344 réponses à ce sujet

[adam_grif]

ME 2 had a plot an actual, believable, working plot.

Hahaha, no.



ME2 is the game where you recruit a team of people to go on a suicide mission without discussing what you're actually going to do when you find a way through the Omega 4 relay. Although throughout most of the game you're under the impression that the Collector are an entire civilization, Shepard's "Plan" consists of... directly attacking them head-on. Shepard didn't even bother bringing any nukes with him, presumably because Jack used the last one for her petty revenge.



When you get through, by pure coincidence, the Collectors have exactly one ship, you have exactly the right defenses and equipment to handle the problems you face when you get there, all of the collectors exist on a single solitary space-station, and can't take on 12 soldiers in a fight. Then, you fight your way to the core where a giant human slushee machine is building a giant human reaper out of the slushee (lol...), which you kill by using the weapons you have on you (LOL). Then, there just happens to be a magical overload switch that kills everyone on the base / blows the base up.



Mass Effect 2's overarching plot was abysmal. The only saving grace was the excellent recruitment and loyalty mission, but they are totally unrelated to the main plot.

[FlintlockJazz]

Darth_Ultima wrote...

They completely removed the Mako and the inventory system as well as overhauling the combat system based on what fans said. I would say that counts as listening to there fans. This can be both a good or bad thing. People who don't like something tend to be more vocal then people who like or are apathetic about something. I personally liked the Mako when you were actually using it to fight. I wished that they had improved the controls and gave you more stuff to fight with it rather then completely remove it. When you had nothing to shoot at it was boring.

Aye, listening to the fans is good, but oftentimes the fans are just wrong.  They may hate the elevators, but that could be because they haven't realised its as an alternative to the loading screen, or they may hate having to drive the mako but then miss it when it's gone or not realised the underlying reason why they hated it was because of something else.  I hope Bioware knows to not only listen but also when not to, I know I wouldn't take anything I say at face value.

[Bamboozalist]

adam_grif wrote...

ME 2 had a plot an actual, believable, working plot.

Hahaha, no.

ME2 is the game where you recruit a team of people to go on a suicide mission without discussing what you're actually going to do when you find a way through the Omega 4 relay. Although throughout most of the game you're under the impression that the Collector are an entire civilization, Shepard's "Plan" consists of... directly attacking them head-on. Shepard didn't even bother bringing any nukes with him, presumably because Jack used the last one for her petty revenge.

When you get through, by pure coincidence, the Collectors have exactly one ship, you have exactly the right defenses and equipment to handle the problems you face when you get there, all of the collectors exist on a single solitary space-station, and can't take on 12 soldiers in a fight. Then, you fight your way to the core where a giant human slushee machine is building a giant human reaper out of the slushee (lol...), which you kill by using the weapons you have on you (LOL). Then, there just happens to be a magical overload switch that kills everyone on the base / blows the base up.

Mass Effect 2's overarching plot was abysmal. The only saving grace was the excellent recruitment and loyalty mission, but they are totally unrelated to the main plot.

L2Character driven plot.

Mass Effect 2's plot was recruiting and getting to know your crew hence why that took up 90% of the game. Also the Geth Army was decimated in ME1 by 3 people and a tank so 12 people fighting the collectors is actually a huge improvement. Also ME is based on sci-fi cliches through and through, if the collector base didn't have an self distruct switch there would be something wrong. And half way through it was implied by the location of the base that the collectors were not a gigantic civilization, nor would it make sense for them to be. Collectors as a whole were mindless husks for the Reapers to control through the Collector General, they're expendable mindless mooks, why would they have a whole civilization beyond a single base and a single ship. That single ship was more advanced that really advanced, they probably figured they only needed one. Remember the normandy advancements are partially based from studying the remains of a Reaper.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Bamboozalist wrote...

ME 2 had a plot an actual, believable, working plot. Make a crack team, connect with the team and get to know them, kick collector ass. That's called a character driven plot.

I'll just redirect you to Adam's post above.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 16 décembre 2010 - 02:08 .

[Knottedredloc]

Terror_K wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

You've apparently forgotten about the part of this whole feedback process where we have to take everyone's suggestions and figure out what is and is not going into a game. because it's not just about you and your opinions about what's good or bad. It's that guy's and that girl's and those people's and ours and my friends' and his families' and your nemesis' and her brother's and that girl's father's and that family's auto mechanic's ideas as well.

Yes, of course the RPG lovers are going to want more RPG in their game and shooter fans would like more shooter in their game. but it's not about who complains the loudest or who has the best suggestion or who is "right," whatever that means when it comes to preference, tolerance, and bias in an entertainment product or narrative. It's always going to be about what's best for the game. in some cases, yes, that will mean putting in something the RPG crowd's going to love. In other cases, it's about making the shooter crowd happy. Heck, sometimes it may even be about pleasing the one guy in Moose Jaw who really liked Gianna Parasini! Regardless of who a particular feature or plot or character is designed to please, we have to, as Jesse said, weave all of this goodness into an awesome game, and I think we're going to do that.

Of course, it does mean that we won't be able to please everyone all the time (where have I heard that said before?), but we'll always try to release a product that we think is fun, exciting, and that we can be proud of... unexpected problems notwithstanding. And maybe, just maybe, millions of gamers out there will agree with us.

But better for what kind of game and better for who?

And it seems like in the process of trying to make Mass Effect 2 an "awesome game" you made it too much of a game, and less of a unique experience like the first one was. ME2 just lost that spark that made it special and just feels like the cold product of trying to make the optimum game for the most amount of people rather than feeling like a work of art crafted by love that's meant to be what it's meant to be, whether that result is super popular overall amongst the masses or not. ME1 felt like it was aimed at a particular audience, while ME2 feels far more generic and mainstream like it's aimed too hard at trying to please as many as possible by being too much of a Jack of All Trades and being a Master of None in the process. ME2 feels methodical and cold because of this, as if it's the result of a bunch of things thrown into a "Make Perfect Game" machine rather than something crafted to be something of quality. It's all style over substance and simplicity over depth.

And I really do fail to see how taking away so much depth and customisation and putting far too much on auto-pilot is better for the game. ME1 had faults, I admit that, but ME2 overcompensated for them and removed far too much. The fact that modding is completely gone --a thing that pretty much was never complained about-- and is replaced by such a linear, unsatisfying, overly automated research/upgrade system with no real trade-offs that allows you to easily God-mod everything without any real true customisation alone is not something I'd consider good for any game, RPG or not. There's such a thing as oversimplicity and overautomation and taking the player out of the game and the game out of the game too much, and I feel ME2 crossed that line on all these counts.

The thing is, what type of game are you trying to make here? You say it's about "what's best for the game" but that can purely depend on what type of game you're trying to make. Are you really making an RPG with TPS combat, a half-and-half RPG/TPS shooter or a TPS that's just story-driven? Whatever it is, it'd be nice if once you started to make something you actually stuck with the plan rather than deciding to change things up halfway through the series just to appeal to a greater audience. Because that's what it seems like ME2 did to me. It's not only evident in the style changes, but the overall presentation and style of the game. It's pretty much screams "retooled for our new, younger target demographic."

The reason I loved and admired you guys so much in the past was because you didn't seem to care about all this "popularity and profit over quality" crap. BioWare was the company that always just seemed to be "we make our games the way we want, and we don't care if they're not popular with the mainstream masses." It was a case of you guys basically saying "games made for nerds, by nerds." And now it just seems that lately it's just all about being popular and going for the big audiences and to hell with making electronic works of art if making cold, generic moneymakers is more profitable.

Excellent comment Terror_K!

[SurfaceBeneath]

Of course they listen to the fanbase. However, the fanbase is not a unified "voice" and ANY change to a mechanic, no matter how generally derided, is going to draw ire from some segment. It's a pretty obvious fact that Bioware actually did address just about every complaint that was voiced about the first game in some manner. As to whether or not those changes were positive or not is up to interpretation and isn't pertinent to the topic at hand. But since this forum can't do anything but whine, it's really no surprise that this thread got dragged into that before the second page.

[Jebel Krong]

Knottedredloc wrote...

Excellent comment Terror_K!

no. it wasn't. don't encourage him: terror_k has only one agenda and that's reverting every game into his own personal view of what an "rpg" is, replete with stats, spreadsheets and dice. left to his own devices, it would be the same game, everytime, perhaps in the emperor's shiny new clothes, but mechanically stagnant.

[BiancoAngelo7]

Adam_Grif and TerrorK have made excellent, well structured points. Although someone may not appreciate varying levels of disappointment or critique, it doesn't mean that what they wrote isn't true Jebel Krong.



Unfortunately many if not all of the points they made are true to varying degrees. It saddens me to say so, because I love ME, but it's just the simple truth.



And a lot of what they said can be summed up by one simple thing: Think about the love you have for the ME games/franchise whatever.



Now think about where the majority of that love comes from. If I were to give you only ME1 or only ME2 which game do you think would create more of an in depth "experience" and create a true love for the story, game characters etc. and which do you think would you define as a fun "game"?



I think the answer is quite obvious. Unfortunately.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

I think the answer is quite obvious.

Ah, finally the recognition I deserve!

[Jebel Krong]

really? ME2 "lost that spark that made it special" did it? because that's subjective nonsense & personal opinion, not a supported statement of fact.

[nelly21]

Subjective nonsense is all you will find here Jebel my friend.



You try to show the glowing reviews from websites and fans alike: They just say, "it's just the Gears of War crowd that like it."



You try to show the awards the game has won: "Awards don't mean it's a good game."



You try to show the sales numbers: "Sales numbers don't matter."



They want to stay in their little cave and whine that the game wasn't exactly how THEY wanted it. You can't win. But don't worry Jebel, while you and I are busy enjoying the hell out of ME 3, they will be here, still ****ing about ME2.

[Jebel Krong]

yep i damn well will, cheers nelly

[Ajara123]

Wow i guess people just want the game there own way.



Yes, me2 isnt perfect but neither is me1. Like i said before ill still buy and play me3 reguardless.

[Sailears]

Great thread, very informative reading the posts here.

I agree with the overfixing vibe, and that as a sequel, the transition is jarring, and a let down in many ways. I won't elaborate here, because it's all been covered be Terror_K among others.

However I also agree that it is a fantastic game, and one I have spent countless hours on. Saying that, it is more enjoyable to play than its predecessor (which at times can be a chore to play).

What the problem is that so much pandering to the fans has resulted in a fantastic game, that has unfortunately lost a lot of the magic which made the first one more than just a game (despite the broken gameplay mechanics). Subjective I know, but that's how I feel.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Dusty
Everman explicitly asked us for our suggestions on how to improve the
Normandy back in July, Terror. I remember a lot of people were happily
responding to him and I could tell he was taking notes at the time.

No offence to Mr. Everman, but he should consult not
with fans, but with NASA guys, a few retired submariners and maybe a guy
or two from some yacht-building company on stuff like that.

Quoted for emphasis.

Anyway, I think this comment sums it up:

Ajara123 wrote...

At the end of the day it is there decision. I will play the game no matter what.

Modifié par Curunen, 16 décembre 2010 - 04:03 .

[glacier1701]

Bamboozalist wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

ME 2 had a plot an actual, believable, working plot.

....snip

L2Character driven plot.

Mass Effect 2's plot was recruiting and getting to know your crew hence why that took up 90% of the game. Also the Geth Army was decimated in ME1 by 3 people and a tank so 12 people fighting the collectors is actually a huge improvement. Also ME is based on sci-fi cliches through and through, if the collector base didn't have an self distruct switch there would be something wrong. And half way through it was implied by the location of the base that the collectors were not a gigantic civilization, nor would it make sense for them to be. Collectors as a whole were mindless husks for the Reapers to control through the Collector General, they're expendable mindless mooks, why would they have a whole civilization beyond a single base and a single ship. That single ship was more advanced that really advanced, they probably figured they only needed one. Remember the normandy advancements are partially based from studying the remains of a Reaper.

 Considering that the whole trilogy is supposedly SHEPARD's story and quite literally nothing in ME2 was about Shepard the plot was derailed. Yet when cornered on this by reviewers the comment handed back is that there is nothing wrong with the game its the players fault (which has been the standard response to a number of other criticisms that reviewers have pointed out to the ME devs). While certainly it worked as a character driven story (though not very well) it was NOT how BioWare painted the game before release. You should read this article about what BioWare is guilty of. They quite literally changed the genre (and audience they were after) but did so trying to disguise that by their interviews/dev trailers and so on. To a degree the criticism being leveled at BioWare and ME2 stems from that core contract breaking that went on. BioWare did not help itself with the release of Christina Norman presentation that showed that NO RPG (which was a core part of ME1) was a rule in effect for much of ME2 development. Nor did it help that simple things like a helmet toggle in cutscenes were ruled out even though some important scenes now look ridiculous because of the full helmet simply because the the helmet looks cool and the rule of cool had to prevail.

 This is not to say that BioWare cannot go after a different audience or change how a game is developed. However they are being disingenous when they make that change, fail to tell their current fans about it and then when those same fans complain tell them sorry but we are a business and we need to make money. It taints their image not only with the burnt fans but when those kinds of stories get around they hurt the company image with those gamers who listening to what was done in the past and who will not take a chance on a BioWare game in the future. It is unfortunate that such things are unquantifiable but they certainly DO make a difference on how future games are received and not in a good way. It is hurtful in that prior to ME2 I would have said that BioWare was known for listening to its game players, that it produced great games. Yet ME2 has shown that there has been an internal change within BioWare (or perhaps more specifically with ME) that is less responsive to player feedback and more responsive to whatever it is that might attract a few more dollars.

[sinosleep]

So basically most arguments here come down to



a.) If they made the changes I wanted they listen to their fans



b.) If they made changes I didn't want then they are a horrible company that doesn't listen to their fans.

[nelly21]

@ Glacier1701



I am struck with the fact that you are under the delusion that your opinion is in the majority when in fact, it's quite the opposite. What you are saying is that Bioware should be governed by the will of the minority. Mass Effect's marketing was exactly the same as Mass Effect 2's. You won't admit it of course because it doesn't fit into your argument, but look up the ME 1 launch trailer and tell me how it was different. ME 1 was always billed as a hybrid. So was ME 2. The storylines were major selling points to both.



I especially love how you claim that SO MANY fans have been burnt by this so-called deception and that they won't take a chance on another Bioware game. Really? So should Bioware instead run it's company into the ground to satisfy a few and ignore the majority of its fanbase that loved ME 2 and is still completely loyal?



Your arguments make no sense and are based entirely on personal opinions. Meanwhile, the rest of us will continue to enjoy Bioware for what it is, a company that delivers top quality games almost every time.

[FlintlockJazz]

glacier1701 wrote...

While certainly it worked as a character driven story (though not very well) it was NOT how BioWare painted the game before release. You should read this article about what BioWare is guilty of. They quite literally changed the genre (and audience they were after) but did so trying to disguise that by their interviews/dev trailers and so on.

That article you link to shows one thing: the marketing is at fault.  Considering that EA pretty much deals with all the marketing for Bioware and how much of a ****up they made of the Dragon Age trailer (Marilyn Manson indeed, really EA did that seem such a good idea at the time or did you just crap that out one morning?) I'd place the blame for it at EA's feet.  It fits their MO after all, EA have no clue what they are selling just that they need to market the crap out of it.

[jesuno]

They can be good and bad. One answer I have been trying to get is whether or not the PS3 version of ME2 has the save file copy lock. I private messaged Jesse and a few others, asked in the thread, and started a new thread after searching the forum and website for myself. So far, no answer has been given for something that should be, and I quote, well-publicized beforehand.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

nelly21 wrote...

You try to show the glowing reviews from websites and fans alike: They just say, "it's just the Gears of War crowd that like it."

You try to show the awards the game has won: "Awards don't mean it's a good game."

You try to show the sales numbers: "Sales numbers don't matter."

My apologies, I didn't realise that if game magazine/website editors/reviewers like a game, I have to as well. I really do appreciate you pointing out the error of my ways.

sinosleep wrote...

So basically most arguments here come down to

a.) If they made the changes I wanted they listen to their fans

b.) If they made changes I didn't want then they are a horrible company that doesn't listen to their fans.

Personally speaking, no. I enjoy ME2 a lot, don't get me wrong, it's a fun game. The main point that most of us are trying to make is that Bioware sortof listens, but doesn't listen properly. The removal of things like the Mako and Elevators instead of fixing them for example are some of the big complaints. The streamlining/dumbing-down of the RPG elements are another complaint, though one Bioware has already decided to fix. Hopefully they won't fix it by ditching it completely though...

So in a nutshell, it's not that they DON'T listen, it's that they don't listen PROPERLY or to the entire point people are trying to make. It's kinda like reading a headline of a news story and not bothering to read the meat of the article.

Modifié par Captain_Obvious_au, 16 décembre 2010 - 04:54 .

[shumworld]

Personally I'm happy we don't have the Mako. The Hammerhead is a good alternative, but I really don't want that thing to dominate my play through like the Mako did.

[Darth_Ultima]

shumworld wrote...

Personally I'm happy we don't have the Mako. The Hammerhead is a good alternative, but I really don't want that thing to dominate my play through like the Mako did.

I liked the Mako but you are definately right that it was overused because driving around all those barren worlds with nothing to do was boring.  They were all the same except for a different skybox and terrian textures.  You would land on the planet which would would usually have three indicators on your map showing where an outpost, an anomoly and some kind of salvagable debris was located.  I also found it funny that every underground outpost had the same red rock look no matter what it looked like outside.  I liked it when they had unique stuff like the colony that was overran by husks.  Or when you would answer a distress call and it would be a Geth ambush.  However I loved the skyway on Feros and the approach to the base assualt on Virmire.  You could tell they wanted to put more unique things into the unexplored worlds section because occasionally you would run into objects that were completely out of place like that strange alien skull on the volcano world where the Geth ambush you by using a fake distress signal, but they probably could not take that area of the game as far they wanted to because of production costs.  They definitely fixed the issue of cookie cutter side missions in ME2.

Modifié par Darth_Ultima, 16 décembre 2010 - 05:50 .

[Stanley Woo]

sinosleep wrote...

So basically most arguments here come down to

a.) If they made the changes I wanted they listen to their fans
b.) If they made changes I didn't want then they are a horrible company that doesn't listen to their fans.

Yes. that seems to be the crux of it, based only on the arguments presented in this very thread. Some great examples are given on this very page as well. Most people are aware of their biases, some are not, and that's fine, since we still take it all into account when developing our games.

[cachx]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

So basically most arguments here come down to

a.) If they made the changes I wanted they listen to their fans
b.) If they made changes I didn't want then they are a horrible company that doesn't listen to their fans.

Yes. that seems to be the crux of it, based only on the arguments presented in this very thread. Some great examples are given on this very page as well. Most people are aware of their biases, some are not, and that's fine, since we still take it all into account when developing our games.

Yep... aaand that's all I've got, never noticed this thread until now and pretty much everything as been said.

Liked ME1, loved ME2, keep up the good work and ME3 might just be amazing.