284 réponses à ce sujet

[sp0q]

They can leave thermal clips, fine by me, but dear god give me more of them! To be honest that was the only thing which frustrated me during me2 playthroughs - 10 spare clips for your shotgun...

[desonnac00]

Does anyone remember the overheat bug? When the weapon never cooled down? Thermal clips- the best workaround for this. It doesn't really change the gameplay that much. And it is NOT a plothole- heat sink= thermal clip

Modifié par desonnac00, 14 décembre 2010 - 05:30 .

[Makaiju]

There seems to be some silly and random ideas here.

Real life military? Over heat cool down times versions clip change time? Really?

The military preaches fire control. Single or three round bursts. Not full auto. You play like that and your weapons didn't over heat in ME1. So stop being silly and trying to pull in completely unrelated 'real life' information to try and support your whims and desires.

Story wise the thermo clips don't make any sense or does make sense... doesn't matter. It's a fiction story so people's opinions are always going to taint their arguments. Game mechanics wise the clips don't feel right and it does kill tons of fun when compared to the combat of ME1. Having to find ammo clips for certain types of guns or not being able to use your favorite gun, that isn't fun to play. Even worse is the way you have to 'find' your clips. I work for Cerberus but I don't have a back back full of the clips I need for every mission? Why... because it's my opinion and why should Sheppard have tons of clips because "I" would carry them... maybe you wouldn't. Again the 'story reasons' are just goofy because it's a work of fiction.

Here is what I think should be brought up for the devs to notice. I keep watching Bioware guys on G4 talking about how they want to get rid of the 'dice rolling' feel of combat but it doesn't translate that way to may people. Seen by how over 30 people in my friends list alone played ME2 and immediately went back to play ME1 because they enjoyed it better. If I wanted to play COD or MW I would. I play a sci fi game for the Sci just as much as the Fi. So trying to fix the 'dice feel' of combat by just making it more like games we all ready play, doesn't feel right. Not to mention I really missed modifying my weapons to meet 'my' style of play when playing ME2.

So Devs... for everyone who seems to like the new ME2 clip systems, there is someone who doesn't like it. So please consider reviewing this as a possible change in ME3. That way we have a 3rd kind of weapon system we can debate and complain about.

Modifié par Makaiju, 14 décembre 2010 - 05:35 .

[JayhartRIC]

Easy explanation



1. Kinetic barriers get stronger, making ME1 weapons completely ineffective.

2. New weapons are made, much more firepower per shot, but produce way more heat.

3. Disposable heat sinks are used to avoid being overrun while your weapons cool down.

[Alphyn]

Just give me a way to shoot at things, and I'll be happy.



I couldn't care less at all.

[Schneidend]

Makaiju wrote...

There seems to be some silly and random ideas here.

Real life military? Over heat cool down times versions clip change time? Really?

The military preaches fire control. Single or three round bursts. Not full auto. You play like that and your weapons didn't over heat in ME1. So stop being silly and trying to pull in completely unrelated 'real life' information to try and support your whims and desires.

And yet, if you have suppressive fire capability, it is easier for a squad to flank its enemies. Thermal clips allow you to put more slugs down-range faster. This is why weapons like light machine guns were invented.

Also, in real life, armor hasn't outpaced the penetration of bullets. In the Mass Effect universe, however, the opposite is true. Kinetic barriers, composite materials and ablative ceramic plating have rendered it very hard to kill the average soldier with a gun, since the more powerful you make a mass accelerator firearm, the bigger the kick it delivers right back to its owner. Offensive strength has a definite ceiling, while defensive strength really doesn't.

In other words, you need more bullets.

Modifié par Schneidend, 14 décembre 2010 - 05:40 .

[Praetor Knight]

Makaiju wrote...

So Devs... for everyone who seems to like the new ME2 clip systems, there is someone who doesn't like it. So please consider reviewing this as a possible change in ME3. That way we have a 3rd kind of weapon system we can debate and complain about.

So what about at least replenishing the spare "ammo" counter (with health and shields) while in cover?

It fits with how omnitools worked in ME.

[Nerevar-as]

JayhartRIC wrote...



Easy explanation



1. Kinetic barriers get stronger, making ME1 weapons completely ineffective.

2. New weapons are made, much more firepower per shot, but produce way more heat.

3. Disposable heat sinks are used to avoid being overrun while your weapons cool down.

That´s what I think too.

It´s also we lost the fast firing skills we had for AR and pistols in ME1. Without them, shooting rate and cooldown time would be far worse than thermal clips until at least midgame. Add to that we are the only idiots in the battlefield who never remembers to bring along enough clips...

[shumworld]

I love the Thermal Clip system. Are people still hating on it?

[kyrieee]

Christ, get over it already. It's a design decision and I'm glad they put gameplay ahead of lore continuity, at least when it's such a minor minor thing.

[Xerxes52]

They just need to improve the thermal clip system imo.



1. More total "ammo" per weapon (i.e. instead of 10 rounds for a sniper, make it 20-35).



2. More "ammo" per thermal clip collected (instead of collecting 8-9 clips to completely refill a sniper for example, make it 2-3).



3. Suit should be able to help manage weapon overheating (i.e. when you holster an "empty" weapon, the suit floods the weapon with coolant, refilling its "ammo" in 10-15 seconds, with suit research improving this "cooling time").

[aeetos21]

I like the new system, makes sense. I only wish they didn't call them clips as those haven't been used since WW2 but are common day misconception.



Mag - you can reload a magazine.



Clip - you can't reload and have to fire off a full clip before reloading a fresh clip (not a good diea to go into a gunfight with two bullets in a clip).



But I guess we can just blame it on the Geth since they originally first came up with the system and likely mistook clips for mags as what most people today do.

[Nitram141]

I have never run out of ammo in ME2. Use the Revenant.

[Makaiju]

Schneidend wrote...

And yet, if you have suppressive fire capability, it is easier for a squad to flank its enemies. Thermal clips allow you to put more slugs down-range faster. This is why weapons like light machine guns were invented.

Also, in real life, armor hasn't outpaced the penetration of bullets. In the Mass Effect universe, however, the opposite is true. Kinetic barriers, composite materials and ablative ceramic plating have rendered it very hard to kill the average soldier with a gun, since the more powerful you make a mass accelerator firearm, the bigger the kick it delivers right back to its owner. Offensive strength has a definite ceiling, while defensive strength really doesn't.

In other words, you need more bullets.

I can live with that but people also forget that ME1guns varied by by type and brand.  A sniper rifle might only fire 1 or 2 consecutive shots before it over heats (by default with no mods) and a pistol might fire 30 shots before that happens and an assault rifle might fire 60 shots before that happens.  Same way one rifle might over heat at 45 shots but other might at 70.  You can mood those to be more or less... but that was the fun.  You could make a simple rifleman weapon, a DMR, or a support weapon.. but it was up to you.

With the new system that variety and tactics isn't there.  If you like Assault Rifles, you want the collectors rifle.  Best in the game from the start to the end.  Period.  there is no 'support' version of the assault rifle and you can't mod the assault rifle to act like a support weapon.

[Klimy]

If you get a gun with unlimited ammo, how can you say no to it? If you used it for several years, can you go back to limited ammo?
Im fine with ammo as long as we get more of it.

Modifié par Klimy, 14 décembre 2010 - 08:16 .

[Makaiju]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

So what about at least replenishing the spare "ammo" counter (with health and shields) while in cover?

It fits with how omnitools worked in ME.

That could work.  I'm not really sure I have the best answer right now.  I think that if the syncs were either replaced with or combined with an "active" cool down versus a "passive" cool down then that would be the right direction to follow or examine.  I mean... the gun shoots, over heats, and slowly cools off.  However you are about to be charged by a krogan merc... you need to shot 'now'.  Hit a button to 'force vent' the heat out and now you can shoot again.  Does that use up a mag/clip?  maybe.

All I know is that I want the gun mods back and if there are heat syncs in the game, they have better be as easy as water to get our hands on.  I mean this isn't that Post Nuke War game where you wander the Mojave looking for left over ammo from a fallen society.

I love Bioware games and ME3 will be my 'one' big purchase of next years games.  So I'll get Dragon Age II (That's next year, right?), and Gears of War 3, and several others.. but it's ME3 that will be the 1 game to get my $120 pre-order (or whatever it really is) for the shinny tin box with waste of time art books that I never read and whatever else they shove in the box to be special.  No matter what they do.  I would have done it if the combat in ME2 was 100% like ME1.  I would do it if ME3 combat was confirmed to be 100% like ME2.  I would do it if ME3 is confirmed to be different.  This purchase... this one game isn't all that I'm talking about.

Many decadees from now when I'm old, retired, and still playing games... what will I be playing?  While as a child I played Bioware games like Baulder's  Gate.  I loved the good and bad of that ear of Bioware games that I kept playing Bioware games into my adult life.  I Loved KOTR, I loved Jade Empire but it's one flaw.... it's attempt to be a fighting game during combat instead of sticking to the 'dice rolling' combat of KOTR.  I loved ME1 and how it tried to mix a more real time feel to the combat but it still was closely rooted in the RPG world of modifications and stats increases.

ME2 was... good... I loved it... but... it was loved because of carry over love from of ME1.  If the combat of ME2 was introduce in a brand new IP, instead of ME, I would have said 'cool but I'd rather play MW2'.  So yeah... the game mechanics and the game mythos have to feel natural to each other (like Jade Empire did) AND the mechanics have to be work (like Jade Empire didn't) or the 'something' that makes Bioware games special is somewhat lessened.

Modifié par Makaiju, 14 décembre 2010 - 08:19 .

[ThePatriot101]

Makaiju wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

And yet, if you have suppressive fire capability, it is easier for a squad to flank its enemies. Thermal clips allow you to put more slugs down-range faster. This is why weapons like light machine guns were invented.

Also, in real life, armor hasn't outpaced the penetration of bullets. In the Mass Effect universe, however, the opposite is true. Kinetic barriers, composite materials and ablative ceramic plating have rendered it very hard to kill the average soldier with a gun, since the more powerful you make a mass accelerator firearm, the bigger the kick it delivers right back to its owner. Offensive strength has a definite ceiling, while defensive strength really doesn't.

In other words, you need more bullets.

I can live with that but people also forget that ME1guns varied by by type and brand.  A sniper rifle might only fire 1 or 2 consecutive shots before it over heats (by default with no mods) and a pistol might fire 30 shots before that happens and an assault rifle might fire 60 shots before that happens.  Same way one rifle might over heat at 45 shots but other might at 70.  You can mood those to be more or less... but that was the fun.  You could make a simple rifleman weapon, a DMR, or a support weapon.. but it was up to you.

With the new system that variety and tactics isn't there.  If you like Assault Rifles, you want the collectors rifle.  Best in the game from the start to the end.  Period.  there is no 'support' version of the assault rifle and you can't mod the assault rifle to act like a support weapon.

I have the Collectors' AR and I don't consider it the best weapon.  None of the individual weapons is the best.  I put the M-12 only slightly above all simply because it has higher stability and therefore longer range and it can be used by every class.  But it still has a relatively small clip size and a reduced rounds per minute.  I've recently turned to using the M-9 more on one of my playthroughs because I'd use a SR for long-range, then shower an enemy up close with SMG rounds.  If anything the ME1 weapons had much less variety.  You picked between two basic types of ARs, SGs, HPs, and SRs and every variant progressing up has slightly different stats.  Ultimately there is little to distinguish them and I did not really feel any different using an VII model AR versus an X model.  The only real differences I saw was among the SRs and SGs in terms of overheat but it got ridiculous when I was sniping people with the SG.  But the weapons really didn't give off the impression that one made by Kassa felt different than one made by Ariake even if you added the mods or different ammunition (because ultimately they feel the same when compared to each othe regardless of the upgrades).

The clip system gives ya more room for tactics because you don't have the 2.3 seconds of cooldown on one weapon or the 4.7 seconds on another.  Plus the weapons FEEL different like with the M-8's relative spread of shots versus the M-15's three-shot burst or the M-96's semi-auto fire.  And you can mod it with upgrades or different ammo effects. 

[Makaiju]

ThePatriot101 wrote...

The clip system gives ya more room for tactics because you don't have the 2.3 seconds of cooldown on one weapon or the 4.7 seconds on another.  Plus the weapons FEEL different like with the M-8's relative spread of shots versus the M-15's three-shot burst or the M-96's semi-auto fire.  And you can mod it with upgrades or different ammo effects. 

I can kind of see what you are saying but only in terms of apples versus oranges.  sure the Collector rifle isn't the same as an SMG but that's because one is an assault rifle and one is a sub machine gun.

Still I'm not saying ME1 guns were perfect.  I'm just saying the heat sync system isn't perfect either.  I'm getting ready to do my third run through of ME 2 and in both of my first runs I used nothing but a SMG and a sniper rifle.  Why?  It's like an earlier poster said... with all guns shooting basically the same ammo, you only have one strategy to tear through shields/barriers... more bullets.  None of the weapons I found did that better then the SMG.  For distance killing... who doesn't like a little sniper action to the face... well, not to your own face.. but to your opponents face.

It was only really the armor that gave any bonus or perk to wearing armor from a specific company.  I think the weapons should have done more.... so why wasn't a better option in ME2 to have Aegis guns naturally +20 against clankers and Geth Armory weapons +20 against fleshy perps?

I would say that it's more like the ME1 system just needed some minor tweaks and instead Bioware change the entire system.

[schneeland]

Well, the only problem I have with thermal clips is that they were not ammo-like enough for me. I can understand why the devs decided to change the ME 1 system (the unlimited ammo thing was really a bit weird), I felt like there should have been different clips for the different classes of weapons (combined with a higher number of maximum rounds for each weapon)

On the other hand that could really make an Infiltrator's/Assasin's life a bit unpleasant.

[martin_bgi]

having played fps/tps games for years, i found the thermal clip system vastly superior than the overheat system. i have never run out of ammo in ME2 and after some practice was able to fire even low-tier weapons in ME1 without overheating. it's all about management - ammo management in ME2 (lower consumption through headshots and use of abilities) and heat management in ME1 (like many said before, burst shooting or mods). i think that the best way to tweak this mechanic would be to include both systems - either as a setting for each weapon so that player may be able to choose (both systems have their cons - clips are limited and weapons cool down slowly), or as a hybrid system (where thermal clips cool down after longer periods of time and have to bo ejected after overheating OR a dual-clip system, where one clip is in use while other is being slowly cooled - change would be almost instant and with proper management there wouldn't be a need to use more than a pair, but if both overheat they have to be replaced).



or just bring back and expand weapon modding so that (almost) everybody would be pleased, being able to adjust weapons the way they like them.

[FRSHPRNFILL]

I actually like the thermal clip system vs. overheating. I rarely find myself out of ammo on all of my weapons.

[Praetor Knight]

Makaiju wrote...

That could work.  I'm not really sure I have the best answer right now.  I think that if the syncs were either replaced with or combined with an "active" cool down versus a "passive" cool down then that would be the right direction to follow or examine.  I mean... the gun shoots, over heats, and slowly cools off.  However you are about to be charged by a krogan merc... you need to shot 'now'.  Hit a button to 'force vent' the heat out and now you can shoot again.  Does that use up a mag/clip?  maybe.

Well I mentioned this in another thread, that from ME to ME2, Shield Boost and First Aid became automatic.
All that had to be done was was wait behind cover and you're good to go.

What I figured is why not have spare "ammo" also automatic?

This way it is an evolution of eject-able thermal clips, that lets you fire without having to go pick up more off the ground, and fits with the game's lore

the omnitool is what will make more thermal clips from omnigel.

Also no need to worry about sabotage and no overheat bug to carry over to ME3 that was found in ME.

Then like you said, gun mods as a bonus in ME3 would be awesome.

[Skilled Seeker]

TekFanX wrote...

Actually I've got no problem with the game-mechanic, actually I like it.

The only thing I dislike about it is the lore-factor.
ME1 had a reason as for why weapons had infinite ammo with cooldown and then, in ME2 it's like it never happened.

Actually, the game could have pretended, that the whole thing came up in the two years between both games, but no: In the first mission, Shepard takes the first weapon in two years and recognizes that something is missing.
No interrupt like:
Shepard:"Hey, the gun doesn't shoot?! What's wrong with it?"
Miranda:"You'll need a thermal clip. Newest tech, more effective and far more flexible."

It doesn't need explaining, its pretty obvious. Thermal clips are just mini ejectable versions of the heatskins that are in ME1.

The lore breaking use is in Jacob's loyalty mission where the stranded survivors of 10 years have the modern thermal clip system as well as mechs.

[this isnt my name]

Hate the new system, now I snipe, and if I run out of ammo I have to go to the guys corpe to reload, defeating the purpose of sniping.

[Skilled Seeker]

Makaiju wrote...
With the new system that variety and tactics isn't there.  If you like Assault Rifles, you want the collectors rifle.  Best in the game from the start to the end.  Period.  there is no 'support' version of the assault rifle and you can't mod the assault rifle to act like a support weapon.

Not true. The collector's rifle doesn't deal the most damage, the Revenant does yet the Revenant has greater recoil. The Geth rifle deals greater damage against shields and is just as accurate but deals less damage against armour. There is no ultimate weapon, every weapon in ME2 is unique with its own strengths and weaknesses. This isn't the case with ME1 were the Spectre gear was the best at everything.