344 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Terror_K wrote...
One of the big differences between the boards here post ME1 and the boards there post ME2 is that afterwards the devs were at least humble enough to admit where their mistakes were and sometimes even asked our opinions on these things and why we felt they were weak and didn't work. With ME2 there just seems to be none of that. Aside from things (until rather recently with the ME3 teaser's debut) being pretty dead on the forums after ME2 came out, there just seems to be either nothing or some semi-smug vague comments that come across as if to say "ME2 was perfect" and hinting that if we have a problem with the game it's not their fault, it's ours.

I'd be a lot less critical and frustrated about my issues with ME2 if the devs actually acknowledged them in some way and at least said, "okay, we admit this could have been done better" or "perhaps this feature could be richer", etc. But I just get the impression that all the devs just seem to think ME2 did no wrong and could do no wrong and that there's nothing worth discussing. Beyond a single comment way back on Christina Norman's GDC presentation about a month after the game came out, there's really been no indication that the criticisms and issues have even been taken to heart. 

Maybe the devs don't think that your issues are problems. Doesn't mean the game's perfect, just that the things you don't like aren't things that they see as flaws.

I've got several problems with ME2, but threads always drift away from attacking things I didn't like about the design (like the P/R implementation) into attacking things that I'm neutral about or like, so I end up defending the game. If the devs think like me, what could they say in those threads except that they're sorry, but you guys are not going to be listened to? Which I guess you'd be OK with personally.

[Pacifien]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...
Personally speaking, no. I enjoy ME2 a lot, don't get me wrong, it's a fun game. The main point that most of us are trying to make is that Bioware sortof listens, but doesn't listen properly. The removal of things like the Mako and Elevators instead of fixing them for example are some of the big complaints.*snip*

Oh, see, I don't buy this argument at all. When I lurked on the old forums, the complaint was simple: get rid of the Mako and the slow elevators.

People need to know what they're complaint truly is. The Mako had some tedious moments associated with it, but the louder complaints weren't about refining the Mako's controls or taking better care to design the landscape. The loudest complaint was that the Mako sucked and the developers should remove it.

It's only with their removal did people understand what their actual complaint was. Or the people who complained the loudest are satisfied, they quiet down, and a new group take their place.

People can say "I want more squad banter," but without really describing how they want squad banter, they open the door for BioWare to implement squad banter in a way that entirely displeases them. They can say they want the return of elevators, but do they want the return of elevators to disguise load times again?

And you simply can't say "removing it was a mistake, put it back." There were complaints originally for a reason. You still have to address those reasons, but people simply say "put it back." Well, then we're back where we started.

I've seen people make their complaints and then say it's up to BioWare to figure out what the real issue is. Unfortunately, not everyone's brain is wired the same way as yours. Why you disliked something isn't the same as why someone else disliked it or even liked it.

Take the mining game. People on the forums are very vocal that they found it tedious and want it removed. But honestly, the first time I played through the game, the mining wasn't tedious. And I do see people on the forums who think "what's the big deal about mining?" It was different. It became tedious with more playthroughs and there was no alternative to obtain the resources I needed without the unofficial save game editor. I could tell BioWare they should remove it. But then what are they going to replace it with? I didn't give them any ideas, I just said remove it. Maybe they remove the need for resources to upgrade anything, simplifying the process even further and then people complain about that.

[Nozybidaj]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...
 It's a pretty obvious fact that Bioware actually did address just about every complaint that was voiced about the first game in some manner.

Some one complained about the Mako.  Get rid of it.
Some one complained about the Inventory.  Get rid of it.
Some one complained about the guns overheating.  Get rid of it.
Some one complained about Ash/Kaidan.  Get rid of them.
Some one complained about Liara.  Get rid of her.
Some one complained about the Reapers.  Get rid of them.
Some one complained about the story.  Get rid of it.

Yeah, I can see your point.

[AlanC9]

glacier1701 wrote...
 Considering that the whole trilogy is supposedly SHEPARD's story and quite literally nothing in ME2 was about Shepard the plot was derailed.

Nothing? That's funny; I could have sworn ME2 is all about how Shepard leads a suicide mission to stop the Collectors. Who on earth was I playing?

[Darth_Ultima]

Pacifien wrote...
Oh, see, I don't buy this argument at all. When I lurked on the old forums, the complaint was simple: get rid of the Mako and the slow elevators.

People need to know what they're complaint truly is. The Mako had some tedious moments associated with it, but the louder complaints weren't about refining the Mako's controls or taking better care to design the landscape. The loudest complaint was that the Mako sucked and the developers should remove it.

It's only with their removal did people understand what their actual complaint was. Or the people who complained the loudest are satisfied, they quiet down, and a new group take their place.

Your my hero.

BTW I never posted on the old boards and I liked the Mako.

[jesuno]

How about answering a question? Seems to be some problem there.

[AlanC9]

Pacifien wrote...

Oh, see, I don't buy this argument at all. When I lurked on the old forums, the complaint was simple: get rid of the Mako and the slow elevators.

People need to know what they're complaint truly is. The Mako had some tedious moments associated with it, but the louder complaints weren't about refining the Mako's controls or taking better care to design the landscape. The loudest complaint was that the Mako sucked and the developers should remove it.

It's only with their removal did people understand what their actual complaint was. Or the people who complained the loudest are satisfied, they quiet down, and a new group take their place.

Is remove the right word for the Mako? We did get the Hammerhead, after all.

Take the mining game. People on the forums are very vocal that they found it tedious and want it removed. But honestly, the first time I played through the game, the mining wasn't tedious. And I do see people on the forums who think "what's the big deal about mining?" It was different. It became tedious with more playthroughs and there was no alternative to obtain the resources I needed without the unofficial save game editor. I could tell BioWare they should remove it. But then what are they going to replace it with? I didn't give them any ideas, I just said remove it. Maybe they remove the need for resources to upgrade anything, simplifying the process even further and then people complain about that.

Personally, I'd be just fine with them dropping all pretense of an exploration game since it's not one of Bio's strengths anyway. But if you've got to have planet exploration in a SF game, I didn't think the planet scan/ occasional N7 mission is a bad implementation.

[Nozybidaj]

AlanC9 wrote...

glacier1701 wrote...

Considering that the whole trilogy is supposedly SHEPARD's story and quite literally nothing in ME2 was about Shepard the plot was derailed.

Nothing? That's funny; I could have sworn ME2 is all about how Shepard leads a suicide mission to stop the Collectors. Who on earth was I playing?

You could have swapped out Shepard with Conrad Verner and nothing about the story would have changed significantly except the opening sequence. You could have even swapped out Shepard for a DAO style silent protagonist gun totting bad a** space marine #98,798,798 and nothing significant would have changed. I fail to see how Shepard was somehow vital enough to ME2 to make it "his" story.

[Bamboozalist]

Nozybidaj wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

glacier1701 wrote...
Considering that the whole trilogy is supposedly SHEPARD's story and quite literally nothing in ME2 was about Shepard the plot was derailed.

Nothing? That's funny; I could have sworn ME2 is all about how Shepard leads a suicide mission to stop the Collectors. Who on earth was I playing?

You could have swapped out Shepard with Conrad Verner and nothing about the story would have changed significantly except the opening sequence. You could have even swapped out Shepard for a DAO style silent protagonist gun totting bad a** space marine #98,798,798 and nothing significant would have changed. I fail to see how Shepard was somehow vital enough to ME2 to make it "his" story.

Because ME2 was meant to tie directly into ME3 and it was about Shepard getting and keeping his new team?

[Phaedon]

 The ignorance of some of the posts here make me sad.

People did like Mass Effect 2.
People did like it's story.
People did like the changes.

That's why the game was a blockbuster. 


I don't see why it's OK to call Bioware smug (and I am not referring to one person) and claim that ME2 was extremely flawed or that they claim that it was perfect. It's simple, your opinion doesn't matter more than the opinion of the rest. You don't get to demand to see it implemented.

You need to understand that each Mass Effect is a game that developers put a lot of love in. They have their own ideas, principles and personality and they won't hide them because 'your idea is better'. You can post constructive criticism and a few ideas, but you are not entitled to being able to bash the actual persons behind the game and say that it 'lol, sucks, bioware doesnt listn to the fans anymr'. If you don't like it, play something else, you are doing more harm than good.

In conclusion, fine, post your idea and your opinion, Bioware has specific people that look at what the community and reviewers have to say, but you don't get to make demands. They might include it, or they might think that their idea is better.

Because, well that's like your opinion, man. 

Modifié par Phaedon, 16 décembre 2010 - 06:40 .

[Ajara123]

I can say this happens with all games. Some one complains and wants to remove something. When it gets removed they shut up. After that happens the cycle starts all over again. Its like people are never satisfied with anything.

[Bourne Endeavor]

nelly21 wrote...

You try to show the glowing reviews from websites and fans alike: They just say, "it's just the Gears of War crowd that like it."

Mass Effect was highly praised and if you read those reviews most mention that while the Mako had issues. The complete lack of plant exploration was disappointing. IGN has already stated they want this to return in ME3. And to be favor, for each glowing review, there is a complaint to follow.

You try to show the awards the game has won: "Awards don't mean it's a good game."

Mass Effect has also won awards despite all the apparent flaws it had.

You try to show the sales numbers: "Sales numbers don't matter."

I recall VGcats listed that both games had almost identical sale numbers.

They want to stay in their little cave and whine that the game wasn't exactly how THEY wanted it. You can't win. But don't worry Jebel, while you and I are busy enjoying the hell out of ME 3, they will be here, still ****ing about ME2.

Ironically, you commend Terror's post for being opinionated and bias, although admittedly more so Jebel, yet the both of your posts is no different than his. The sole exception being a significantly less indepth analysis why; and of course. You support Mass Effect 2 over Mass Effect.

I mostlyagree with Terror and cite his post an excellent read. That being said, not everything he posted we agree on, which is normal. I am more willing to compromise inclusions in ME2 that some disliked if other areas receive more necessary attention. One would be the inventory system. I am indifferent to it since I never believed it could not be rectified from the monotonous chore it had been in ME, yet do not dislike the weapon locker concept utilized in ME2. If I were to post my most disappointing removal, it would be the lack of focus on RPG elements from a story perspective such as ME's Citadel. No city in ME2 captured the atmosphere akin to the aforementioned. This alongside minimal customization, over diminished biotics, global cooldowns, horrid lack of continuality (no emails do not count), cheapened romance scenes and lack of conversations with certain... "can it wait a bit? I am in the middle of some calibrations."

When I claim to what a stronger focus on RPG, I do not necessarily desire statistics; although I do fancy them at times. I refer more to the story and characters, such as squad banter and a better structured main plot.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 16 décembre 2010 - 06:45 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

Sigh, thought someone would have posted after me. My apologies for the double post.



In lieu of Pacifien's post, if I were to elaborate further on the list I provided of aspects I did not fancy. It would be compiled as such...

- Squad banter would entail minor conversations invoked by your squad commenting upon the area you are in and more openly talking to one another and not always Shepard. For example, bring Garrus to Tuchunka and neither he nor Wrex so much as blink at one another. Additionally, the conflict aboard the Normandy was a nice touch. It does not always have to be conflict, yet something, even just a few lines of dialogue between the characters would be nice.

- While I never complained about elevators, frankly because I never did find the delay as irritating as some would suggest. I certain hold them superior to the alternative and yes in disguising loading screens, especially on the Normandy.

- Never disliked the Mako, although I did eventually find the tediousness mount upon exploring barren planets with copy/pasted designs with slightly altered mountains or a swapped color palette. Meanwhile, the Hammerhead is a pain. Between the incessant beeping and the horrid lack of defense. I dread having to use that machine. I would propose a merger of the two and more developed side missions with actual dialogue. I always enjoyed assignments such as Major Kyle where you had a brief conversation and in some cases could elude combat. The N7 missions in ME2 are mostly monotonous. I do however fancy the non combative ones for their originality. Walking along a ship teetering on the edge of a cliff was intriguing.

- For the romance scenes. The conclusion was weak, especially in comparison to Mass Effect. The predecessor was tasteful and mature, the successor was cheap and PG. If games can get away with enough blood to flood a city. They can get away with what ME allowed. For ME3 I would rather see a focus on developing the existing romance and/or the conflict if you cheated. Yes, that entails no new romances. Developing a romance beyond sex is a rarity in games and I would love to see it.

- Customization should be appended upon, wherein perhaps we can affix our weapons with a variety of different mods to impact one aspect, yet not any other. One concept I had would begin us with a single type of gun (Pistol, Shotgun and etc) with differential initial statistics and subsequent modifications would determine their end game potential with positives and negative features. For example, if you purchased mods (each through cash or resources) and focused entirely on compensating for the shotgun's lack of range and accuracy. You would have a high powered shotgun similar to the GPS, yet the trade off would be it was less powerful than someone who opted to force on creating a death gun.

Beyond weaponry, additional armor and casual wear would be nice. Most importantly, a helmet toggle or do not bother with armor we cannot pick apart. If the forums on the variety of sites I visit are any indication. Virtually no one uses those armors unless they play a joke run or wish to giggle when Shepard kisses through his/her helmet.

- Separate animations for Femshep or... just have her cross her legs. Seriously, the clipping I can handle but presenting Garrus with a wide shot up her dress while hilarious, sort of takes you out of the game. Like the abovementioned helmet kissing.

- Have biotics be capable of targeting through protection and perhaps weaken over time so they use more usage. Ditching the global cooldown so we are not spamming Charge, Cloak, AR, Singualrity and Tech Armor at least 75% would be nice.

- While most things I say could be repaired. Just remove Mission Complete screens. The gathering of the squad (ME) or Miranda and Jacob talking in the assembly room should suffice. Just please no Mission Complete screen. Use the email for an overview of the mission summary.

- Choices having an impact and returning squad mates in active (join your party) roles but these two have been beaten to death in other threads. So we shall just leave it at that.

There, my more in-depth post as to what I would prefer fixed.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 16 décembre 2010 - 07:30 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

glacier1701 wrote...
Considering that the whole trilogy is supposedly SHEPARD's story and quite literally nothing in ME2 was about Shepard the plot was derailed.

Nothing? That's funny; I could have sworn ME2 is all about how Shepard leads a suicide mission to stop the Collectors. Who on earth was I playing?

You could have swapped out Shepard with Conrad Verner and nothing about the story would have changed significantly except the opening sequence. You could have even swapped out Shepard for a DAO style silent protagonist gun totting bad a** space marine #98,798,798 and nothing significant would have changed. I fail to see how Shepard was somehow vital enough to ME2 to make it "his" story.

Because ME2 was meant to tie directly into ME3 and it was about Shepard getting and keeping his new team?

If I could offer some advice, don't bother arguing with the troll. Judging by the post they posted earlier on it is clear they still haven't accepted that the Devs told us that a certain trio were getting sidelined in ME2 so they would survive to ME3. It's the reason they have that childish signature. Failing to grasp that there is no ME4 to sideline the ME2 squad for like the trio were for ME2. Also judging from the above post you've quoted, clearly doesn't grasp the reasoning as to why ME2 story affects Shepard.

As for the other things, they claim Bioware got rid of in ME2, funny I either saw most of those things or replacements for them in ME2

Weapons and Inventory - Still there, just not the clutter mess that it was in ME
Mako - Replaced by Hammerhead
Story - Still there
Reapers - Most definitly still there
Ash, Liara, Kaidan - All still there

Edit: @Bourne hey perhaps romance is one of those things Casey mentioned in that interview the other day. Something we wouldn't expect them to do. I do agree it would be nice for them to be expanded. I think we'll possibly only have 1 extra LI in ME3. That way there is the potential for at least 3 (VS, Liara + new LI)

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 16 décembre 2010 - 07:44 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Phaedon wrote...
People did like Mass Effect 2.
People did like it's story.
People did like the changes.

In your opinion.

[Lumikki]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

You try to show the glowing reviews from websites and fans alike: They just say, "it's just the Gears of War crowd that like it."

Mass Effect was highly praised and if you read those reviews most mention that while the Mako had issues. The complete lack of plant exploration was disappointing. IGN has already stated they want this to return in ME3. And to be favor, for each glowing review, there is a complaint to follow.

You try to show the awards the game has won: "Awards don't mean it's a good game."

Mass Effect has also won awards despite all the apparent flaws it had.

You try to show the sales numbers: "Sales numbers don't matter."

I recall VGcats listed that both games had almost identical sale numbers.

They want to stay in their little cave and whine that the game wasn't exactly how THEY wanted it. You can't win. But don't worry Jebel, while you and I are busy enjoying the hell out of ME 3, they will be here, still ****ing about ME2.

Ironically, you commend Terror's post for being opinionated and bias, although admittedly more so Jebel, yet the both of your posts is no different than his. The sole exception being a significantly less indepth analysis why; and of course. You support Mass Effect 2 over Mass Effect.

That's not really what Nelly21 meaned by little "unpolite" comment. Point was that some people don't accept that ME2 was also success, not just ME1. They don't accept it because they liked other game more. That kind of attitude creates blindness to see how stuff really is. Oh, I liked both games equal much, just little different ways.

Modifié par Lumikki, 16 décembre 2010 - 08:07 .

[Nozybidaj]

Pacifien wrote...
Oh, see, I don't buy this argument at all. When I lurked on the old forums, the complaint was simple: get rid of the Mako and the slow elevators.

So your argument is that BW is unable to gather feedback and look at it in ways outside the original context to develop workable and more accepted solutions.  That they can only take feedback at face value and if they decide to act on it do exactly what the feedback said.

In the case of the Mako for instance, you are saying BW was unable to see that some folks didn't like the Mako and were either unable or unwilling to determine the underlying cause of why people disliked it and had to take the feedback of "get rid of it" at face value, and in this case, did so.

That is your argument?  Fair enough....

[Pacifien]

Nozybidaj wrote...
That is your argument?  Fair enough....

That wasn't my argument at all, but people will project whatever interpretation they want to in my post. In which case, I don't really feel compelled to clarify.

Modifié par Pacifien, 16 décembre 2010 - 08:07 .

[Nohvarr]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Oh, see, I don't buy this argument at all. When I lurked on the old forums, the complaint was simple: get rid of the Mako and the slow elevators.

In the case of the Mako for instance, you are saying BW was unable to see that some folks didn't like the Mako and were either unable or unwilling to determine the underlying cause of why people disliked it and had to take the feedback of "get rid of it" at face value, and in this case, did so.

Considering the Hammerhead doesn't have the same control issues, is much faster and is not forced upon the player every. single. time.  I'd say your acusation is inaccurate. They created a solution based off their own ideas and the feedback they recieve. Just because some fans didn't like the solution dosen't mean they weren't listened too.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
People did like Mass Effect 2.
People did like it's story.
People did like the changes.

In your opinion.

I would imagine Phaedon is talking about people Phaedon knows, so it isn't just his opinion.

I did like Mass Effect 2, it's story and some of the changes, some I think just needed fixing up, but I'm not going to cry about it.

@Bourne
Nooooo! Jack (avatar) wore the Cerberus Armor for most of the game, apart from when went to HUB place for drinks. Course he was a default Shep so he never got any of those extra kisses that others got, but yeah other than going for drinks and right at the start, he wore that armor and otherwise it was the N7 that he is wearing in the avatar pic. I also had a couple of squaddies using the Inferno Armor and one who used the Blood Dragon Armor. I didn't use the Collector Armor, I kept meaning to use it for some of my sheps when doing a certain mission where it would be best suited, but kept forgetting to put it on beforehand lol

So no, not everyone just used those '1-piece' suits of armor for giggles. Am not saying keep them, although I would like to see them stay but maybe allow for them to have a toggle. Surely if they can appear in Kasumi's mission without the helmet that a model can be made for Shep's to wear with a helmet toggle?

On a related note, as I've said in some other topics, I would like the functionality for us to be able to wear 'Casual' gear on HUB places in the areas where we don't fight. Maybe have some function whereby at the dock there is a storage locker there and we can change clothing rather than having to jump onto the ship (wouldn't break immersion because could say the locker was brought off the ship ). As Bourne said, more clothes/armor variants too.

I really liked the Recon Hood and the Kuwashii Visor (perfectly fitting for an infiltrator romancing Garrus ), I would use the latter for the most part with my Infiltrator and swap to the former when on missions that were on 'hazardous' planets (or if I forgot the N7 breather). I would like to see some Armor that is more 'lightweight' to 'Medium' in looks for Infiltrators to wear. Maybe incorporating something akin the recon hood, or maybe like what that Sniper is wearing in the trailer as that looks less bulky than the standard N7. Oh and maybe some Cerberus Armor for Jacob and Miranda like the actual Cerberus Armor but maybe a bit more lightweight for Miranda, but not catsuit-ish, she already has that outfit.

[Phaedon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
In your opinion.

'That's why it's a blockbuster'

That was, what, a line after this ?

[Lumikki]

Nohvarr wrote...

Just because some fans didn't like the solution dosen't mean they weren't listened too.

Yes and the solution it self can sometimes create new unexpect issues.

More detailed feedback we players can give about issues, better it can be solved, but not every solution will be perfect. Also developers need to know what's the players motive behind the feedback, not just what's asked. Example sertain type of players can ask sertain stuff, while others have different opinions to subject, because they needs are different.

[Babli]

Phaedon wrote...
I did like Mass Effect 2.
I did like it's story.
I did like the changes.

Fix´d

[Phaedon]

Babli wrote...
Fix´d

No.
Also, sites with user ratings.