77 réponses à ce sujet

[Locutus_of_BORG]

I played my Vanguard with mostly the Scim, as that's my favorite for the other classes... But lately I've been finding that my Heavy Charge throws mooks too far, and b/c of that I've begun finding that I can usually do with 1 shot of the Evi the same as what I'd normally need 2-3 shots of the Scim to do. So now I'm running the Evi.

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Nothing replaces skill.

Infinite Ammo for the M920-Cain!?

Get Fortack on it

Also needs a rapid-fire function... you know, for teh sheites & giggles.

[AntiChri5]

Elbows?

Shotgun!

[Cra5y Pineapple]

Trick question. The Claymore.

[sinosleep]

The shotguns are incredibly well balanced, try them all and choose which ever one feels best.

[Simbacca]

On my first insanity Vanguard playthrough, I tried all the shotguns (not counting the then unreleased non-shotgun) but only like the Eviscerator.  I loved how one-shot with Inferno Ammo plus one melee would kill just about any standard trooper.  I also loved the increased accuracy range of the Evi for shooting the occasional unprotected mook that Charge sent flying (usually try to charge those that still have at least a sliver of defense).  

On my current insanity Vanguard playthrough, I wanted give the Scimitar and the Claymore another chance to win me over, as well as mix it up between using Cryo Ammo and Inferno Ammo.  I had fun with the Claymore for a little bit, even almost got the hang of the reload trick on the 360, but eventually I reloaded the DCS save and took something else.  I just like the Evi and Scimitar more.  As for the Scimitar, perhaps it is because my ability at this game has improved since the other Vanguard run, it is now my favorite Vanguard shotty.  The Scimitar plus Inferno Ammo is an unrelenting wave of fire induced panic, a storm of pellets that tear fleshes to pieces.  I did discover love for the Evi in a new way this time, with Cryo Ammo, but the Scimitar with Inferno is without a doubt in my mind the most damaging way to go.  The increased clip size and high rate of fire combined with Inferno's AoE panic handles how groups of enemies faster and easier than the more solitary target focused Evi and Claymore.

To summerize:

Eviscerator with Inferno Ammo
Kills most standard organic troopers in one shot plus melee.  Therefore, you can usually kill 2 mooks with one clip (3 rounds, but Charge only puts you right up against one enemy, though next two shots are probably close but not point blank).  The increase range and one-shot damage of the Evi also makes it easier to kill unprotected enemies that get sent flying by Charge.  The typical attack pattern is Charge - Shoot - Melee - Shoot - Melee - Shoot - Reload or Charge

Eviscerator with Cryo Ammo
Freezes most standard troopers, synthetic or organic, in one shot.  Kills with the following melee if you so choose or strafe around the new frozen statue as impromptu cover.  Melee when to shatter the helpless trooper serving as your cover and Charge something else.  Also Heavy Charge often shatters frozen enemies, which can save precious Evi rounds if needed.  

Scimitar with Cryo Ammo
ScroguBlitzen makes awesome use of this combo, but with Cryo I prefer the Evi, with the Scimitar I prefer Inferno.  Scimitar, when fully utilizing its high fate of fire, is great at quickly stripping barriers and shields while freezing the enemy with that last defense removing shot.  Still, Inferno controls for 3 seconds in an AoE, Cryo controls for 5 on a lone target.  I'd rather make use of the Scimitar's fire rate to re-apply that mass Inferno panic, make use of Cryo's longer single target control on the Evi where you have to insert melees in between shots.

Scimitar with Inferno Ammo
Kills most standard organic troopers in a few shots, which happens very quickly if you are spamming the trigger (or mouse button).  The rapid fire of the Scimitar keeps the Inferno proccing, which decimates your target with that additional fire damage while keeping the 3 sec AoE enemy burn panic going.  The Scimitar doesn't have the range of the Evi, but Vanguard's don't need range... they have Charge.  The typical attack pattern is Charge - Shoot - Shoot - Shoot - Melee (if you want since it will finish the now burning enemy and save a round) - Shoot - Shoot - Shoot - Shoot - Shoot - Reload - Melee or Charge


Those are my experiences and opinions only.  YMMV


And besides you don't have to figure which is best and stick with it all game.  I'll pick any of the above four combinations depending on what I'll be facing the next mission and what squadmates I want to bring.  Which every combo I pick, I will then usually have the other ammo type set on my Mattock for that mission.  This is how I've brought more versatility to the supposed one-trick pony class (remember castable powers are not the only way to add gameplay diversity, remember the Vanguard is half Soldier).

Modifié par Simbacca, 16 décembre 2010 - 05:55 .

[Omega-202]

Why choose only 1? I don't think I've ever done a full playthrough without swapping my loadout over and over depending on the mission.

I personally find that the Eviscerator works amazingly on Blood Pack missions but I find it lacking on Geth missions where I think that the Scimitar w/Cryo does better. For missions where I know close range combat is going to be limited, I swap out for the GPS.

Similarly for the Tempest/Locust. If I know there's big, slow shielded enemies, I go Tempest but if I know I'm going to need something to drop minions at range I go with the Locust.

It makes each mission feel different, even if the overall utility gained from one weapon to the other is minimal. Plus it makes it so I don't feel like I'm at a disadvantage when I haven't unlocked certain weapons yet, as I've gotten the feel for all of the pistols, shotties, SMGs and long rifles. Still don't have any play time with the Rev or GPR.

[RiouHotaru]

Thanks for the opinions. I also feel 'meh' on the Claymore. I find that the timing for the reload trick is off, and much like the Widow, the Claymore feels like overkill, even on Hardcore.



Also, I plan to take SR training for the Viper's superior Armor-destroying skills. Arnold and the Thresher Maw were a pain.

[Omega-202]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Thanks for the opinions. I also feel 'meh' on the Claymore. I find that the timing for the reload trick is off, and much like the Widow, the Claymore feels like overkill, even on Hardcore.

Also, I plan to take SR training for the Viper's superior Armor-destroying skills. Arnold and the Thresher Maw were a pain.

Honestly, I have never had an easy time using the Viper on the H-Reaper.  When he's jostling around, the scope is the biggest pain in the butt to deal with.  Sure you can take off huge chunks when he's sitting still for like a half a second, but otherwise I just get dizzy trying to track his eyes through the scope.  And the Thresher is easy enough as long as you find the solid covers and keep moving.  Most of the time I just use the Carnifex + Reave because I like to use Grunt w/Fort on the Collector Ship.

In all other scenarios, the Viper is amazing.  

[RiouHotaru]

Well, I was using the Mattock, and found that that I wished I had the Viper, mostly because I primarily play an Infiltraitor. So I'm use to the H-Reaper's jostling about. Bit of my sniper's mentality leaking over to the Vanguard.



Carnifax huh? I prefer the Phalanx pre-Collector Ship because the laser sight gives me a quasi-sniper rifle.

[tonnactus]

You have far more room for error with the scimitar.And its the better shotgun against shielded enemies.

[ScroguBlitzen]

Best advice so far seems to be to take the Scimitar vs Blue Suns and the Eviscerator vs Blood Pack.
The Viper is excellent backup for any situation.

Here are couple different ways to use a weapon with a Vanguard:

1. Charge/Kill: Charge a target with defense so he doesn't fly then shotgun him.
2. Charge/Freeze: Charge a target then freeze him to use as cover.
3. Strip/Charge: Shoot a target to strip defenses then charge him so he does fly.
4. Break/Charge: Shoot enemy from range till your shield breaks then charge them.

The Claymore kills almost everything with one shot and is not effective from range due to its reload speed so you can really only do technique 1. The Eviscerator is good for technique 1 or 2. Even though it can hit things from range, the fact that it only has 3 ammo means you won't want to shoot from range and then charge in with no shots available. The Scimitar is fairly effective with all 4 techniques. A backup Viper or Assault Rifle is even more effective for techniques 3 and 4 though.

Most of this just applies with my playstyle where I don't like spending much time in cover, and I don't like using Warp-Bombs (since it limits your party choice and is pretty much the most effective technique for every class... not challenging)

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 16 décembre 2010 - 08:30 .

[Kronner]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

Best advice so far seems to be to take the Scimitar vs Blue Suns and the Eviscerator vs Blood Pack.
The Viper is excellent backup for any situation.

Here are couple different ways to use a weapon with a Vanguard:

1. Charge/Kill: Charge a target with defense so he doesn't fly then shotgun him.
2. Charge/Freeze: Charge a target then freeze him to use as cover.
3. Strip/Charge: Shoot a target to strip defenses then charge him so he does fly.
4. Break/Charge: Shoot enemy from range till your shield breaks then charge them.

The Claymore kills almost everything with one shot and is not effective from range due to its reload speed so you can really only do technique 1. The Eviscerator is good for technique 1 or 2. Even though it can hit things from range, the fact that it only has 3 ammo means you won't want to shoot from range and then charge in with no shots available. The Scimitar is fairly effective with all 4 techniques. A backup Viper or Assault Rifle is even more effective for techniques 3 and 4 though.

Most of this just applies with my playstyle where I don't like spending much time in cover, and I don't like using Warp-Bombs (since it limits your party choice and is pretty much the most effective technique for every class... not challenging)

Funny, I can do Point 3 easily with the Claymore, I just don't bother since I can go in and kill it very easily.
Point 4 can be done as well.
Point 2 is just personal preference, some prefer killing over freezing. If you kill fast enough, you don't need artifical cover. Evi is the same.

Also, how is Evi worse than Scimitar against shielded enemies?

Modifié par Kronner, 16 décembre 2010 - 08:43 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

Kronner wrote...

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

Best advice so far seems to be to take the Scimitar vs Blue Suns and the Eviscerator vs Blood Pack.
The Viper is excellent backup for any situation.

Here are couple different ways to use a weapon with a Vanguard:

1. Charge/Kill: Charge a target with defense so he doesn't fly then shotgun him.
2. Charge/Freeze: Charge a target then freeze him to use as cover.
3. Strip/Charge: Shoot a target to strip defenses then charge him so he does fly.
4. Break/Charge: Shoot enemy from range till your shield breaks then charge them.

The Claymore kills almost everything with one shot and is not effective from range due to its reload speed so you can really only do technique 1. The Eviscerator is good for technique 1 or 2. Even though it can hit things from range, the fact that it only has 3 ammo means you won't want to shoot from range and then charge in with no shots available. The Scimitar is fairly effective with all 4 techniques. A backup Viper or Assault Rifle is even more effective for techniques 3 and 4 though.

Most of this just applies with my playstyle where I don't like spending much time in cover, and I don't like using Warp-Bombs (since it limits your party choice and is pretty much the most effective technique for every class... not challenging)

Funny, I can do Point 3 easily with the Claymore, I just don't bother since I can go in and kill it very easily.
Point 4 can be done as well.
Point 2 is just personal preference, some prefer killing over freezing. If you kill fast enough, you don't need artifical cover. Evi is the same.

Also, how is Evi worse than Scimitar against shielded enemies?

The point is that there is only one effective technique with the Claymore.  Granted that it IS extremely effective, but it's extremely repetitive to me.  And it isn't really all that hard to put a shotgun to a mobs head or torso during heavy charge time dilation and blow him away. (Talking about my experience here, not taking away from your sick skills with the Vanguard.)

The Scimitar/Freezing technique is not really about power though or speed of killing.  Inferno Ammo is the king of speed killing.  For me, I was interested in finding a way to be able to charge arbitrarily large groups of enemies without relying on warp-bombs and without having to dock into cover every few seconds.

Watching you blast mobs away with the Claymore is pretty sweet though.  I might get more into it myself if not for the reload trick.

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 16 décembre 2010 - 09:09 .

[Kronner]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...


The point is that there is only one effective technique with the Claymore.  Granted that it IS extremely effective, but it's extremely repetitive to me.  And it isn't really all that hard to put a shotgun to a mobs head or torso during heavy charge time dilation and blow him away. (Talking about my experience here, not taking away from your sick skills with the Vanguard.)

The Scimitar/Freezing technique is not really about power though or speed of killing.  Inferno Ammo is the king of speed killing.  For me, I was interested in finding a way to be able to charge arbitrarily large groups of enemies without relying on warp-bombs and without having to dock into cover every few seconds.

Watching you blast mobs away with the Claymore is pretty sweet though.  I might get more into it myself if not for the reload trick.

I'll show you Point 3 with the Claymore when I get back home sometime next week, it is actually pretty easy to do, I have found out that from certain range Claymore completly strips regular defense and then you just reload-Charge at the same time. But I am addicted to 1S1K to use that very often.

As for the Cryo, Inferno should work extremely well with Scimitar against organic groups without need for cover as well. Actually, Scimitar should be the most effective Inferno dealer. But from my experience any shotgun + Inferno ammo pretty much guarantees setting enemies on fire very quickly making them easy targets. (err just noticed you probably don't use inferno on purpose, so just ignore this part haha)

Warp bombs are nice, but worth doing only in certain parts, e.g. Collector missions or against enemies you can't Charge. I have not liked them at all, until I saw Slam-Warp bombs

Modifié par Kronner, 16 décembre 2010 - 09:23 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

 Inferno does work extremely well with Scimitar if all the enemies are closely grouped.  (Mattock actually is the best at applying non-stop inferno fireballs.)  The difficulty is when the mobs are spread out farther.  Then you need to freeze one and tuck up nice and close to him while keeping mobs on the other side.

There is much more to weapons than this of course, but it's interesting nonetheless.  Here's how the weapons in the game compare based upon maximum damage they can do between reloads (not counting defense bonuses or head shots etc).  Basically base damage per shot * shots per reload:

1,704 Revenant
1,302 Scimitar
1,252 Geth Plasma Shotgun
1,100 Katana
983 Viper
883 Eviscerator
883 Vindicator
806 Mattock
804 Incisor
700 Tempest
659 Phalanx
512 Carnifex
500 Locust
492 Shuriken
446 Predator
432 Avenger
401 Claymore
368 Widow
263 Mantis

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 16 décembre 2010 - 09:29 .

[Economist21]

I prefer the evi with my vanguards, its a nice balance between the claymore and scimitar. If you use cyro ammo the evi's freeze almost always works plus the evi has nice range for when your shooting from cover.

[Kronner]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

There is much more to weapons than this of course, but it's interesting nonetheless.  Here's how the weapons in the game compare based upon maximum damage they can do between reloads (not counting defense bonuses or head shots etc).  Basically base damage per shot * shots per reload:

1,704 Revenant
1,302 Scimitar
1,252 Geth Plasma Shotgun
1,100 Katana
983 Viper
883 Eviscerator
883 Vindicator
806 Mattock
804 Incisor
700 Tempest
659 Phalanx
512 Carnifex
500 Locust
492 Shuriken
446 Predator
432 Avenger
401 Claymore
368 Widow
263 Mantis

What does this tell us?

[Bozorgmehr]

Kronner wrote...

I'll show you Point 3 with the Claymore when I get back home sometime next week, it is actually pretty easy to do, I have found out that from certain range Claymore completly strips regular defense and then you just reload-Charge at the same time. But I am addicted to 1S1K to use that very often.

Claymore is pretty effective at short-medium range (almost similar to GPS though it'll strips defenses at long range too). If the crosshair is marked red, your shot is going to do good damage up to 10-15 meters away (works well on groups too, you easily damage multiple enemies and all 8 pellets are worth 50 damage - like a single Mattock shot).

I've used Claymore on my Adept and Engineer and those two don't have the luxury to teleport themselves into point-blank range every few seconds, but Claymore still is a very effective weapon. Great to strip defenses and kill (unprotected enemies at short-medium range); and it's absolutely devastating up close. Casting and Claymore work very well together, hardly any delay in RoF while you're using powers (used immediately after shooting or as a melee button replacement performing reload trick - casters can even use powers like Throw, Pull, Slam and NS between every shot)

Claymore is tailor made for Vanguards - the ultimate 'blow someones head off' weapon. But it can be used in other ways too; though blowing heads off definitely is top on my list

[ScroguBlitzen]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Kronner wrote...

I'll show you Point 3 with the Claymore when I get back home sometime next week, it is actually pretty easy to do, I have found out that from certain range Claymore completly strips regular defense and then you just reload-Charge at the same time. But I am addicted to 1S1K to use that very often.

Claymore is pretty effective at short-medium range (almost similar to GPS though it'll strips defenses at long range too). If the crosshair is marked red, your shot is going to do good damage up to 10-15 meters away (works well on groups too, you easily damage multiple enemies and all 8 pellets are worth 50 damage - like a single Mattock shot).

I've used Claymore on my Adept and Engineer and those two don't have the luxury to teleport themselves into point-blank range every few seconds, but Claymore still is a very effective weapon. Great to strip defenses and kill (unprotected enemies at short-medium range); and it's absolutely devastating up close. Casting and Claymore work very well together, hardly any delay in RoF while you're using powers (used immediately after shooting or as a melee button replacement performing reload trick - casters can even use powers like Throw, Pull, Slam and NS between every shot)

Claymore is tailor made for Vanguards - the ultimate 'blow someones head off' weapon. But it can be used in other ways too; though blowing heads off definitely is top on my list

I should be more clear about what I mean by questioning the Claymores effectiveness at anything past short range.  I don't mean to imply that it doesn't do damage at a larger range.  The situation I'm thinking of is when you are facing off against one or two enemies with no cover between you or them.  If you have a Claymore, then if you take your shot from medium range, then you have to wait for a reload (while they shoot you) before charging, or else reload after the charge (which is even more suboptimal).  It's the time while waiting for it to reload that makes it ineffective to use at medium range in this situation.  With a Scimitar, you can pop off 3-4 shots while closing which will probably stun-lock the enemy even through defenses, then you can charge them and still have plenty of shots to use after the charge.

None of this applies to someone sitting in cover at medium range with a Claymore.  Yes, shoot it all you want.  It will do damage.  It's just not effective to use at medium range for an aggressive Vanguard.  Can you artificially force yourself to shoot it at medium range just to show that you can?  Yes, but it's more effective to just charge and shoot them in the face.

With the Scimitar: all of the techniques I presented are actually effective in different situations.  This adds a nice variety to your playstyle.  Not more powerful than a Claymore to the face (nothing is), but more varied.

@Kronner-  As I said, it only tells you damage per reload.  Clearly not the sole measure of a weapon, otherwise the Widow and Claymore would suck, and we all know that's not the case.  Their burst damage is the best in the game, and that means less exposure.  Just thought it was interesting that the Scimitar ranks above every other weapon except the Revenant in this regard.

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 16 décembre 2010 - 10:05 .

[tonnactus]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

Best advice so far seems to be to take the Scimitar vs Blue Suns and the Eviscerator vs Blood Pack.

Or the mattock,who gets a bigger armor bonus.Charging with an assault rifle is not that bad and somehow "stylish".

[tonnactus]

Kronner wrote...

Also, how is Evi worse than Scimitar against shielded enemies?

As a balance for the armor bonus that for shields is reduced.(0,35 instead of 0,5)

Modifié par tonnactus, 16 décembre 2010 - 10:14 .

[Kronner]

tonnactus wrote...

As a balance for the armor bonus that for shields is reduced.(0,35 instead of 0,5)

Evi is still shot+melee regardless of enemy type so I don't see the point. The Scimitar's better anti-shield modifier is irrelevant.

ScroguBlitzen wrote...
I should be more clear about what I mean by questioning the Claymores
effectiveness at anything past short range.  I don't mean to imply that
it doesn't do damage at a larger range.  The situation I'm thinking of
is when you are facing off against one or two enemies with no cover
between you or them.  If you have a Claymore, then if you take your
shot from medium range, then you have to wait for a reload (while they
shoot you) before charging, or else reload after the charge (which is
even more suboptimal).  It's the time while waiting for it to reload
that makes it ineffective to use at medium range in this situation.
 With a Scimitar, you can pop off 3-4 shots while closing which will
probably stun-lock the enemy even through defenses, then you can charge
them and still have plenty of shots to use after the charge.

None
of this applies to someone sitting in cover at medium range with a
Claymore.  Yes, shoot it all you want.  It will do damage.  It's just
not effective to use at medium range for an aggressive Vanguard.  Can
you artificially force yourself to shoot it at medium range just to
show that you can?  Yes, but it's more effective to just charge and
shoot them in the face.

With the Scimitar: all of the techniques
I presented are actually effective in different situations.  This adds
a nice variety to your playstyle.  Not more powerful than a Claymore to
the face (nothing is), but more varied.

@Kronner-  As I said, it
only tells you damage per reload.  Clearly not the sole measure of a
weapon, otherwise the Widow and Claymore would suck, and we all know
that's not the case.  Their burst damage is the best in the game, and
that means less exposure.  Just thought it was interesting that the
Scimitar ranks above every other weapon except the Revenant in this
regard.

But that's the thing, you CAN fire a shot to strip defense, reload cancel using Charge, and Charge at the same time. No need for shooting from the cover. Although, it is hardly optimal play. Sending enemy flying is usually pretty bad (alive enemy is a bad enemy) actually.

[ScroguBlitzen]

@Kronner- It's sometimes a good idea to knock down a Krogan, and it's ALWAYS fun to strip and launch someone off a ledge.  (Also, sometimes you just want to weaken them but leave a little defense before charging.  Like vs Vanguards.  This doesn't apply to Claymore, but that's kind of my point.)

@tonnactus- The question here was Scimitar vs Eviscerator. The Mattock vs Viper question is in another thread and is equally controversial.

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 16 décembre 2010 - 10:32 .

[SonofMacPhisto]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Elbows?

Shotgun!

Wrex!

Psh, you guys have no vision.  Obviously, the only logical answer is the New Rapid-Fire-Unlimited Ammo Cain-Blaster 1,000,000 (with Nuke Your Enemies Action!) from Lord High Researcher Fortack.  Each unit is customed built and signed by the Lord High Researched himself!

Remember, success is measured by how hard the ground shakes!

EDIT: I'll contribute something on topic.  lol.  sinosleep said it best: pick what feels right.  All of these guns are awesome, though.  I've had my time with the Claymore (BOOMSTICK), and now I'm giving the Scimitar a turn.  The pure, mad, messy violence of it all is a LOT of fun.  Don't forget the Katana too, that thing falls nicely between the Scimitar and Evi.

Modifié par SonofMacPhisto, 17 décembre 2010 - 12:03 .