32 réponses à ce sujet

[PauseforEffect]

If this is a duplicate topic, I apologize but I can't help but wonder if there's any tweaking that can be done to the Vanguard class on Hardcore & Insanity levels. What could make this class more flexible without disrupting the power balance between classes on higher settings?

[ryoldschool]

In this current thread, http://social.biowar...1/index/5446074, folks are saying that because shockwave is weak on hardcore/insanity it makes vanguard one-trick-pony. Lots of discussion there.

[TexasToast712]

PrimalEden wrote...

If this is a duplicate topic, I apologize but I can't help but wonder if there's any tweaking that can be done to the Vanguard class on Hardcore & Insanity levels. What could make this class more flexible without disrupting the power balance between classes on higher settings?

I would post my build for you that works wonders for me but It seems to aggravate people when I do. lol

[PauseforEffect]

Thank you, will keep an eye out.

[Praetor Knight]

The soldier class is the one-trick pony without any BP. The Vanguard is far from a one trick pony, its just that the one particular trick is so good.



@ TexasToast712, go ahead and post your build it is relevant to the OP's question. It's just that Shockwave is generally considered less effective on the Insanity difficulty, it still has its uses.

[Kronner]

What do you mean one trick pony? As in Charge...and that's it?

You can also set up Warp bombs by taking Slam/Reave/Energy Drain or just using Pull. Every class uses the signature power all the time. But perhaps Soldier, Vanguard and maybe Sentinel classes have their class power so powerful that anything else is redundant. Engineers and Adept definitely use more powers on average I think. Infiltrators can be played in a number of ways as well.

[TexasToast712]

---Powers

Heavy Charge
Heavy Shockwave*
Heavy Pull *
Destroyer
Heavy Warp Ammo

---Weapons
Geth Plasma Shotgun
Mattock Heavy Rifle
Phalanx Pistol
Locust

* Mainly for the LuLz or Husks when armor is dropped although it works wonders with a Warp Bomber in your squad and when you shoot a floating target with warp ammo they get shredded. Feel free to swap these for others if you like. I just never see the benefit of Cryo ammo and I dont like my targets dancing around cause they are on fire from incendiary ammo. ALTHOUGH Incendiary ammo on the Mattock makes 90% of the shots do the Inferno explosion if you upgrade it to inferno.

[Gravbh]

I see where you're coming from OP. I've tried to make a more biotic focused vanguard rather than a pure charger. I always end up just going back to my adept though.

Here's a build that I had fun with.

4-inferno ammo
4-heavy charge
4-heavy shockwave
4-pull-field
4-champion
1-stasis

This build gives you 3 active biotic abilities to use. You could take points from pull and move them into stasis if so desired. Maxing slam and 1 point in pull can be a fun option. Heavy slam on a pulled/frozen target works. There is always the option of reave, but I feel that ability makes things too easy. I try to keep my bonus abilities in character as well, i.e. no tech bonuses on a biotic character. These choices fit with that philosophy.

Shockwave usually sucks on insanity but it can be fun to aim a pull low so the target stays close to the ground, then hit it with a max rank shockwave. Heavy shockwave is also fun if you bring Mordin along with you and use area cryo-blast.

Modifié par Gravbh, 16 décembre 2010 - 05:19 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

TexasToast712 wrote...

---Powers

Heavy Charge
Heavy Shockwave*
Heavy Pull *
Destroyer
Heavy Warp Ammo

---Weapons
Geth Plasma Shotgun
Mattock Heavy Rifle
Phalanx Pistol
Locust

* Mainly for the LuLz or Husks when armor is dropped although it works wonders with a Warp Bomber in your squad and when you shoot a floating target with warp ammo they get shredded. Feel free to swap these for others if you like. I just never see the benefit of Cryo ammo and I dont like my targets dancing around cause they are on fire from incendiary ammo. ALTHOUGH Incendiary ammo on the Mattock makes 90% of the shots do the Inferno explosion if you upgrade it to inferno.

Honestly, the thing that bothers me the most about this build is your choice of destroyer over champion. Imho, the power recharge bonus is better than the weapon damage bonus so you can charge more often and keep your shields up. Also, I haven't tested this, but if the weapon damage boost does not save you any shots on the enemy it is worthless; having a power ready a split second earlier, however, will let you charge to regain shields and possibly save your life. As far as shockwave goes, I do both insanity and non-insanity runs. It's fun for runs on lower levels (husk demolisher) but absolutely worthless on insanity.

[Ahglock]

I think what makes the vanguard a one trick pony is the aggressive play style with charge. You charge, okay now you are out in the open maybe close enough to cover maybe not, your shields are down your cool downs are up, well you charge because you need shields and it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy . I suspect on lower difficulties your shields don't pop as fast so when out on the open you feel more free to use other powers and shockwave actually does something.



Right now I am going

2 inferno

4 squad cryo

4 heavy charge

2 shockwave

4 area pull

4 champion

2 stasis(I find the extra second helps more often than the marginal damage increase in inferno ammo to 3, and unless I am going against armor I'm staying with the cryo anyways)



I'm trying to work in warp bombs into my initial no powered charge.



Samara Area Reave, or Tali area drain, or Mordin area flame

Me area pull.

Miranda warp bomb



Though just as effective is samara/Tali Defense strip

Mordin Cryo

Me clean up.

The ridiculously short cool down on pull lets me cover space on foot and if it goes to crap still get a powered charge off. If it went well I'm about where I would be with the initial charge but multiple targets are down and my cool down is up quicker for defense or offensive charging. It is adding some versatility to my fights, but I have trouble pulling off all these awesome quick combo moves everyone else does in the videos.

[Ahglock]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...


Honestly, the thing that bothers me the most about this build is your choice of destroyer over champion. Imho, the power recharge bonus is better than the weapon damage bonus so you can charge more often and keep your shields up. Also, I haven't tested this, but if the weapon damage boost does not save you any shots on the enemy it is worthless; having a power ready a split second earlier, however, will let you charge to regain shields and possibly save your life. As far as shockwave goes, I do both insanity and non-insanity runs. It's fun for runs on lower levels (husk demolisher) but absolutely worthless on insanity.

It mgiht be saving shots since he went with the mattock though.  With the claymore or other one shot kill playstyles I expect it would help only against the heavies like blue suns centuirians but a damage boost might be aweosme with the mattock. 

[Simbacca]

 Personally I've found this build to be the most versatile Vanguard I've played through Insanity without losing optimization:

4 Inferno Ammo / 4 Squad Cryo Ammo / 4 Heavy Charge / 2 Shockwave / 1 Pull / 4 Champion / 3 Stasis
Uses Scimitar or Eviscerator (depending on mission/mood) alongside the Mattock

As I was just saying in the Eviscerator vs Scimitar for Vanguards thread, there's more ways to diversify gameplay than just what cast-able powers to use.  My Vanguard does indeed Charge most of the time (and it is so fun I really don't mind at all) and I do mix it up with appropriate Pulls and the occasional Stasis, but how I mix it up is with the weapons and ammo powers.  Depending on what I will face the next mission and what squadmates I want to bring, I use the Eviscerator with Squad Cryo and the Mattock with Inferno, or I may use the Scimitar with Inferno and the Mattock with Squad Cryo, or any other combo of those weapons and ammo powers.  

Sometimes it's fun Charging a trooper and freezing him with an Evi blast, strafing around his now frozen body as makeshift cover readying my next attack, melee to shatter and Charge the next victim.  Other times it's fun Charging and unleashing a hail of Inferno pellets from my Scimitar, mashing the trigger as fast as I can to keep the victim and his nearby buddies dancing from the flames.  And still other times it's fun stripping and freezing a target at mid-range with rapid-fire Mattock shots, then shattering that frozen enemy with Heavy Charge or Pulling the foe and switching to my shotgun, finishing the mook as he floats by.

[ryoldschool]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Honestly, the thing that bothers me the most about this build is your choice of destroyer over champion. Imho, the power recharge bonus is better than the weapon damage bonus so you can charge more often and keep your shields up. Also, I haven't tested this, but if the weapon damage boost does not save you any shots on the enemy it is worthless; having a power ready a split second earlier, however, will let you charge to regain shields and possibly save your life. As far as shockwave goes, I do both insanity and non-insanity runs. It's fun for runs on lower levels (husk demolisher) but absolutely worthless on insanity.

I went with destroyer to get the extra weapon damage for the cryo effect ( see cryoguard thread ).  The easier it is to start freezing the better.  I've played both champion and destroyer and destroyer works better ( both insanity ) with that strategy.  I also used Miranda with the 15% weapon damage.

[Praetor Knight]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Honestly, the thing that bothers me the most about this build is your choice of destroyer over champion. Imho, the power recharge bonus is better than the weapon damage bonus so you can charge more often and keep your shields up.

I could easily be wrong, but I thought Charge does not get a cooldown bonus from that either.

I remember the biotic cooldown research has no effect, but what about Champion?

Boy, I can't remember, I'm still a low level with my Vanguard, so only leveled up Heavy Charge all the way so far.

[Kronner]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Honestly, the thing that bothers me the most about this build is your choice of destroyer over champion. Imho, the power recharge bonus is better than the weapon damage bonus so you can charge more often and keep your shields up.

I could easily be wrong, but I thought Charge does not get a cooldown bonus from that either.

I remember the biotic cooldown research has no effect, but what about Champion?

Boy, I can't remember, I'm still a low level with my Vanguard, so only leveled up Heavy Charge all the way so far.

Assault Mastery (Destroyer/Champion) is the only thing that reduces CD time for Charge.
Destroyer - Charge has ~5.2s CD time
Champion - ~4.9s CD time

(measured with FRAPS)

Modifié par Kronner, 16 décembre 2010 - 07:53 .

[Praetor Knight]

Cool, thanks!

[thisisme8]

Painseeker build is not for the faint of heart....

Nor is it a one trick pony.

[PauseforEffect]

A lot of good suggestions I see. Will always stubbornly favor the Vanguard class, and am glad to see others do as well

[Zahe]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

The soldier class is the
one-trick pony without any BP. The Vanguard is far from a one trick
pony, its just that the one particular trick is so good.

I have to disagree that the Soldier is a one-trick pony. While it lacks biotic and tech powers the versatility in weapon choices redeem that, especially coupled with the flexibility of adrenaline rush.

With that said, I don't really think Vanguard is as gimmicky as a lot of people seem to believe. Some people choose to play the class using only charge and blasting stuff with the shotgun, others can use the class in a more diverse way (setting up biotic combos and the like). As with so much else, the class is what you make it to be. No more, no less.

Modifié par Zahe, 18 décembre 2010 - 06:22 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Zahe wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

The soldier class is the one-trick pony without any BP. The Vanguard is far from a one trick pony, its just that the one particular trick is so good.

I have to disagree that the Soldier is a one-trick pony. While it lacks biotic and tech powers the versatility in weapon choices redeem that, especially coupled with the flexibility of adrenaline rush.

Soldiers have only one trick on their sleeves - AR - a very flexible and powerful trick but it's the only one they need/use, thus a one-trick pony.

With that said, I don't really think Vanguard is as gimmicky as a lot of people seem to believe. Some people choose to play the class using only charge and blasting stuff with the shotgun, others can use the class in a more diverse way (setting up biotic combos and the like). As with so much else, the class is what you make it to be. No more, no less.

Vanguards are supposed to honor their name - Vanguard can cast biotics but are not really good at it, play Adept if thats your thing imho.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 18 décembre 2010 - 07:08 .

[Ahglock]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Vanguards are supposed to honor their name - Vanguard can cast biotics but are not really good at it, play Adept if thats your thing imho.

It is all about adepts IMO.  It is the only class I play repeatedly, but vanguard is a decent second choice they do get pull which despite not being lift is probably my faovirte biotic power after singularity. 

[Praetor Knight]

Zahe wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

The soldier class is the one-trick pony without any BP. The Vanguard is far from a one trick pony, its just that the one particular trick is so good.

I have to disagree that the Soldier is a one-trick pony. While it lacks biotic and tech powers the versatility in weapon choices redeem that, especially coupled with the flexibility of adrenaline rush.

I see what you mean, but for me, the soldier spams AR and then needs ammo powers for any CC ability, so in many cases it's better to just kill enemies faster then to try to control the battlefield.

The weapons make the one trick versatile, and gives the Soldier flexibility like you say, but Concussive Shot and most BP's get in the way of AR, so that's why I mentioned that the Soldier is a one-trick pony compared to the Vanguard. I've had fun pulling enemies close and then charging them as they try to stand up, just have to wait for the cooldowns.

And with only one active power, at least on the 360, there is less need to open the power wheel, and when you do that's mostly to switch between weapons. Its been my favored class, but Sentinel and Vanguard have been fun too.

Nevertheless, describing the soldier class this way is like splitting hairs, it's fun to use and can fight at any range regardless of how the class is described.

[Zahe]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Soldiers have only one trick on their sleeves - AR - a very flexible and powerful trick but it's the only one they need/use, thus a one-trick pony.

Depends on how you define trick. Personally, I think anyone with a flexible playstyle isn't a one-trick pony. Soldier lack active abilities, but due to how incredibly versatile both their weapon choices and their key ability is I've never percieved them as such.
If you think someone with a few active abilities in his toolbox is a one-trick pony, then yes soldiers fit your description nicely. However you have to keep in mind that having one ability that is generally useful in a lot of situations is less confining then having several that can only be used effectively in a strict context.

Bozorgmehr wrote...
Vanguards are supposed to honor their name - Vanguard can cast biotics but are not really good at it, play Adept if thats your thing imho.

There is a difference between spamming biotics and using it in the right situation. I could just as easily say that if you want to just shoot things, play a soldier.
Once again, the class is often only as confining as you make it out to be.

Nevertheless, describing the soldier class this way is like
splitting hairs, it's fun to use and can fight at any range regardless
of how the class is described. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

Yes I agree, how you define it is all about perception.

Modifié par Zahe, 19 décembre 2010 - 04:06 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Zahe wrote...

Depends on how you define trick. Personally, I think anyone with a flexible playstyle isn't a one-trick pony. Soldier lack active abilities, but due to how incredibly versatile both their weapon choices and their key ability is I've never percieved them as such.

Being one-trick (AR) ponies doesn't mean Soldiers lack versatility or flexibility; AR is the best (most overpowered) ability in ME2 and although Soldiers can fight in different ways (long-range sniping; mid-range AR spraying; close-range shotgunning etc) they will use the same power (trick) over and over again to increase their fighting potential.

If you think someone with a few active abilities in his toolbox is a one-trick pony, then yes soldiers fit your description nicely. However you have to keep in mind that having one ability that is generally useful in a lot of situations is less confining then having several that can only be used effectively in a strict context.

Indeed. That's one of the great strengths of the Soldier; AR is an ability that doesn't directly affect enemies - it boosts Shep skills instead (easy aiming, increased damage, less damage taken, increased manouverablity etc). Thus can be used in every situation unlike most tech/biotic powers which are only effective against certain enemies and/or defenses. But at the end of the day, Soldier will use AR, and AR only hence they're labeled 'One-Trick Ponies'.

Don't get the wrong idea, I'm not bashing Soldiers or other one-trick depended classes. AR is awesome power and so is Charge. Problem is that those classes don't have much (if any) room to mix it up with other powers - in (almost) all circumstances AR and/or Charge are a Soldier/Vanguard's best bet. You can add Assault Sentinels to the OTP list as well, played aggressively AA Sentinels will be spamming Tech Armor, leaving little room to use Sentinel's other powers.

There is a difference between spamming biotics and using it in the right situation. I could just as easily say that if you want to just shoot things, play a soldier.

ME2 is a shooter,  your argument would make all non-soldier classes redundant

No matter which class you're playing, you will have to shoot stuff. Question is: what does one prefer? If shooting and only shooting is your thing > Soldier it is. If one likes to mix shooting and power usage > other classes can/will provide.

Don't forget Vanguards and Infiltrators can use the same number of weapon types after DCS (they can't have the unique weapon if they pick weapon training, Soldiers always get one); all non-combat classes will end up only one weapon short. Soldiers' power isn't weapon selection, it's AR:
A Mattock Adept is deadly, but a Soldier (in AR) using the Mattock ain't fun anymore

Once again, the class is often only as confining as you make it out to be.

That's one of the great things about ME2, altough BW reduced the number of powers; they can be used in lots of cool yet effective ways - even today people post new builds / strategies here at the classes, Strategy and Builds Forum.

Bless 'm :innocent:

[The Spamming Troll]

enemy protections suck. ive found a decent way of challenging myself and having that fun i had in ME1 with my biotics. i play on veteran but i dont upgrade my health or my weapons. tho ive played that alot now and im starting to play with ease. its impossible to save harcore/insanity unless you can mod your game.