129 réponses à ce sujet

[nelly21]

@ Darth Lopez



It isn't fact. You can't tell me that only 14 year olds enjoy CoD's story and expect me to take you seriously. You and I didn't enjoy the story. But look online at reviews and such and most of them say the story was top notch. Are they all retarded? No. They simply enjoy a different type of storyline than we do. I'm sure there are quite a few mature adults that look at a story about giant alien machines destroying the galaxy and think it's childish.



Secondly, the reason you don't see the Collectors all the time is because they aren't a common sight in the galaxy. The books and the games both established that seeing them is rare. Hell, Miranda wasn't entirely sure that it was a Collector she was seeing in the beginning of the game. So would it make more sense to you storywise to just have them running all around Omega, and Citadel space? No. It wouldn't because you are not an idiot.



Lastly, I can understand the frustration with the REQUIREMENT to do side missions for the advancement of the story. But did you honestly not care more about this squad than your ME 1 squad? Did you not feel a little more nervous the first time you did the suicide mission and hoped you had done everything right? I did. The side quests were a big reason for that. If I hadn't seen Miranda's side story, I wouldn't have given a crap about her dying in the suicide mission. Suddenly, she became more than a femme fatale. Same with all of them. Bioware wanted the suicide mission to be nerve wracking, and the first time it was. That was because you didn't want your suad mates to die.



I understand some of your points Darth, but don't confuse your dislike of the story for irefutable fact.

[Alamar2078]

I may have agreed initially but I've got a feeling that if ME2 sees more DLC like Lair of the Shadow Broker and more "bridging" DLC then the whole body of work WILL be complete.

[Aigyl]

I don't think ME2 was ever trying to have a better main story than ME1. ME2 introduced new characters, fleshed out and expanded on the setting, and put events in motion for ME3 (Quarians vs. Geth, Genophage, EDI, etc.). In that aspect I think ME2's storytelling was excellent.

[AlanC9]

Gleym wrote...

Uh, yeah they do, AlanC9. The first part of the game is 'gather the funds you need, by any means neccessary', which then allows you to proceed forward to the next part of the game, leading up until the Underdark chapter, where everything you do there is also relevant to the main quest: Hunting down Irenicus, through which there are several means towards that end.

So in the first part the sidequests are relevant in exactly the same way as the ME2 recruitment quests are, since you need to accomplish them to move forward with the main plot. Once you've acquired the necessary gold -- which happens after two of them, typically, they're relevant in the same way that the ME2 loyalty missions are, since they make you stronger for the endgame.

Fair enough. I'll concede that they're no less integrated with the main plot than the ME2 sidequests are.

Also, the issue with ME2 is not the fact that sidequests take up the bulk of the game, it's because the sidequests are treated as MAIN quests, in spite of not being so. The entire point of a sidequest is that it is an optional, non-vital quest. In BG2, not a single one of the sidequests is required to get a satisfactory ending or complete the main quests therein, or to advance the game (you can gather money, as I said, any way you want to in the first part of the game, even just stealing stuff and pawning it off), as opposed to in ME2, where it forces you to take the sidequests and penalizes you for not completing them in the way it wants you to.

You mean the recruitment missions, right? The loyalty missions are not forced. Well, you'll probably want to do at least a couple of them, so that makes them on the same level as ME2 sidequests

I don't care about this, and I'm not sure why you do. Can you explain? If the problem that the ME2 quests are too integrated, or not integrated enough, or what?

Modifié par AlanC9, 15 décembre 2010 - 07:59 .

[shivershepard]

it was a complete game!!!!!!!!!1

[shinobi602]

ME2, easily my GOTY.



Yup, said it.

[darth_lopez]

nelly21 wrote...

@ Darth Lopez

It isn't fact. You can't tell me that only 14 year olds enjoy CoD's story and expect me to take you seriously. You and I didn't enjoy the story. But look online at reviews and such and most of them say the story was top notch. Are they all retarded? No. They simply enjoy a different type of storyline than we do. I'm sure there are quite a few mature adults that look at a story about giant alien machines destroying the galaxy and think it's childish.

No in the video gaming world CODs lack of a decent story especially amongst the RPG player class is an undeniable and undesputable fact. The group that truly enjoys the stories demographically are console playing children. While i'm certain there are people who find the story of mass effect Childish they can't deny it's relatively well thought out. That thought is something that is obviously lacking with the COD series. It is In fact a bad story. I'm not arguing the maturity level of the series simply making statment about its fan base and the Fact that the Games story lines do suck(at least 4-BO).

and don't twist my words i enjoy the Multi - Player experience well enough however the story is unfortunately the weakest in the video game market. it's sad that presently games like COD are setting the bar because they've lowered it ten fold. Good View of this would be the Failure that is Alpha Protocol.

If you can honestly defend CODs story on the basis that "hey some people like it i don't but some do" you shouldn't be on an RPG forum. We RPG fans are supposed to appreciate story and hold it at the highest standard possible to prevent our games from becomign Alpha Protocol.

furthermore most company reviews when it comes to games like COD bump their rating up a bit so the publisher continues to allow them to review and they continue to make money. The COD series is more well known for it's Multi-Player than it's single player and it's reviews reflect that. furthermore Being top-notch for COD and being Top notch are 2 entirely diffrent thigns doesn't take much to beat out out Top-Notch for COD.

Secondly, the reason you don't see the Collectors all the time is because they aren't a common sight in the galaxy. The books and the games both established that seeing them is rare. Hell, Miranda wasn't entirely sure that it was a Collector she was seeing in the beginning of the game. So would it make more sense to you storywise to just have them running all around Omega, and Citadel space? No. It wouldn't because you are not an idiot.

I will point out that in Mass Effect 1 the Geth hadn't been seen outside th eperseus veil for 200 years and managed to ninja around everywhere. So yes i would expect a race more common than geth, as they've been seen throught ME's history in back alley dealings, to be more active and at least do something that makes them substantially more dangerous than what they were and at least show up more than 3 times in the game.

But seriously With the Logic you apply to the collectors The geth should've had a truly miniscule appearance in ME 1 by your opinion.

Lastly, I can understand the frustration with the REQUIREMENT to do side missions for the advancement of the story. But did you honestly not care more about this squad than your ME 1 squad? Did you not feel a little more nervous the first time you did the suicide mission and hoped you had done everything right? I did. The side quests were a big reason for that. If I hadn't seen Miranda's side story, I wouldn't have given a crap about her dying in the suicide mission. Suddenly, she became more than a femme fatale. Same with all of them. Bioware wanted the suicide mission to be nerve wracking, and the first time it was. That was because you didn't want your suad mates to die.

there were 3 things i was concerned about in my first play through Tali Garrus and Mordin. all of whom survived the others were expendable especially the geth given the nightmarish hell his species put us through in ME 1 i felt no more connected to Grunt, the amazing Emo Duo, and The Daddy didn't love me twins, Zaeed and Kasumi than i did to Ashley/ Kaiden in ME 1 They were compltely and totally expendable Legion grew on me and i was sad to see him go when he fell prey to the drones v.v but it was for the greater good and thanes death was meh some assassin cant go through a ventalation shaft and jimmy a door shut to save his life I was really freaked out Both times Garrus looked like he was going to die and that's about it.So No i felt no more connected to this squad than my last in fact i felt less connected because of minor things like lack of playful elevator banter. i actually fet more forced to work with a crew i didn't really like that much than connected to it.

I understand some of your points Darth, but don't confuse your dislike of the story for irefutable fact.

1) COD sucks that is a Fact and it is undisputable you can not defend by anymeans the story present there.
2) The Fact is that in the scope of ME 1 ME 2 was actually pretty weak and Used Side Quests as Many Story quests This is Wrong as only 4 of those side quests actually had anything relevant to do with the story of Mass Effect as a whole.
3) ME 1 showed a species not seen for 200 years on every major planet in the game and many minor ones.
4) there could've been more done with the collectors in light of point (3)

Those are facts and 75% of those facts out line major problems in ME 2

[shinobi602]

You can't say a story sucking is a fact. Sorry, but there are people in the world that disagree with you, for instance, me. I love the COD stories. That right there made your "fact" null and void. There is nothing "factual" about it.



I'm 22 years old, working on my bachelors in lasers/photonics engineering, and living on my own. Not some kid.

[pinskyyang]

I can somewhat agree, but still found ME2 to be hell of fun - Mass Effect 1 better though.

[Captain Iglo]

shinobi602 wrote...

You can't say a story sucking is a fact. Sorry, but there are people in the world that disagree with you, for instance, me. I love the COD stories. That right there made your "fact" null and void. There is nothing "factual" about it.

I'm 22 years old, working on my bachelors in lasers/photonics engineering, and living on my own. Not some kid.

same here...just replace "lasers/photonics engineering" with multimedia design

[darth_lopez]

shinobi602 wrote...

You can't say a story sucking is a fact. Sorry, but there are people in the world that disagree with you, for instance, me. I love the COD stories. That right there made your "fact" null and void. There is nothing "factual" about it.

I'm 22 years old, working on my bachelors in lasers/photonics engineering, and living on my own. Not some kid.

you sir are the exception that proves the rule

as is captain iglo

that or you both have terribly low standards

Modifié par darth_lopez, 15 décembre 2010 - 08:38 .

[JrayM16]

darth_lopez wrote...

We RPG fans are supposed to appreciate story and hold it at the highest standard possible to prevent our games from becomign Alpha Protocol.

And fans of other genres can't or don't appreciate story?

Stating as fact that the only people who like COD's story are console kids is such a sweeping and unfounded generalization that there isn't even a formal logical fallacy to codify this particular brand of anti-logic.

This quote is kinda elitist, sorry.

Edit: Exceptions don't prove rules.

"Does not agree with you" does not equal "terribly low standards"

Modifié par JrayM16, 15 décembre 2010 - 08:41 .

[shinobi602]

darth_lopez wrote...

you sir are the exception that proves the rule

as is captain iglo

that or you both have terribly low standards

Ook, and I can say that you're an "elitist". See, it's dumb isn't it? There's nothing wrong with Call of Duty. The games are very well made, the production quality is through the roof. The gunplay is responsive and feels good when you're playing, and the stories suck me in.

I'm not expecting a Tom Clancy novel here.

[darth_lopez]

JrayM16 wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

We RPG fans are supposed to appreciate story and hold it at the highest standard possible to prevent our games from becomign Alpha Protocol.

And fans of other genres can't or don't appreciate story?

Stating as fact that the only people who like COD's story are console kids is such a sweeping and unfounded generalization that there isn't even a formal logical fallacy to codify this particular brand of anti-logic.

This quote is kinda elitist, sorry.

Edit: Exceptions don't prove rules.

"Does not agree with you" does not equal "terribly low standards"

perhaps i should use the word the majority of.

No fans of other genres can appreciate story and should realize when the story they're playing is total ****. There's a difference between liking the Gameplay of COD and it's story I'm confident if the Cap'n and Jray took a step back and actually looked at the storylines presented to them by Inf. Ward. and TreArch they'd soon enough realize they aren't the best in any handbasket.  quite confident really. It took me a while to actually sit back and look at the problems of ME 2 and there are actually problems with it's story. Took me even longer to look at star wars and say hey this isn't all that great at some points as well.

But i stand by that either A) they are part of a limited group of exceptions that prove the rule AKA the minority or they ahve terribly low standards C) once they re-evaluate the games story, not gameplay, they would be most displeased i think.


edit:imma have to go look at the definition of elitist again but i'm pretty sure this doesn't qualify.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 15 décembre 2010 - 08:52 .

[nelly21]

@ Darth



Darth, there is a big difference between the Geth and the Collectors. The Geth were a known entity. There were books about them. Everyone knew what planet they controlled, what part of space they lived in. Where they came from. It's a big reason why people don't like the Quarians in this game.



The Collectors were unknown. Only a handful of people had interacted with them in history. No one knew where they lived, anything about their culture, etc. The only thing anyone knew was that a handful would come through the Omega 4 relay, make a trade and disappear for decades. Every ship that went through the relay failed to return. In short, until ME 2, nobody in the galaxy knew anything about the Collectors. Besides, the Geth were assisting an actual invasion, the Collectors were kindnapping humans on the edges of civilized space. BIG differences Darth.



I'm not going to argue the story thing with you anymore. If you want to hold on the "I hate it so it must suck" mentality, you go right ahead.



Lastly, what you refer to as "side quests" were a big reason behind these characters being as well liked as they are. But again, you can't get past your own opinions so why bother.

[JrayM16]

darth_lopez wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

We RPG fans are supposed to appreciate story and hold it at the highest standard possible to prevent our games from becomign Alpha Protocol.

And fans of other genres can't or don't appreciate story?

Stating as fact that the only people who like COD's story are console kids is such a sweeping and unfounded generalization that there isn't even a formal logical fallacy to codify this particular brand of anti-logic.

This quote is kinda elitist, sorry.

Edit: Exceptions don't prove rules.

"Does not agree with you" does not equal "terribly low standards"

perhaps i should use the word the majority of.

No fans of other genres can appreciate story and should realize when the story they're playing is total ****. There's a difference between liking the Gameplay of COD and it's story I'm confident if the Cap'n and Jray took a step back and actually looked at the storylines presented to them by Inf. Ward. and TreArch they'd soon enough realize they aren't the best in any handbasket.  quite confident really. It took me a while to actually sit back and look at the problems of ME 2 and there are actually problems with it's story. Took me even longer to look at star wars and say hey this isn't all that great at some points as well.

But i stand by that either A) they are part of a limited group of exceptions that prove the rule AKA the minority or they ahve terribly low standards C) once they re-evaluate the games story, not gameplay, they would be most displeased i think.


edit:imma have to go look at the definition of elitist again but i'm pretty sure this doesn't qualify.

I've actually never played COD. 

A) However, last I checked, there were billions of people on the planet and assuming anything generalization about any grouyp of them about any topic is never correct.  And again, exceptions don't prove rules, EVER.  Seriously.

 There are no standards with anything as subjective as a story, there are simply preferences.  There is no universal constant from which to judge a story.

C) That's not the point.  You've missed the forest for the trees.

Edit: The definition of elitist does not quite fit your post its true, but your attitude concerning the comparison between RPG stories and COD stories fits a certain kind of elitism, albeit not a truly bad one.

Modifié par JrayM16, 15 décembre 2010 - 09:02 .

[darth_lopez]

nelly21 wrote...

@ Darth

Darth, there is a big difference between the Geth and the Collectors. The Geth were a known entity. There were books about them. Everyone knew what planet they controlled, what part of space they lived in. Where they came from. It's a big reason why people don't like the Quarians in this game.

The Collectors were unknown. Only a handful of people had interacted with them in history. No one knew where they lived, anything about their culture, etc. The only thing anyone knew was that a handful would come through the Omega 4 relay, make a trade and disappear for decades. Every ship that went through the relay failed to return. In short, until ME 2, nobody in the galaxy knew anything about the Collectors. Besides, the Geth were assisting an actual invasion, the Collectors were kindnapping humans on the edges of civilized space. BIG differences Darth.

I fail to see how attacking a human colony with guns to steal a prothean artifcat and how attacking human colonies with advanced paralytica technology and kidnapping folks to be metled down is all that different when neither are seen. Nor how publication of information on the Geth in ME makes them more likely to reveal themselves outside the veil than the Collectors?

I get that the collectors are a total unknown what i fail to see is the difference between both acts of war...however i will say the former geth attack on eden prime could've been  attributed to pricacy more than the attacks on human colonies staged by collectors. So please do tell how all this works to affect why collectors weren't being used more in the story. when tehy obviously want shepard dead?

I'm not going to argue the story thing with you anymore. If you want to hold on the "I hate it so it must suck" mentality, you go right ahead.

Lastly, what you refer to as "side quests" were a big reason behind these characters being as well liked as they are. But again, you can't get past your own opinions so why bother.

I don't hate the game, and i certaintly don't hate COD, so i guess that means it doesn't suck? not the way it works. I like ME i like ME 2 i just hink the Story could use substantial imporvements. If you can refute anything other than the collectors by all means go ahead.

I do not like CODs stories i do like their gameplay and typically under heavy analysis CODs Story falls short of awe inspiring or even inspiring with out it's gunplay. granted it's Gunplay is the major reason anyone plays it- now that is an undisputable fact. but when ou look at the stories they do kinda suck at least cod 4 and up, unsure about WaW though.

[nelly21]

darth_lopez wrote...

I fail to see how attacking a human colony with guns to steal a prothean artifcat and how attacking human colonies with advanced paralytica technology and kidnapping folks to be metled down is all that different when neither are seen. Nor how publication of information on the Geth in ME makes them more likely to reveal themselves outside the veil than the Collectors?

I get that the collectors are a total unknown what i fail to see is the difference between both acts of war...however i will say the former geth attack on eden prime could've been  attributed to pricacy more than the attacks on human colonies staged by collectors. So please do tell how all this works to affect why collectors weren't being used more in the story. when tehy obviously want shepard dead?

I don't hate the game, and i certaintly don't hate COD, so i guess that means it doesn't suck? not the way it works. I like ME i like ME 2 i just hink the Story could use substantial imporvements. If you can refute anything other than the collectors by all means go ahead.

I do not like CODs stories i do like their gameplay and typically under heavy analysis CODs Story falls short of awe inspiring or even inspiring with out it's gunplay. granted it's Gunplay is the major reason anyone plays it- now that is an undisputable fact. but when ou look at the stories they do kinda suck at least cod 4 and up, unsure about WaW though.

You really can't see how attacking an established ALLIANCE COLONY in CITADEL SPACE is different from attacking a NONAFFILIATED colony in NON-COUNCIL SPACE? Really?

And the attack on Eden Prime could've been attributed to piracy? Forget what I said to the op. Please, for the love of God, do not write down your ideas for what the story should have been.

[Remus Artega]

Alamar2078 wrote...

I may have agreed initially but I've got a feeling that if ME2 sees more DLC like Lair of the Shadow Broker and more "bridging" DLC then the whole body of work WILL be complete.

And here is the main problem...that DLC showed that ME2 could have been done better if done by someone else...

[FRSHPRNFILL]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I agree, but this topic has been discussed to the ****ter. This thread, like most other threads regarding this kind of thing; will start of with a bunch of people agreeing, then a bunch disagreeing, then an argument about why ME1/ME2 is better than the other.

Just my psychic powers at work.

He was right! He can tell the future!


In other words, middle of a trilogy isn't going to be the best of the three in story.

[AlanC9]

nelly21 wrote...
And the attack on Eden Prime could've been attributed to piracy? Forget what I said to the op. Please, for the love of God, do not write down your ideas for what the story should have been.

You sure? Sounds to me like it'd be comedy gold

[darth_lopez]

nelly21 wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

I fail to see how attacking a human colony with guns to steal a prothean artifcat and how attacking human colonies with advanced paralytica technology and kidnapping folks to be metled down is all that different when neither are seen. Nor how publication of information on the Geth in ME makes them more likely to reveal themselves outside the veil than the Collectors?

I get that the collectors are a total unknown what i fail to see is the difference between both acts of war...however i will say the former geth attack on eden prime could've been  attributed to pricacy more than the attacks on human colonies staged by collectors. So please do tell how all this works to affect why collectors weren't being used more in the story. when tehy obviously want shepard dead?

I don't hate the game, and i certaintly don't hate COD, so i guess that means it doesn't suck? not the way it works. I like ME i like ME 2 i just hink the Story could use substantial imporvements. If you can refute anything other than the collectors by all means go ahead.

I do not like CODs stories i do like their gameplay and typically under heavy analysis CODs Story falls short of awe inspiring or even inspiring with out it's gunplay. granted it's Gunplay is the major reason anyone plays it- now that is an undisputable fact. but when ou look at the stories they do kinda suck at least cod 4 and up, unsure about WaW though.

You really can't see how attacking an established ALLIANCE COLONY in CITADEL SPACE is different from attacking a NONAFFILIATED colony in NON-COUNCIL SPACE? Really?

And the attack on Eden Prime could've been attributed to piracy? Forget what I said to the op. Please, for the love of God, do not write down your ideas for what the story should have been.

An alliance colony in citadel space you'd be refrencing Eden Prime. Now
what's the Difference between Eden Prime and say......damn i forgot it's
name the Colony With Kaiden/Ashley stationed? The only difference is
it's not in Citadel Space. It's still an Act of War Against the Systems
Alliance. So please How are the 2 different? infact i find the
dissapearance of several Systems Alliance Colonies outside Citadel Space
to be far more troubling than the One attack on Eden Prime, a direct
result of the advanced technology harbored there. In Fact Eden Prime can
be viewed directly as a geth raid, still an act of war much like the
Collector Raids.

So i don't see how a Systems Alliance Colony in
Citadel Space differes from a Systems Alliance Colony outside Citadel
space, espcially given the Fact that the Systems Alliance is now a
Ranking Council member. IT Directly intefers with the Interests of the
Citadel Council Species.


I still
don't see how this affects the amount or frequency of collectors we
encounter given through out most of ME 2 We,
Shepard, Travel primarily outside Citadel space. So Please again answer my question 
You have yet to difinateivley Explain to me Why it is more Acceptable to show less of the Collectors (who are the primary oposition of #2) than of the Geth Primary opposition of number 1


Edit: i think i got very very far off of my original point >> and i should really stop trying to argue when half asleep @.@

Modifié par darth_lopez, 16 décembre 2010 - 12:01 .

[Skilled Seeker]

Aigyl wrote...

I don't think ME2 was ever trying to have a better main story than ME1. ME2 introduced new characters, fleshed out and expanded on the setting, and put events in motion for ME3 (Quarians vs. Geth, Genophage, EDI, etc.). In that aspect I think ME2's storytelling was excellent.

Exactly, so many people fail to see this. ME2's story will only be appreciated once the trilogy has drawn to a close I'm afraid.

[sumoaltus]

Here's the thing, that was the real challenge when writing this second installment of Mass Effect. Drew and the rest of the scribes at Bioware were trying to create a story to fill in between 1 and 3.

ME 1: Foil Saren's - in reality Soverign's - plans to gain back door access to the citadel, and completely annihilate all of human and alien kind.

ME 2: After your death from the Reaper's garbage men - The Collectors - Reassemble some of your old team, and a few other new specialists to wipe out the collectors and establish a name and dominance within the galaxy - regardless of how you prepare and your morality - and the galactic community.

ME 3: Utilize your entire - or what's left of it - team to stop The Reaper's vicious cycle once and for all.

To me it seems as if ME2's middle ground story is the most complex of the three. Obviously we know very little about what is in store for the world of ME in this next installment. The team needed to somehow bridge the story from 1 to 2, while leaving it open enough for it to lead into 3 correctly, and at the same momentum.

I think they did a fine job on ME2 and whoever doesn't think so, really didn't think the game through properly.

Modifié par sumoaltus, 15 décembre 2010 - 11:53 .

[SSV Enterprise]

darth_lopez wrote...

and don't twist my words i enjoy the Multi - Player experience well enough however the story is unfortunately the weakest in the video game market. it's sad that presently games like COD are setting the bar because they've lowered it ten fold. Good View of this would be the Failure that is Alpha Protocol.

If you can honestly defend CODs story on the basis that "hey some people like it i don't but some do" you shouldn't be on an RPG forum. We RPG fans are supposed to appreciate story and hold it at the highest standard possible to prevent our games from becomign Alpha Protocol.

Pardon me, but I actually found the story in Alpha Protocol to be very good.  The plot was intriguing, the writing was decent, the conversation system was fluid, there were some really good characters (Sis, Steven Heck, and Conrad Marburg in particular), and the series of events was mind-bogglingly variable.  It far exceeded both Mass Effect games in that last regard (though I'm hoping ME3 will tie it all together and blow AP away).

Alpha Protocol's problems were graphics, bugs, level design, and the stealth mechanic, and they were indeed serious problems.  However, they had nothing to do with the story.  In fact, the  BioWare devs could learn a few things by how the guys at Obsidian Entertainment injected variability into the story.

Modifié par SSV Enterprise, 16 décembre 2010 - 05:30 .