284 réponses à ce sujet

[Skilled Seeker]

this isnt my name wrote...

Hate the new system, now I snipe, and if I run out of ammo I have to go to the guys corpe to reload, defeating the purpose of sniping.

Ow poor baby can't camp

[Ahglock]

lumen11 wrote...

For the record: I'm not opposed.
I agree that it doesn't make much sense in story terms, but it's a vast improvement over ME1 in gameplay terms, which is much more important in this case.

Can anyone actually say it is better or worse though in itself.  ME2 has better 3rd person shooter elements in every conceivable way which taints any viewpoint on this.  Unless you could play a modded ME2 with ME1  style weapons and vice versa I call shenanigans on any gameplay superiority claims. 

As for what militaries would do if it was the real world.  They'd normally go with limitless ammo to save money for bigger projects unless someone bribed them to go with a more expensive solution.  It is like why militaries usually get the same weapon for virtually all the troops.  It is not because it is the best weapon but because of bribes and savings via standardized ammo costs letting you buy in bulk.  In practice ME1 guns even the bare bones models would put more lead down wind per minute than ME2 guns would except for sniper rifles which were all kind of like the widow but not nearly as deadly.  Add in they can sustain fire for prolonged fights since there ammo count is in the thousands and it is a no brainer. 

I don't know why they put so little into trying to explain the change in ME2, if it had been better explained it would have satisifed the lore rpg people.  Though I think they'd have to oncrease your ammo counts because you'd pick up a lot less in the field, like none from collectors etc. 

[Atmosfear3]

I could have sworn this topic has been discussed to death but here we go again!



Clips > heat management



Not only from a more realistic standpoint but also because clips gives the game a certain pacing. You can't just squeeze your trigger till the enemy is dead and that my friends is good gameplay.

[Sidac]

Maybe they dont like it because they cant tape their mouse button down and run around. That and the mako just sucked the life out of ME1 for me...but thats jut me.

[Bullets McDeath]

I'm a pretty big lore nerd myself, but this is one instance where gameplay trumps the story. I missed unlimited ammo at first, but as Atmosfear points out, clips give the game a certain pacing in ME2 and that is part of the fun. Also, in ME1, as a Soldier I ran around with an entire arsenal on my back but only ever used the AR because I spent my points maxing it out and since I never ran out of bullets, why the hell would I use anything else. In ME2, I actually used all the weapons at my disposal as different opportunities presented themselves in combat. Ah, there's nothing like shotgunning someone at point-blank range during an Adrenaline Rush. Although, that has as much to do with making all classes proficient in their available weapons at the start instead of having to spend points on them.

EDIT: I do think it would make more sense if you could still fire without clips, but with a cooldown penalty so severe as to discourage it strategically. Even if you accept the thermal clip retcon, it doesn't make sense that weapons stay hot FOREVER.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 15 décembre 2010 - 02:03 .

[Destructo-Bot]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Hate the new system, now I snipe, and if I run out of ammo I have to go to the guys corpe to reload, defeating the purpose of sniping.

Ow poor baby can't camp

Why are you being a dick to that guy? You do realize that Mass Effect has a SNIPER class correct? The Infiltrator class is going to appeal to the people that like to hang back, and for those that like to charge forward we have Vanguards. Both styles are encouraged, neither is wrong, and he has a point that has been made by others:

Why would an Infiltrator that focuses on sniping carry only as many heat sinks for his sniper rifle as the soldier which relies more on assualt rifles? It didn't make any kind of sense at all. Why would a Vanguard that focuses on close combat with the shotgun as his primary carry the same number of rounds for his shotgun as the soldier which carries all weapons? Fortunately for the Vanguard their style takes them nearer the heatsinks, whereas the sniper's does not.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 15 décembre 2010 - 03:46 .

[MassEffect762]

The change bothered me initially. (Why? what for I asked myself)

Now I'd settle for some type of hybrid system.

This "hybrid" system can come in two forms.

The first being some weapons require thermals and other self cool(balance would be desireable)

The second would be all weapons(not heavy) cool themselves gradually with thermals speeding things up.

What would really grind my gears is having to look down for thermal clips(so uncessary and lame imo), I'd rather they just auto-loot once you take down an enemy.

My 00.2

Modifié par MassEffect762, 15 décembre 2010 - 03:58 .

[lazuli]

Destructo-Bot wrote...
Why are you being a dick to that guy? You do realize that Mass Effect has a SNIPER class correct? The Infiltrator class is going to appeal to the people that like to hang back, and for those that like to charge forward we have Vanguards. Both styles are encouraged, neither is wrong, and he has a point that has been made by others:

Why would an Infiltrator that focuses on sniping carry only as many heat sinks for his sniper rifle as the soldier which relies more on assualt rifles? It didn't make any kind of sense at all. Why would a Vanguard that focuses on close combat with the shotgun as his primary carry the same number of rounds for his shotgun as the soldier which carries all weapons? Fortunately for the Vanguard their style takes them nearer the heatsinks, whereas the sniper's does not.

You seem to have a narrow definition of the capabilities of the classes you're discussing.  If it's a typical "hang in the back" sniper, Soldiers will do that job better than Infiltrators.  Infiltrators shine when they can use Tactical Cloak to get in the best positions possible.  They have the handy auto time dilation with sniper rifles, but that doesn't mean they should be limited to them.

I think the developers want you to shake up your style of play.  They want you to use a variety of powers, weapons, and squadmates.  I don't care if the amount of thermal clips a "sniper" carries doesn't make sense from a lore perspective.  From a gameplay perspective, though, it's a way for Bioware to encourage players to explore all of the options available to them, leading to dynamic and interesting combat.

[Element_Zero]

Ugh well after reading the various postings in this topic I guess I'm of the opinion.

Yea the shotty's didn't seem to have enough ammo. I went though the first time with a Vanguard (yea transported her over from ME 1 and I tried the veteran mode.) Everything was going well until I ran outta of ammo with the guns and ended up using them as clubs. . In fact I was expecting the shotty to break with all the clubbing I was doing with it though out that time though the game. It was a constant, oh crap I'm outta ammo. . . 'Pull' whap, whap, whap, Need . . . a . . . knife . . . whap, whap. Oh great he dropped a clip. . Bam bam, Damit I'm outta ammo again?

That was the type of thing on the first round I went though on the game. I kept wondering where the hell is my fracken knife!

I guess the problem I have is if my squad mates had the same amount of ammo I carried, We would be constantly overrun and stomped into dust (especially when the heavy mechs came into play even on the 'normal' difficulty levels.) Since I couldn't rely on having a steady supply ammo for my heavy weapon I just didn't bother to use it (unless the crap really blew the blades off of the fan, actually it became a ungainly large useless piece of crap for most of the game. For me anyway.)

So I would end up letting my squad do most of the killing since their ammo supply was unlimited. Course with my squad mates not using cover properly and I would end up watching them and the enemy as well as managing my own skills. . . Which was annoying, since a missile strike for example would knock them from cover and they would just stand there letting the enemy mow them down into pixelly unconsciousness. GRRR! And sometimes they would get timid or something and not take cover. . . (not sure if I was just blocking their path and thus screwing up their AI or what was going on there.)

In fact that was my gripe about the AI, it seemed like they had little to no fear. . you fire a few shots their way and they wouldn't dive for cover at all . . . (rather it be the enemy AI firing on crew mates or you just trying to suppress the enemy AI!) they just seemed to go on this cycle of shoot a little bit then take cover and repeat. Sure they took cover when they first saw you, and sure some of them should be cannon fodder (on lower levels I would expect them to be a bit slower and dumber). . . you know (droids and mechs wouldn't care about pixel oblivion). Course suppressing the enemy was a dicey problem too since you didn't have enough ammo to really do it effectively. But getting back to the slower and dumber aspect I wasn't expecting them to get higher pt shields, armor, health on upper difficulty levels with a bit more speed. It only made the misery of needing more thermal clips more pronounced. Well that and me wondering where the frack is a knife when I need one! (And NO I DON'T NEED SOME OBSCURELY HUGE SWORD WITH FLAMES er whatever. Egads the foreign gamers have ran that one into the ground.)

Anyway I guess what I'm saying is the needle shooter AR's and other guns left me feeling a bit unsafe or feeling like I was killing elephants with spitballs and still running out of spit all the time. The pixelly size of the dam things wasn't as much of a issue as more their effectiveness or lack thereof. In fact what attracts me to these games is the animations / acting both in and out of combat than some huge pixelated weapon.

Ok I'm getting off topic I guess . . .

*grunt* Ugh needs more thermal clips devs!

There simply put. . .

Oh and. . . armor for my crew mates - at least while their in battle!

*whispers* Oh btw I have all these little pockets on my armor. . . *peers in wonderment at Miranda* Jeebus just where in the frack dose she keep her unlimited supply of thermal clips? Huh?

Modifié par Element_Zero, 15 décembre 2010 - 06:44 .

[Destructo-Bot]

Nobody should attempt to tell others how to enjoy their game. Devs or otherwise. He made a valid point; snipers have an astonishingly low ammo reserve for their primary. Secondly that the low reserve is impacting his enjoyment for his style of game play.

Then someone decided to be a jackass to him. My only reason for posting was that I'd prefer to see civility on the forum, and if someone is being a condescending ****** for no reason, then I'm going to call them on it.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 15 décembre 2010 - 06:45 .

[Iakus]

I personally don't care either way, gameplay-wise. Clips or overheat or a mix of the two. Just tell me how to fight and I'll do it. I just think thermal clips were fit into the lore very awkwardly. A puzzle piece banged in with a hammer to make it fit. So I just try not to think about it.

[casedawgz]

I really can't even fathom being low on ammo in ME2. Even on Insanity, when enemies take downright stupid amounts of punishment, I'm still rolling in thermal clips for all your guns. It's not telling someone how to play the game to tell them if they snipe that much, they're going to run out of ammo. The game's parameters are what they are, and playing SOLELY from way back in cover sniping is not a viable way to play within those parameters.

[TUHD]

/facepalm

If you run constantly out of ammo for all weapons, you're doing something totally wrong. Since at the start of your mission, your ammo is automatically refilled and sometimes during missions.

Snipers need headshots (bodyshots are OK too as long as your rifle is powerfull enough and there aren't too much barriers etc on the person whom you're shooting). Also, POWERS EXIST FOR A REASON. Overload & Disruptor Ammo > shields&mechs, fire-based powers&warp > armor & organics. Other powers > hostiles without shields and armor. (There are a few powers that can damage both shields, armor and unprotected. I'll leave it up to you to find all)

When I am playing at Hard or more difficult, I *sometimes* run out of ammo for the sniping weapon, I *often* run out of ammo for the Assault Rifle (if I've got it, it is my primary weapon), I rarely run out of ammo for the shotgun, I run about never out of ammo for the pistol and I keep such tabs on my heavy weaps, that I've got a full tab of the heavy weapons during 80-90% of the game.

Why? Use squadmates wisely. Albeit they pretty often will use powers on their own, you'll often find their powers are useable. Depending on the party, you can wreck even an heavy mech pretty quick.

[Mikenator700]

I don't understand why everyone thinks ME1's system was so bad. Except for sniper rifles I almost never overheated because I wasn't spraying and praying all the time. If anything I wanted ammo clips for the projectiles. I'd have to 'reload' 2 maybe 3 times the entire game.

And then ME2 came out with the thermal clip system. I'm not saying I have a problem with it, but it's just too familiar for me. I am 90% FPS's; when I realized we have to reload now, after thoroughly reading the lore that we don't, I was really dissapointed that Bioware stooped down to accomidate FPS casuals such as myself. But I eventuallt adapted to it, even thought it doesn't make sense. I still kick butt with either system.

[TUHD]

Mikenator700 wrote...

I don't understand why everyone thinks ME1's system was so bad. Except for sniper rifles I almost never overheated because I wasn't spraying and praying all the time. If anything I wanted ammo clips for the projectiles. I'd have to 'reload' 2 maybe 3 times the entire game.
And then ME2 came out with the thermal clip system. I'm not saying I have a problem with it, but it's just too familiar for me. I am 90% FPS's; when I realized we have to reload now, after thoroughly reading the lore that we don't, I was really dissapointed that Bioware stooped down to accomidate FPS casuals such as myself. But I eventuallt adapted to it, even thought it doesn't make sense. I still kick butt with either system.

Heh. Few funny comments ingame at that. Also when it comes to hacking. Shephard: 'Where is the time that a strap of omnigel fixed and opened everything?' Liara: 'That is a security upgrade much people didn't like.' (Referring to the fact you can't use omnigel in ME2 anymore)
Personally, I like it better this way. True enough, when you were level 60 in ME1 and a Spectre and had upgraded your abilities for your weapon of choice, the need to 'reload' was about zilch. Even with an assault rifle. Hell, even sniper rifles barely needed to reload then :s

[Bourne Endeavor]

Primarily because it prevented me from using my favorite weapons more exclusive and instead forced a sidearm to be in constant rotation. Furthermore, hustling around searching for ammo can get monotonous. Granted, so can overheating. I do vastly prefer the damage structure, as in ME Snipe Rifles were next to useless since headshots meant nothing.

Regardless, it swapped a mildly flawed, yet innovated system for a rehashed and overused cliched one. Admittedly, I am being nitpicky because I do not hate the system in any capacity. I do agree it was introduced awkwardly.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 15 décembre 2010 - 08:35 .

[Lumikki]

MassEffect762 wrote...

What would really grind my gears is having to look down for thermal clips(so uncessary and lame imo), I'd rather they just auto-loot once you take down an enemy.

But it does force you out of safe cover positions. If you would not need to run for clip, you could stay in same safe spot forever. So, it's tactical risk what you need to consider in you combats.

[ifander]

First, gameplay wise, heatsinks trump overheating peashooters, at least in my book. The heatsink system gives players the flexibility to cooldown at any time, which can be a life-saver at times. And with the way the levels are built in ME2, you have to advance or the enemies just keep on coming. Infinite ammo in such scenarios means infinite combat, it doesn't encourage switching positions. Switching to infinite ammo would affect more than just the weapons themselves.

Second, most guns in ME1 were weak, to compensate for the infinite ammo. Introducing infinite ammo into ME2 would make most guns very overpowered. They would have to be rebalanced, again. And to be honest, being able to spam ammo endlessly is boring as hell, something Bioware agrees with. Which is why they scrapped the infinite ammo bs if I remember correctly. 

Third, heat sinks encourage power usage. I know I use active powers much more often now than I did in ME1.

In my opinion the system should be left as-is. A hybrid system would make it harder to build fun, balanced maps because it makes it difficult for the developers to anticipate player behavior. Also, a hybrid would be contradictory with itself, no matter how you explain it. The way I see it, what's done is done. However, being a realist, I know some people will never be satisfied, so the solution would probably be this:

Implement cooldown of heat sinks, but leave the heat sinks in the game. If you want to reload, go ahead. If you want to wait and get blasted in the face by that Krogan who's flanking you, you can do that too. Just no automatic replenishing of heat sinks, that would make even less sense. 

I'll just hope BW leaves things well enough alone.

Modifié par ifander, 15 décembre 2010 - 10:49 .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

I have no problem with the heat sinks gameplay wise as really they are just ammo given a different name, the real problem with the heat sinks is lore wise. First I assume a gameplay design descision was made to allow guns to have infinite ammo and then it was upto the writers to find some half arsed way to explain why the guns in Mass Effect seem to have an endless supply of ammo, then when it came to designing Mass Effect 2 the devs realised that the infinite ammo system from a gameplay point of view kind of sucks and they wanted an ammo system, the problem here is that in the first game the lore already states that each weapon has a huge supply of ammo so then it was upto the writers to explain why the guns now need ammo but still stay true to the lore from the first game and thus heat sinks were made, as if the lore from the first game wasnt silly enough.

[TheKillerAngel]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

I have no problem with the heat sinks gameplay wise as really they are just ammo given a different name, the real problem with the heat sinks is lore wise. First I assume a gameplay design descision was made to allow guns to have infinite ammo and then it was upto the writers to find some half arsed way to explain why the guns in Mass Effect seem to have an endless supply of ammo, then when it came to designing Mass Effect 2 the devs realised that the infinite ammo system from a gameplay point of view kind of sucks and they wanted an ammo system, the problem here is that in the first game the lore already states that each weapon has a huge supply of ammo so then it was upto the writers to explain why the guns now need ammo but still stay true to the lore from the first game and thus heat sinks were made, as if the lore from the first game wasnt silly enough.

It's not ammo. The guns have the same amount of ammo. It's the heat the guns generate that is being discarded. When I'm done with exams I could draw a diagram to illustrate how this sytem works.

Modifié par TheKillerAngel, 15 décembre 2010 - 11:34 .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

From a gameplay point of view yes it is, gameplay wise it is no different to changing a clip in COD.



But one thing that gets to me is who is designing these terribly inefficient weapons that overheat to the point that they cant be fired after only a few shots? Surely in the future they could design a weapon with a more efficient cooling system or a weapon that generates less heat.

[martin_bgi]

TheKillerAngel wrote...
It's not ammo. The guns have the same amount of ammo. It's the heat the guns generate that is being discarded. When I'm done with exams I could draw a diagram to illustrate how this sytem works.

while lore-wise it's a system that allows limited amount of shots while using one thermal clip, gameplay-wise it means that we can't fire infinite number of shots with cooldowns between, so that really easily translates into "ammo" as in number of shots we can fire with specific amount of heat sinks ("ammo magazines"). mechanic is the same (and it's good), only names and explanation differ.

[JoshPet12]

I don't really mind either system. My personal theory is that all ME weapons had a  "Thermal Clip," but in ME1 and previous they used a fixed heat sink with a cooling system to vent the heat. My theory about the ejectable heatsinks is that sabotage modules were becoming prevelant in enemy omni-tools (I see sabotage as an attack that overheats the weapon as well as a viral attack on the weapons computer that prevents it from engaging the heat venting process.) So the R and D departments developed the ejectable heat sink to reduce the effectiveness of the sabotage modules(since you could just eject the current heat sink.)

As I played BDtS, I kept on being hit with sabotage multiple times by the batarian engineers and, especially as a soldier, I kept wishing there was some way to manually dump the heat. I know I could use my squads abilities, but sometimes in the heat of battle I completely forget about my squad.

[M8DMAN]

Alex109222 wrote...

i don't give a damn either way ammo is ammo you pick it up and fire

During ME2's development  Bioware went on and on about how ME2 wouldn't have an ammo system.

Then they added one anyway but instead of calling it ammo they called it thermal clips.

Modifié par M8DMAN, 15 décembre 2010 - 01:43 .