222 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

Most likely Wynne retreated with the rest of the remnants of Cailan's force, after it had been abandoned by Loghain, and healed some of the survivors

How?  Darkspawn target magic users first and the darkspawn particularly look for Grey Wardens, Mages, and women in general in that order.

I could see Joe Soldier possibly escaping the chaos of the battlefield with a little luck.

Wynne, a senior mage who is (supposedly) wounded and caring for the wounded?

Not a chance.  Again Wynne's story doesn't hold up under careful examination.

-Polaris

[mousestalker]

Don't feed the troll!

Modifié par mousestalker, 17 décembre 2010 - 11:42 .

[IanPolaris]

mousestalker wrote...

Don't feed the troll!

Are my points topical and reasonable?  If so, then I'd like an apology.  If not, then please don't play moderator.

-Polaris

[Sabariel]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually the entire conversation does at least strongly imply that the circle cut and run.  I will dissect this line by line:

   
* Loghain: You can stop scowling at me, madam.

* Wynne: Did I need your permission? I see.

* Loghain: Fine. I confess: It was entirely my idea that Uldred consort with demons. I had a dastardly scheme in which the utter destruction of Ferelden's best weapon would benefit me, personally.  Are you satisfied now?

This first is a slap in the face of Wynne and richly deserved.  It was Irving (and yes in part Wynne since she was Irving's trusted advisor for so long) that completely misread Uldred and had no idea he had a bloodmage shadow-circle under their very noses.  Indeed Irving praises Uldred for ferretting out blood magic.  Oh, the irony....

* Wynne: Do you think your deal with Uldred was where you earned my contempt? I was at Ostagar. I witnessed Cailan's murder.

* Loghain: Such loyalty.

* Wynne: What is that supposed to mean?

* Loghain: Did you try to save him, then? My apologies.

* Wynne: I was fortunate to escape with my life!

Again richly deserved.  Had the circle NOT cut and run, then they could have done something (a barrage of "nightmare' would have been perfect!) to give the King's soldiers an escape route while confiusing the Darkspawn.  Wynne clearly states that the mages were in no position to do this, which means they either fled or got taken out early.  Given that we can account for three of the seven mages up to the time you light the tower (and that was early in the battle!) the circle almost had to have fled if they could not help the king.

* Loghain: So you didn't rush to your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.

* Wynne: I was no general at the head of an army! I could never have reached him!

Again Logain is correctly calling out Wynne on her hypocrisy.  Even a handful of mages has power equal to an army if properly applied by discplined battlemages as he explains below...but obviously the circle mages there were anything but.

* Loghain: And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of mere soldiers are cheap in the eyes of the Circle.

* Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.

* Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.

* Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

Again a richly deserved slam on Wynne and it makes me think (one of many things) that Logain decided to pull out at nearly the last minute.  Logain clearly wanted Cailen in the back ranks preferably with his troops.  Furthermore some of Logain's own men try to help you retake the tower during Ostagar....and there is nothing to suggest that the Darkspawn even during a blight are able to send ambassadors and treat with Logain so he could 'treacherously" leave the tower open to the darkspawn.  Darkspawn don't negotiate (pre Awakenings anyway).  No, it's far more reasonable to assume that Logain did have a palace coup in mind, but wanted Cailen under control and/or under house arrest....not killed by darkspawn but Logain underestimated the darkspawn (as did everyone else).

When you talk with Logain after you recruit him, Logain while not a nice and fuzzy man does not strike me as one that doesn't value his soldiers.....but that value doesn't stop him from spending lives either for the greater good (an essential trait in a good leader).  Wynne of course is clueless about all of that.

The point is that Logain clearly did not have magical support available even after only a few minutes (certainly less than a half hour) into the battle.  That certainly does at least strongly imply that the circle mages cut and ran.
Perhaps they didn't "first of all", but I never said "first of all"...but they almost had to be one of the first, and we do know that darkspawn go after mages first of all during a blight.

-Polaris

Edit:  No one has still explained to me how a female mage (and we know that the darkspawn particularly target women and mages both) that was injured managed hundreds of miles behind enemy lines in the midst of a darkspawn horde to not only escape but somehow tend to the wounded as well.  (sarc) I guess these Darkspawn honored the Geneva Conventions (/sarc)

I'm sorry, but talking to you is akin to slamming one's face repeatedly into a brick wall. You create an image in your mind and cannot let go of it and completely twist things out of context so they fit the image in your mind. I think this will be the last time I will be stupid enough to reply to one of your posts.

[IanPolaris]

Sabariel wrote...

I'm sorry, but talking to you is akin to slamming one's face repeatedly into a brick wall. You create an image in your mind and cannot let go of it and completely twist things out of context so they fit the image in your mind. I think this will be the last time I will be stupid enough to reply to one of your posts.

Lovely.  You obviously can't dispute my arguments so you attack my person instead.

-Polaris

[Sabariel]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

I'm sorry, but talking to you is akin to slamming one's face repeatedly into a brick wall. You create an image in your mind and cannot let go of it and completely twist things out of context so they fit the image in your mind. I think this will be the last time I will be stupid enough to reply to one of your posts.

Lovely.  You obviously can't dispute my arguments so you attack my person instead.

-Polaris

How does one dispute things twisted so grossly out of context? How does one reason with someone so stubbornly clinging to a distorted image of something? If you figure it out let me know. Until then, so long.

[Wulfram]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Most likely Wynne retreated with the rest of the remnants of Cailan's force, after it had been abandoned by Loghain, and healed some of the survivors

How?  Darkspawn target magic users first and the darkspawn particularly look for Grey Wardens, Mages, and women in general in that order.

I could see Joe Soldier possibly escaping the chaos of the battlefield with a little luck.

Wynne, a senior mage who is (supposedly) wounded and caring for the wounded?

Not a chance.  Again Wynne's story doesn't hold up under careful examination.

Mages wouldn't be fighting right on the front lines, they'd be back with the archers.  Well positioned to escape.

Once she's escaped, she'd be in a position to treat the wounded soldiers who were with her.  Not that it takes very long for a mage to cast a healing spell or two, anyway.

[IanPolaris]

Sabariel wrote...

How does one dispute things twisted so grossly out of context? How does one reason with someone so stubbornly clinging to a distorted image of something? If you figure it out let me know. Until then, so long.

All that should be followed by "In your opinion".  In my world, calling someone names and then stomping off is tantamount to a concession.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

Mages wouldn't be fighting right on the front lines, they'd be back with the archers.  Well positioned to escape.

Once she's escaped, she'd be in a position to treat the wounded soldiers who were with her.  Not that it takes very long for a mage to cast a healing spell or two, anyway.

The darkspawn had plenty of emmissaries (more than the King had circle mages) and as such the ranged capacity of the darkspawn was actually very strong.

A mage won't go anywhere when hit by Crushing Prison and that's the favorite dawkspawn spell to hit pretty much any magic user with that they see.

My point is that again, Joe Archer, I could see getting away.  The Darkspawn aren't particularly interested in Joe Archer except as fodder.

Wynne, the senior female mage?  That's a completely different story.

-Polaris

[mousestalker]

If memory serves, we see exactly one emissary at Ostagar, in the tower, on the first floor.



Which means that there is as much evidence that the darkspawn had the circle mages outnumbered as there is that the Ferelden forces were overwhelmed by blightpoodles.



I therefore propose that blightpoodles forced the mages to flee in fear and horror. That's also why the mabari were not as effective as hoped.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Persephone wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

If that's the case, she has set new levels for hypocrisy, going on about Loghain abandoning the king. When she left well before Loghain did. if that's the case.

It is. Loghain calls her out on it in a banter and she doesn't deny it.

Yeah, I know that (one of the best damn banters in the game, I think). I was always under the impression that Wynne had somehow escaped after the battle, being one of the few straggling survivors after Loghain left. But actually leaving BEFORE Loghain just makes her hypocrisy even worse.

Which, as you said, Loghain calls her out on remarkably well. She wasn't hanging around to save the king, either.

[IanPolaris]

mousestalker wrote...

If memory serves, we see exactly one emissary at Ostagar, in the tower, on the first floor.

Which means that there is as much evidence that the darkspawn had the circle mages outnumbered as there is that the Ferelden forces were overwhelmed by blightpoodles.

I therefore propose that blightpoodles forced the mages to flee in fear and horror. That's also why the mabari were not as effective as hoped.

Get your memory checked.  There was also a Hurlock Emissary in the Kocari Wilds and it was leading the equivalent of a routine scouting mission for the Darkspawn.  That's two you encounter right there and both well away from the main force of the darkspawn.

Furthermore, if you look at the cut scenes of the battle, I count just casually at least 2-3 more just in the few closeups of the Darkspawn (look for the twisted sticks on the back).

Also during your retake of the tower, when you compare the capability of the Genlock Emissary to your Circle Mage (assuming a non-mage warden), your circle mage is ridiculously outclassed.

I also note you only encounter one Ogre in the tower as well, but we know (again from the cut scene) that there were many Ogres in the main horde.

-Polaris

[mousestalker]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

If that's the case, she has set new levels for hypocrisy, going on about Loghain abandoning the king. When she left well before Loghain did. if that's the case.

It is. Loghain calls her out on it in a banter and she doesn't deny it.

Yeah, I know that (one of the best damn banters in the game, I think). I was always under the impression that Wynne had somehow escaped after the battle, being one of the few straggling survivors after Loghain left. But actually leaving BEFORE Loghain just makes her hypocrisy even worse.

Which, as you said, Loghain calls her out on remarkably well. She wasn't hanging around to save the king, either.

It's worth sparing Loghain at least once just for the banters. Loghain and Wynne are, arguably, the best combination for Return to Ostagar as well.

[Erika T]

Loghain's action was premeditated. He actively did the opposite of what he swore to do, he failed to send in his men when the king expected them. He knew he was going to abandon the king.



Wynne and the mages, if its true that they fled, then what happened was that they saw an overwhelming, almost lost battle, panicked and ran to save their lives. Whilst cowardly, there is a world of difference between this and what Loghain did.

[KnightofPhoenix]

You know that DA:O is virtually dead when the only thing that is being debated is Wynne of all things....At least that's what I thought when Loghain was brought in, which is quite expected.

[mousestalker]

We're in the lull before the sequel gets released. Things will pick up greatly in February and March.

[IanPolaris]

Erika T wrote...

Loghain's action was premeditated. He actively did the opposite of what he swore to do, he failed to send in his men when the king expected them. He knew he was going to abandon the king.

Except there is at least some canonical doubt about how premediated Logain's action was.  Certainly Alistair believes that Logain had it planned from the start, but Alistair isn't exactly unbiased when it comes to Teyrn Logain (to put it mildly).  If you spare Logain and talk to him, Logain claims that the battle was hopeless before the beacon was even lit and this is backed up by the King's own bodyguard when you talk with him (at the start of Return to Ostagar).    Also Logain (and Eamon if you read his letter!) constantly is trying to get King Cailain to do the sensible thing and stay OFF the front lines....which is not exactly the modus operandi of one trying to get Cailain killed.  As I've said before, I do think that Logain was planning a palace coup in light of Cailain sniffing up the skirt of the Orlesian Empress (but even Logain didn't realize until RtO just how far Cailain's nose was up Celene's skirt), but I've seen no evidenc that conclusive shows that Logain's plan to abandon the king was premediated at least before the final meeting before the battle anyway.

Wynne and the mages, if its true that they fled, then what happened was that they saw an overwhelming, almost lost battle, panicked and ran to save their lives. Whilst cowardly, there is a world of difference between this and what Loghain did.

True.  Honestly I can't fault the mages for breaking assuming they were as badly outgunned magical as I strongly suspect.  What rankles me is Wynne's self-serving story in the tower about how poor  'lil 'ol Wynne sacrificed herself (while wounded in battle no less) to stay behind and tend the wounded and (just in time) telling of Logain's treachery when none of it really stands under close scrutiny.  The hypocrisy and self-serving nature of it all is enough to turn my stomache.

-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You know that DA:O is virtually dead when the only thing that is being debated is Wynne of all things....At least that's what I thought when Loghain was brought in, which is quite expected.

Sadly, you're right. it's been pretty dead over the past week, really, so any activity is welcome.

I think it's a combination of having debated everything else to death, plus the upcoming release of DA2, plus the holiday season where people are out doing this and that. So yeah, you're stuck debating your least favorite companion.

[Face of Evil]

Darkspawn do not specifically go after mages. They do not have a pecking order of favoured targets; they simply kill every living thing they see that isn't a darkspawn. And even then, they still end up killing each other.



You are thinking of demons. Demons target mages, not darkspawn.



There is as much a chance of Wynne escaping Ostagar as any solider.

[MistySun]

Wow, i only expected one or two replies, not a full bloodied debate...but thanks to you all for your opinions of what may or may not of happenend. It makes very interesting reading.

[crawfs]

[quote]

* Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.[/quote]

Again a richly deserved slam on Wynne and it makes me think (one of many things) that Logain decided to pull out at nearly the last minute.  Logain clearly wanted Cailen in the back ranks preferably with his troops.  Furthermore some of Logain's own men try to help you retake the tower during Ostagar....and there is nothing to suggest that the Darkspawn even during a blight are able to send ambassadors and treat with Logain so he could 'treacherously" leave the tower open to the darkspawn.  Darkspawn don't negotiate (pre Awakenings anyway).  No, it's far more reasonable to assume that Logain did have a palace coup in mind, but wanted Cailen under control and/or under house arrest....not killed by darkspawn but Logain underestimated the darkspawn (as did everyone else).



[/quote]
2 things:
1. 0 is a very easy number to count
2. Wynne is a HEALER not a fighter

that's all

[Erika T]

Polaris:-



Why I am convinced that Loghain's actions were premeditated:



1. The Orlais connection - no way he would let Cailan turn to the Orlesian empire

2. He seems only too eager to prove that the wardens are not as useful/great as cailan thinks - that right from the beginning.

3. I am not saying he intended to have the king dead (although possible) from early on. I think he tried to talk Cailan out of being in the battle. I do think he definitely wanted to betray the wardens, to show their uselessness to Cailan?

4. He definitely doesnt think Cailan fills Marics shoes. He wants to be regent himself.

5. when the two wardens are sent to light the torch, he seems suspicious. I dont know what, but something about his behaviour is not right. I ahve to play it again to analyse.

6. He says "Cailans death was his own doing". he regrets it happened, but he knew it would happen, or so it seems to me.. thats what I think anyhow

[Sarah1281]

Face of Evil wrote...

Darkspawn do not specifically go after mages. They do not have a pecking order of favoured targets; they simply kill every living thing they see that isn't a darkspawn. And even then, they still end up killing each other.

You are thinking of demons. Demons target mages, not darkspawn.

There is as much a chance of Wynne escaping Ostagar as any solider.

What makes you think they don't? These aren't mindless darkspawn; these are organized Blight-darkspawn. They had enough intelligence and sense of strategy to tunner under the tower to sabotage the beacon-lighting and to disguise their numbers before the battle so Cailan would commit his inadequate force and get wiped out. Their first priority would obviously be the GWs and even unintelligent darkspawn would go after them because of the taint. After that, the most dangerous opponents are mages who don't even have to be near them to do a great deal of damage. We have no reason to think the darkspawn are lacking the strategical ability (in light of the fact that it is a Blight and what they already did) to take out their second-most dangerous opponents at the start. Besides, going after the mages breaks the human ranks and throws them off.

1. 0 is a very easy number to count

What? 

[Sarah1281]

Erika T wrote...

Polaris:-

Why I am convinced that Loghain's actions were premeditated:

1. The Orlais connection - no way he would let Cailan turn to the Orlesian empire

But a loss at Ostagar would only further convince people that they needed Orlais, particularly with half the army gone. Loghain trying to convince everyone that they don't need Orlais' troops by decimating the army makes no sense. If Loghain had won at Ostagar, that would have silenced a great many 'maybe we should turn to Orlais' voices.

2. He seems only too eager to prove that the wardens are not as useful/great as cailan thinks - that right from the beginning.

I think he is a little concerned about their influence on Cailan since his experience with the Wardens (and Duncan, for that matter) leads him to think that they're Orlesian agents and he's already concerned by the way Cailan barely admits the occupation happened. Still, he doesn't come off as fanatically devoted to their destruction and even takes the time to meet with and encourage a random GW recruit if you stop by. Given that you're not even a Warden yet and he's the general of the army on the night before the battle, that's rather impressive.

3. I am not saying he intended to have the king dead (although possible) from early on. I think he tried to talk Cailan out of being in the battle. I do think he definitely wanted to betray the wardens, to show their uselessness to Cailan?

So Loghain doesn't like the Wardens and is convinced (with some reason) that they're Orlesian agents. Is that worth decimating the army? Hardly. I don't think there are more than two dozen Wardens or so in Ferelden at this point. If Loghain could have won the day, even if Cailan himself were absolutely convinced that it was all those two dozen Wardens who - while taking out more darkspawn than any individual non-Warden soldier - couldn't even remotely hope to match Loghain's army then most people would realize that it really wasn't. Betraying them at a later date, maybe, but the cost would not have been worth it then.

4. He definitely doesnt think Cailan fills Marics shoes. He wants to be regent himself.

Why would he? He doesn't think Cailan can handle it but Cailan is hardly handling it. Anora rules and he seems to have complete faith in her. He does claim the regency once Cailan's dead, yes, but he's paranoid (and maybe rightly) that Anora will be replaced and that only he can defeat the darkspawn. Also, Loghain is noticeably happier once he's done being regent. He doesn't reallly like politics or his fellow nobles, after all.

5. when the two wardens are sent to light the torch, he seems suspicious. I dont know what, but something about his behaviour is not right. I ahve to play it again to analyse.

This is the part that's a little confusing. We're told that he wanted his own men or Uldred to light the beacon in case he decided to retreat because then they wouldn't light the beacon. I'm not sure exactly how he would have been able to let them know whether to light the beacon or not but I guess that's just one of those things you have to go with.

6. He says "Cailans death was his own doing". he regrets it happened, but he knew it would happen, or so it seems to me.. thats what I think anyhow

I don't see what's so suspicious about this. Had Cailan listened to Loghain and waited back by Loghain's troops then I have no idea what would have happened to him post-Ostagar but he would have survived the battle, at least. Loghain (conspiracy theories about him using reverse psychology to get Cailan on the field notwithstanding) did try to convince him not to fight on the front lines and Cailan implied that they'd had that argument quite a bit. That Cailan died at Ostagar was because Cailan chose to fight on the front lines with the Wardens.

[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 That Cailan died at Ostagar was because Cailan chose to fight on the front lines with the Wardens.

He might have had more chance of surviving if he'd been further back, but he'd hardly have been safe.  And if Loghain had done his part of the plan, the inspiration derived from having the King fighting on the front lines - though protected by the finest warriors in Ferelden - might have been crucial to achieving victory.