does the clip system do? Well, it makes you hunt around after each battle to refill your bandoleer with thermal clips, for one. The time you save in battle is replaced by downtime after the battle. In ME1, it might've been frustrating dealing with an overheat, but at least you weren't bored while it was happening; you were busy covering your discrepency with powers or diving for cover.



Think about this, clip-system proponents: If a hybrid system that fits with the lore is included, what do you lose? You still get to swap out thermal clips as they overheat to continue using your sweet guns. That doesn't change. You still benefit from more rapid fire if you clip-hunt on the battlefield. The only difference is that, if you do run out of spare clips, you can still use your weapon after a brief overheat period, and between fights the ammo counter for your current clip gradually resets.



If you don't feel like this would ever happen to you, then perhaps you should think of players who aren't quite as leet, who like a patient gameplay style. Isn't Bioware's intended purpose to validate as many gameplay styles as possible?

[CARL_DF90]

Me? Personally? I always hated the cool-down system in ME1. I always did prefer the clip system in ME2.