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[Arijharn]

lovgreno wrote...
Don't take my lame attempts of being clever and funny serious please.

Oh, I don't take your failberus as serious, but I know that there are a lot of people on this board who think they're just plain incompetent (Sajuro for one). They see the lack of success due to the amount of projects we mop up with and plain just project that onto their other endeavours, taking it at face value really. That's what I find preposterous really, but it's a game and I'm probably trying to make it more believable for other people. It honestly doesn't help that Cerberus seems to be the Mass Effect whipping boy.

lovgreno wrote...
In any case Cerberus has accomplished a very good thing with resurecting Shepard even if their clumsyness almost ruined that project too.

This is true, but I can't help but think how much of it was preventable. Unlike Zulu, I find the idea that Lazarus was a way for Cerberus to clean undesirables as being incredibly inefficient, incredibly pointless (considering Freedom's Progress could be a good way to test Shephard's capabilities 'in the field' regardless) and well, incredibly dangerous for all sorts of reasons. Honestly, I'm more of the opinion that Lazarus Project and it's infiltration by the Shadow Broker was more to do with sheer bad luck rather than Cerberus dragging it's heels in some way... potentially a lot of desirable and intelligent researchers were killed there, and I can't imagine that Cerberus would be keen on 'dispatching' people because, well... that thought is quite retarded I feel.

Another thing though, I find it fascinating that whenever people argue about the unethical practices of Cerberus (and lets face it, there's a choice between them) I can only think of one person who has stated that resurrecting someone from the dead could be considered unethical as well. I guess because it was successful, it's vindicated then?

lovgreno wrote...
Sure their efforts to aid Shepard often harms our hero (and quite possibly the humanity they want to help as well in the long run) more than helps him/her but at least they are trying to do something about the reapers. A part of the dilemma and drama of the ME2 story is that Shep has a very questionable ally in Cerberus and we are always reminded of that Shep pays a high price, possibly costing him/her even a victory against the reapers, for working with them.

I can't buy the bold to be honest... as far as I see it, the races will have to work with Cerberus etc. They may do it grudgingly or whatever, but if the Reapers start smashing systems, then isolation isn't going to work for anyone. Presumably (and this is just my wild guesswork) then the Reaper IFF that we recovered in 2 is going to have even more... effect in 3 due to the fact that the Reapers lock down individual systems (IIRC), considering the O4 gate is locked down (or was it just unsafe to enter?) then I think the IFF is going to have an even greater role in things.

I don't think Cerberus' actions harm humanity though. Without a doubt it can be a pretty rough ride for individuals though. If Cerberus became too well known amongst the greater community though, and if it draws suspicions on humans in general though, then thats when I would agree with you wholeheartedly.

I just had a thought, it might be good if we saw/heard of sacrifices that TIM has been forced to make, it might make him more of a monster, but it might show that he's more 'qualified' to make the sort of decisions that people already assume that he has made.

[MassEffect762]

Cerberus= Alliance Deniability, Kansas city shuffle.



Cerberus= Tier 1 "Black Ops"



Cerberus= The dark side in us all.

[Vaenier]

MassEffect762 wrote...

Cerberus= Alliance Deniability, Kansas city shuffle.

Cerberus= Tier 1 "Black Ops"

Cerberus= The dark side in us all.

Cerberus = beaten by the bioware stupid bat into incompitance.

[lovgreno]

Arijharn, why would anyone belive Cerberus even if we as players and Shepard knows it would be a good idea to hear about the things they know about the base and reapers? They have managed to make themselves enemies with everyone and their connection with Shepard has made him her look rather suspicious too. They constantly lie and use misinformation. I honestly can't blame the Council for being sceptical to Shepards frankly rather crazy sounding warnings to begin with. Sure the tech from the base could possibly be used for everyones benefit (or indoctrination if we are unlucky) but Cerberus are realy a liability if you want to share it effectively.



Then again the new Shadowbroker seems to know everything Cerberus does anyway so I guess we can just ask her to steal the good stuff Cerberus have and share it more efficently.



I think Cerberus are already harming humanity by making humans look bad with things like the attack on the flotilla. Their habit of assasinations are a very risky method who often are contraproductive. To me it does seem like Cerberus activities have been leaking out at an alarming rate since ME1. What if the base becomes a screw up in the magnitude of operation Overlord (Can happen)? Humanity realy doesn't need more bad reputation in the galaxy when they need allies the most with the comming reaper conflict.



Well we all assume a lot about TIM, we can't do much else since he is so illusive. So we will have to wait and see I guess.

[Arijharn]

lovgreno wrote...
Arijharn, why would anyone belive Cerberus even if we as players and Shepard knows it would be a good idea to hear about the things they know about the base and reapers? They have managed to make themselves enemies with everyone and their connection with Shepard has made him her look rather suspicious too. They constantly lie and use misinformation. I honestly can't blame the Council for being sceptical to Shepards frankly rather crazy sounding warnings to begin with. Sure the tech from the base could possibly be used for everyones benefit (or indoctrination if we are unlucky) but Cerberus are realy a liability if you want to share it effectively.

A couple of ways, one you've already made mention of; misinformation (well, to be more fair, perhaps misdirection is a better word to use). The other way would of course be desperation when the Reaper fleets invade. If Earth for example was getting attacked, I can't think that even the Council would just sit back and watch the way the winds blow if they're serious about, well, any policy they've ever enacted.

It's true that they probably would be suspect if Cerberus directly came to parties themselves and said: "This is information that we've gleaned from a base we shouldn't have in the middle of the Terminus Systems where we shouldn't be" but this is one of the many reasons that Cerberus has front companies, even if Cord-Hislop Aerospace was known by several parties that it is actually a front for Cerberus operations (and, if that was known, you'd think that it would have sanctions placed upon it or it was shut down at most).

If Cord-Hislop (for arguments sake) came forward with highly advanced weaponry and say offers it's implementation into the Alliance fleets via re-fits at a relatively inexpensive price, then I think that the Alliance for example would go all for it. I don't think that it's origin would be an issue to the pencil-pushers at least. They may be a bit suspicious of why it's so cheap maybe, but that's for spin doctors. This would also go forward with presumably help from Cerberus agents already within the Alliance bureaucracy who subtly push the project forward. I guess the issue that would diverge in this state as to whether players would elect to 'leak' the information of weapon schematics to other species or even allow Cerberus to do so (I would wager that it would be in the interests of everyone that Cerberus would allow a great deal of information to wind its way into the other species hands due to the fact that there's probably little point in only allowing human weapon systems be effective, because sooner or later the Reapers would just ignore the other species and turn their guns on the Alliance -- however, I think it's important to add that I think Cerberus would keep the truly advanced weapon systems to itself and to the alliance or its backers)

lovgreno wrote...
Then again the new Shadowbroker seems to know everything Cerberus does anyway so I guess we can just ask her to steal the good stuff Cerberus have and share it more efficently.

That could be true, I guess it depends on how much the Shadow Broker actually gets on Cerberus vs Cerberus purposely leaking information or allowing SB to know certain things. I'm more than sure that both happen.

lovgreno wrote...
I think Cerberus are already harming humanity by making humans look bad with things like the attack on the flotilla. Their habit of assasinations are a very risky method who often are contraproductive. To me it does seem like Cerberus activities have been leaking out at an alarming rate since ME1. What if the base becomes a screw up in the magnitude of operation Overlord (Can happen)? Humanity realy doesn't need more bad reputation in the galaxy when they need allies the most with the comming reaper conflict.

I don't think many people know that much about Cerberus at all to be honest. I think Cerberus gets mentioned occasionally because it might head up on the list of the Council's 'to-watch' list. I think Cerberus is below the radar at least to the common man for the most part, only coming to the fore in sensationalistic stories like those found in Daily news sections like the events of the planet Trident or when there was a furore over supposed mission codes found in newspaper adverts or whatever.

In my view of the events you've outlined above, Cerberus actions have made Cerberus itself look bad rather than any statement on humanity itself. In other words, I think to the average joe, Cerberus doesn't have nearly the same negative connotation on humanity as say al-Queda does on Islam to the general population (I mean, seriously, there are way to many people out there who believe fundamentalism reflects general attitudes).

Modifié par Arijharn, 17 décembre 2010 - 04:55 .

[lovgreno]

Misinformation is not a good way to spread information, that kind of thing often goes out of controll. And spreading usefull things just to the Alliance is not enough, better if everyone have this advantage, even the batarians. Does TIM have the wisdom to do this considering his major agenda wich is a pipe dream of a galaxy dominated by humanity? Then again I must admit that it's better if the Alliance have a possible advantage than if no one have it.



Well look at Al Queda, they have in reality done very little but they still managed to make a mess of things that costs us all very much. Cerberus has done a lot of things that are very severe in comparasion and that has already leaked out. If, or probably when, the Overlord fiasco leaks out, how will those already speptical to those strange newcommers humans react? What almost happened was a catastrophy on a galactic scale caused by humans. And could the geth still keep out of organic matters as they wish to if such a threat to their very freedom was (probably will be) revealed?



Cerberus is already playing with fire and getting everyone burned in the process. It can get much worse than it already is and polital instability, even war, is not what the galaxy can afford at the moment with the comming reaper conflict.

[Arijharn]

lovgreno wrote...
Misinformation is not a good way to spread information, that kind of thing often goes out of controll. And spreading usefull things just to the Alliance is not enough, better if everyone have this advantage, even the batarians. Does TIM have the wisdom to do this considering his major agenda wich is a pipe dream of a galaxy dominated by humanity? Then again I must admit that it's better if the Alliance have a possible advantage than if no one have it.\\\\

My point being is that Cerberus still has numerous ways of getting its information out without people becoming aware of Cerberus' involvement. This also suits Cerberus' goals. They don't want their actions to be in the public domain.

Like I said though; I would have effective weapon systems leaked to the other species as well, because using other species as some sort of shield device is counter-intuitive. Here's some reasons why: A) It spreads our fleets potentially too thin, Sooner or later the Reapers are going to catch on to the fact that only human forces are a threat, therefore fire on the human forces first and casually 'sweep aside' the others.

But lets be honest here, if the Collector Base gave us technology that could be 20 years ahead of galactic standard, then perhaps Cerberus would only give the 'bare minimum' to the other species (for arguments sake: 15 years) in order for them to be effective against the Reapers -- and honestly, I wouldn't give our entire technological advantage to other species for much the same reason why the US Congress doesn't allow the sale of its most effective weapon systems to other countries, no matter how close ally's they are.

lovgreno wrote...
Well look at Al Queda, they have in reality done very little but they still managed to make a mess of things that costs us all very much. Cerberus has done a lot of things that are very severe in comparasion and that has already leaked out. If, or probably when, the Overlord fiasco leaks out, how will those already speptical to those strange newcommers humans react?

With maturity I hope. Look, no one in their right minds blames Islam (as a whole) for the troubles caused by al-Queada. They blame al-Queada. There's a bit of a difference with scale. Do you see just how tenuous your claim is? I'm trying so hard to avoid invoking Godwin's Law here as an example.

You're saying that the actions of a very few will tarnish the reputation of an entire race, I just can not see that happening by the actions of Cerberus because Cerberus doesn't even pretend to be some sort of new world order, i.e., they aren't going out of their way to gather public perception or sympathy to it's goals.

lovgreno wrote...
What almost happened was a catastrophy on a galactic scale caused by humans. And could the geth still keep out of organic matters as they wish to if such a threat to their very freedom was (probably will be) revealed?

Maybe, but if Overlord was allowed to be successful (aka; you kept David where he was) then they wouldn't have that option. I guess it really depends on their own perceptions on it as opposed to ours, because they allowed a mere human decide the fate of their species by re-writing a portion or allowing it's destruction.

I hate to say it though, but I would wager that it would be incredibly hard for an independent auditor to actually prove any Cerberus wrong-doing because Cerberus can at the very least, close up shop and start somewhere else.

lovgreno wrote...
Cerberus is already playing with fire and getting everyone burned in the process. It can get much worse than it already is and polital instability, even war, is not what the galaxy can afford at the moment with the comming reaper conflict.

I don't think it's in Cerberus interests to start a war either to be honest, and I haven't seen evidence of them intentionally starting a war in preempt of a Reaper invasion (or anytime really). I guess I have much more faith that TIM has a greater degree of common sense than what you give him believe.

Modifié par Arijharn, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:44 .

[lovgreno]

Arijharn wrote...I guess I have much more faith that TIM has a greater degree of common sense than what you give him believe.

Ah well fair enough, but keep in mind that TIMmy has manipulated and lied to everyone and we know basicaly nothing about him and his very personal ideas of how to save humanity from itself and the big bad aliens. Sure I would like to see him as a very practical man too as that would make a better story but I can't help getting the feeling (that is vague, I admit it) that he and the Cerberus leaders are blinded by their isolation and idealism. This is not the kind of people you should trust with anything if you have a choice.