222 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

And if Loghain is convinced the darkspawn horde is so overwhelming that Ostagar is unwinnable (despite a very good defensive position), why does he proceed to behave as though this same darkspawn army is not a serious threat thereafter. Remember the cut scene where Anora is badgering him about "shouldn't we be fighting the Darkspawn"?



Besides, before the battle, he's already acting as though he expects to be in control of things. He's promising Uldred his support if the circle mages rebel: why would the support of Teyrn of Gwaren mean anything? He sends somebody he hardly knows to poison Eamon--would he have done that if he had been concerned about discovery?



And I find it ridiculous that someone who thinks Wynne's survival is suspicious thinks that Cailan would have survived had he not been on the front lines. Cailan was heavily armored, moved more slowly, and would have had a harder time escaping. He was highly visible and (as the treatment of his body in RtO clearly shows), the Darkspawn knew who he was, and would have sought him out. Cailan had less chance of survival than anybody else on the field, regardless of where he was in the battle.

[Sarah1281]

Anora badgers him about paying attention to the darkspawn? Doesn't she just say that they need help and suggest the Orlesians? He splits his focus too much but he hardly IGNORES the darkspawn.



No one is denying that Loghain did intend to confront Cailan post-battle and get him to see things his way with regards to the Orlesians but that doesn't mean he intended to declare himself regent the whole time when if Cailan were still alive but kept out of the way Anora could just continue to rule with no questions asked. We're really not sure exactly what Loghain promised Uldred and/or if he ever intended to keep that promise. Breaking a promise would be dishonorable, sure, but I feel that if Loghain felt that making and then breaking that promise was the only way to keep Ferelden safe that he would do it in a heartbeat.



I personally NEVER said Wynne's survival was at all suspicious. What is suspicious about the darkspawn targeting mages and Wynne fleeing the battle but then coming back after it was over to take care of the wounded? What I mean about Cailan is even if it were a smashing success and only the darkspawn they expected showed up, Cailan's position puts him in a great position to die. He risked far too much, even before it became a massacre. And had Cailan been with Loghain's troops, he wouldn't have needed to run from darkspawn at all.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

maxernst wrote...

Besides, before the battle, he's already acting as though he expects to be in control of things. He's promising Uldred his support if the circle mages rebel: why would the support of Teyrn of Gwaren mean anything? He sends somebody he hardly knows to poison Eamon--would he have done that if he had been concerned about discovery?

He's not just the Teyrn of gwaren (though as a teyrn, he is only outranked by the crown, so his support regardless carries weight), he is also the hero of River Dane and the Queen's father, as well as Ferelden's most respected general.

As far as poisoning Eamon goes, Jowan is what the spook community would refer to as a "deniable asset". In otherwords, Jowan gets caught and tries to rat Loghain out, Loghain says "What...me? Hire a blood mage? To poison the brother or our late and beloved Queen Rowan? I find such accusations offensive!"

And whose word do you think the Chantry and the Landsmeet are going to take: The word of a highly repected and beloved war hero and noble, or the word of a screw-up maleficar on the run from the circle wanted for various crimes?

Such an accusation would require hard proof to for it to be taken seriously. In fact, at Landsmeet, unless your Warden does the footwork to gather the hard evidence of Loghain's crimes, no one believes you and you lose, because by default, the Landsmeet will tend to trust and believe Loghain over you.

So Loghain's poisoning of Eamon prior to ostagar means nothing, except that Loghain was planning something that required Eamon to be temporarily disabled and out of the picture.

[IanPolaris]

Sarah has already answered this, but here's my take on these points:

maxernst wrote...

And if Loghain is convinced the darkspawn horde is so overwhelming that Ostagar is unwinnable (despite a very good defensive position), why does he proceed to behave as though this same darkspawn army is not a serious threat thereafter. Remember the cut scene where Anora is badgering him about "shouldn't we be fighting the Darkspawn"?

Look at the expression of the King's face when he finally sees the Darkspawn horde.  It thinki prior the battle everyone except Duncan underestimated just how massive and destructive the main horde was going to be, including Logain.  I think Logain when he saw the horde at that point decided the battle was unwinnable even attacking from flank from a perfect position (essentially crossing the Darkspawn "T").  However, while battles are hardly safe, I do think that Logain wanted Cailain in the back lines with Gwaren forces where at least he's be safer (and so did Eamon for that matter!) but the king was too idiotic to listen to advice on this point.

It's at this point I think that Teryn Logain during that meeting essentially threw up his mental hands and essentially said to himself, "Fine, if you want to be a dumb-dumb, I'm not going to throw good men after bad if you get yourself into an unwinnable position."  This quite honestly is a reasonable position to take under the circumstances.

Besides, before the battle, he's already acting as though he expects to be in control of things. He's promising Uldred his support if the circle mages rebel: why would the support of Teyrn of Gwaren mean anything? He sends somebody he hardly knows to poison Eamon--would he have done that if he had been concerned about discovery?

As others have said, Jowan is a completely deniable action.  I don't deny that Logain seems to have every intention of pulling off what amounts to a "Palace Coup" (i.e. keep Cailain under lock and key while letting his wife run things) especially given how Cailain was seen sniffing up the Orlesian skirt (but even Logain didn't know to what extent that was true!) , but that's a far cry from wanting the king dead.  Given that, it's reasonable the Logain would want Eamon incapacitated for a time.

And I find it ridiculous that someone who thinks Wynne's survival is suspicious thinks that Cailan would have survived had he not been on the front lines. Cailan was heavily armored, moved more slowly, and would have had a harder time escaping. He was highly visible and (as the treatment of his body in RtO clearly shows), the Darkspawn knew who he was, and would have sought him out. Cailan had less chance of survival than anybody else on the field, regardless of where he was in the battle.

Like I said earlier, it's not Wynne's survival that anyone finds suspicious.  It's her story/assertion that she fought in the battle, was wounded (and by implication badly wounded), and then "heroically" stayed behind to care for the wounded all in the middle of a darkspawn horde whose members were specifically on the lookout for Grey Wardens, Mages, and Women in general.

I just don't buy it.  It's Wynne's self-serving post-Ostagar story that I (and some others) are taking issue with.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Yes absolutely.  If you say that Logain poisoned Eamon with a bloodmage and don't have hard proof (i.e. you didn't free Irminric), you are virtually laughed out of the landsmeet.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:28 .

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...

And if Loghain is convinced the darkspawn horde is so overwhelming that Ostagar is unwinnable (despite a very good defensive position), why does he proceed to behave as though this same darkspawn army is not a serious threat thereafter. Remember the cut scene where Anora is badgering him about "shouldn't we be fighting the Darkspawn"?
 

Because there is also an overwhelming force of Orlesian chevaliers poised to enter Ferelden.  It is a two-front war in his view, which then turns into a civil war.

Gaider said that Loghain did not make the final decision to leave the battle until he saw the beacon, so that's all I'm going to discuss about that.  Others can feel free to spin a long debate about it.

As far as Wynne goes, I'm not inclined to dispute anything she says in fact, only that she considers herself above any criticism for it which is de rigeur Wynne hypocrisy.  "I could not save him" means she left the battlefield before she knew Cailan was dead, which means she did abandon the king and flee for her life.  Yet of all the companions except Alistair, she's the most condemning of Loghain.  She could have been healing survivors outside the Wilds, for example in Lothering on her way back to the Tower.  I don't doubt that she did that.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

Because there is also an overwhelming force of Orlesian chevaliers poised to enter Ferelden.  It is a two-front war in his view, which then turns into a civil war.

Gaider said that Loghain did not make the final decision to leave the battle until he saw the beacon, so that's all I'm going to discuss about that.  Others can feel free to spin a long debate about it.

Interesting.  So I read Loghain correctly then.  I don't doubt for a moment that Loghain was going to pull some power games (perhaps even a palace coup) after Ostagar, but I don't buy that he intended to abandon the King until the very last moment.

As far as Wynne goes, I'm not inclined to dispute anything she says in fact, only that she considers herself above any criticism for it which is de rigeur Wynne hypocrisy.  "I could not save him" means she left the battlefield before she knew Cailan was dead, which means she did abandon the king and flee for her life.  Yet of all the companions except Alistair, she's the most condemning of Loghain.  She could have been healing survivors outside the Wilds, for example in Lothering on her way back to the Tower.  I don't doubt that she did that.

Why are you willing to take her unvarnished word on this?  I don't find Wynne particularly trustworthy and her facts are frequently either distorted or wrong (such as 'only one Grey Warden Mage' during the blood mage confrontation scene), and Wynne has every reason to tell her tale in the most self-serving way possible (when you meet in the tower) especially since there aren't any witnesses (until Loghain) that can challenge her. 

The Darkspawn do target Mages perferentially and do look for Grey Wardens, Mages, and women preferentially (and late in DAO we find out why...Hespith....gruesome). 

Look, I'm not sayig that Wynne couldn't have survived and I'm not saying she might not have thrown a healing spell or two along the way.  What I am saying is that her implied narrative falls apart on it's face.  There's simply no reasonable way should could have been wounded so badly that she couldn't make it back to the tower before Uldred, take care of "the wounded" (which implies lots of wounded and effectively a field hospital), all in the face of a darkspawn horde controlling the area and looking for people like her.

In short, in classic Wynpocrisy, she is making herself out to be a lot more noble and heroic than she deserves.

-Polaris

[Sarah1281]

Out of curiousity, what's her 'I was wounded' line? I don't remember it.

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...


As far as Wynne goes, I'm not inclined to dispute anything she says in fact, only that she considers herself above any criticism for it which is de rigeur Wynne hypocrisy.  "I could not save him" means she left the battlefield before she knew Cailan was dead, which means she did abandon the king and flee for her life.

How does it mean that?

[IanPolaris]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Out of curiousity, what's her 'I was wounded' line? I don't remember it.

She says she was wounded when you talk to her in the tower.  She claims that this was why she was much later getting back to the tower than Uldred.  I don't remember the exact line but I do remember her saying it.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


As far as Wynne goes, I'm not inclined to dispute anything she says in fact, only that she considers herself above any criticism for it which is de rigeur Wynne hypocrisy.  "I could not save him" means she left the battlefield before she knew Cailan was dead, which means she did abandon the king and flee for her life.

How does it mean that?

How does it not.  If King Cailain had died while she was on the battlefield, she could have turned the entire conversaion around on Loghain as Loghain himself admits when he says, 'Oh, you tried to save the king then.  My apologies."  Yes he says it sarcastically but he does so because he knows it's not true....and Wynne by implciation admits it's not true.

Ergo, Wynne cut and ran while the king was still alive.  It's a pretty direct inference.

-Polaris

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Anora badgers him about paying attention to the darkspawn? Doesn't she just say that they need help and suggest the Orlesians? He splits his focus too much but he hardly IGNORES the darkspawn.

Anora:  Shouldn't we be fighting the darkspawn?

Can't recall the exact words in Loghain's response, but he essentially says, no, we have to worry about bringing the banns in line and the Orlesians.  He dismisses the Darkspawn as something that we can deal with later.  There's no evidence in that conversation or what he says before the Landsmeet that he considers the Darkspawn a serious threat.  If Anora is asking "shouldn't we be fighting the Darkspawn?", doesn't that imply that he is NOT fighting the Darkspawn?  We know he's supposedly raising an army, but an army is non-specific and can be used against Orlais and against rebels, both of which are higher priorities in his view, both in his conversation with Anora and at the Landsmeet.  For that matter, eradicating the Wardens seems to be a higher priority than the Darkspawn?  I wonder how many mercenaries could have bought with what the paid the Crows.  There's no hard evidence in game that he is doing anything at all about the Darkspawn.

Modifié par maxernst, 17 décembre 2010 - 09:26 .

[IanPolaris]

maxernst wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Anora badgers him about paying attention to the darkspawn? Doesn't she just say that they need help and suggest the Orlesians? He splits his focus too much but he hardly IGNORES the darkspawn.

Anora:  Shouldn't we be fighting the darkspawn?

Can't recall the exact words in Loghain's response, but he essentially says, no, we have to worry about bringing the banns in line and the Orlesians.  He dismisses the Darkspawn as something that we can deal with later.  There's no evidence in that conversation or what he says before the Landsmeet that he considers the Darkspawn a serious threat.  If Anora is asking "shouldn't we be fighting the Darkspawn?", doesn't that imply that he is NOT fighting the Darkspawn?  We know he's supposedly raising an army, but an army is non-specific and can be used against Orlais and against rebels, both of which are higher priorities in his view, both in his conversation with Anora and at the Landsmeet.  For that matter, eradicating the Wardens seems to be a higher priority than the Darkspawn?  I wonder how many mercenaries could have bought with what the paid the Crows.  There's no hard evidence in game that he is doing anything at all about the Darkspawn.

Actually Loghain says that the nobles have to be brought into line first.  He then goes on to say that this is no true blight but only Cailain's vanity demanded it be so.

If you speak with him afterwords, Loghain admits that he was wrong about it being a true blight.  He's well aware of the military danger of the Darkspawn horde and if he wasn't Howe certainly reminds him of it.  He also admits that his plan wasn't a good plan, but it was the best he could do facing (in his mind) a two-front war between Orlais and the Darkspawn.

Honestly, if you take Loghain's assumptions and preconceptions as fact, then he is essentially correct.  The Nobles DO have to be united first.  Heck, when you wake him up, even Eamon says much the same.  A Fereldon in civil war is worse than useless.  Both Eamon and Loghain both understand this.

Thus I don't think Loghain (other than not understanding it's a true blight....which no one other than true Grey Wardens had any absolute proof of at the time) underestimates the Darkspawn so much as putting the unification of Ferelden first (again Eamon's priorities are much the same).

-Polaris

[Wulfram]

IanPolaris wrote...

How does it not.  If King Cailain had died while she was on the battlefield, she could have turned the entire conversaion around on Loghain as Loghain himself admits when he says, 'Oh, you tried to save the king then.  My apologies."  Yes he says it sarcastically but he does so because he knows it's not true....and Wynne by implciation admits it's not true.

Ergo, Wynne cut and ran while the king was still alive.  It's a pretty direct inference.

-Polaris

No, not buying it.  She says she couldn't save the King, which is pretty obvious considering she's one person and there was a bloody great horde of darkspawn.  There's nothing there which suggests she ran while Cailan was still alive.

[KnightofPhoenix]

maxernst wrote...
Anora:  Shouldn't we be fighting the darkspawn?

Can't recall the exact words in Loghain's response, but he essentially says, no, we have to worry about bringing the banns in line and the Orlesians. 

I'd very much like to see how anyone could fight the Darkspawn while the Bannorn, who are right in between them and you, are fighting you instead. They present a geographical obstacle. Loghain could not have fought the darkspawn even if he wished to, the bannorn are in the way. And of course Loghain can't be expected to send troops through the bannorn and hope they don't get ambushed or get isolated because he can't supply them.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 décembre 2010 - 09:45 .

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

No, not buying it.  She says she couldn't save the King, which is pretty obvious considering she's one person and there was a bloody great horde of darkspawn.  There's nothing there which suggests she ran while Cailan was still alive.

You don't want to admit it.  Loghain gives Wynne the perfect opporutinty to say that she tried to save the king (i.e. she stayed until after he died) but Wynne all but admits that she fled before then.

Wynne abandoned the king too.  I think that is abundantly clear.

-Polaris

[Wulfram]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

No, not buying it.  She says she couldn't save the King, which is pretty obvious considering she's one person and there was a bloody great horde of darkspawn.  There's nothing there which suggests she ran while Cailan was still alive.

You don't want to admit it.  Loghain gives Wynne the perfect opporutinty to say that she tried to save the king (i.e. she stayed until after he died) but Wynne all but admits that she fled before then.

So if she wasn't trying to save the King, she was running away?  There was a battle going on, if you hadn't noticed.

Wynne abandoned the king too.  I think that is abundantly clear.

-Polaris

There is no evidence whatsoever for that.  It's pure invention.

[Sarah1281]

Okay, found Wynne's line.



PC: Can you tell me how all this trouble started?

Wynne: Ah, a long story. It all started when I returned from Ostagar. I was at that ill-fated battle and I survived, barely. I was in no state to travel, so I stayed at Ostagar to recuperate and help the wounded. Uldred, on the other hand, left for the tower almost immediately. When I finally returned here I found that Uldred had all but convinced the Circle to join Loghain, the man who nearly destroyed us all! I cannot fault the Circle though, Uldred had a persuasive argument, and how could they have known what happened in Ostagar?

PC: What did Uldred say?

Wynne: The alliance with Loghain would have been to the Circle's advantage; according to Uldred, once Loghain was in power, he would order the Chantry to give us more freedom. Well, I told the First Enchanter Irving what Loghain did on the battlefield. I revealed him for the traitorous bastard he is.



That's interesting because I'd been under the impression Loghain had offered to free the mages. Just having the Chantry give them more freedoms would have been far easier and less scandalous to do. By 'once Loghain was in power' I assume Cailan would either come around or be marginalized unless Uldred was referring to the fact that Cailan was now dead so he assumed Loghain would be taking power.

[Persephone]

Face of Evil wrote...

The mages did not all cut and run. Uldred left early because he was privy to Loghain's plan to abandon Cailan at Ostagar.

That theory falls to pieces, given that David Gaider confirmed that Loghain's retreat was not planned ahead. It was a decision he made based on the delayed signal and much bigger enemy forces.

[Wulfram]

Persephone wrote...

That theory falls to pieces, given that David Gaider confirmed that Loghain's retreat was not planned ahead. It was a decision he made based on the delayed signal and much bigger enemy forces.

Except the VO notes clearly say he had it planned at the meeting.  And David Gaider is careful to make it clear that his comments in that thread aren't necessarily canon.

edit: I'd also say that even taking Gaider's posts as canon, Loghain still had planned to abandon Cailan.  He just hadn't taken the final decision as to whether to put that plan into operation.

Modifié par Wulfram, 17 décembre 2010 - 10:07 .

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

Persephone wrote...

That theory falls to pieces, given that David Gaider confirmed that Loghain's retreat was not planned ahead. It was a decision he made based on the delayed signal and much bigger enemy forces.

Except the VO notes clearly say he had it planned at the meeting.  And David Gaider is careful to make it clear that his comments in that thread aren't necessarily canon.

VO's aren't very reliable to me, as they are usually MUCH older than the actual recordings & plots. Just IMO. Besides, the whole war council scene was awfully done.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


As far as Wynne goes, I'm not inclined to dispute anything she says in fact, only that she considers herself above any criticism for it which is de rigeur Wynne hypocrisy.  "I could not save him" means she left the battlefield before she knew Cailan was dead, which means she did abandon the king and flee for her life.

How does it mean that?

Because she didn't say "he was already dead, so we fled for our lives."

[ejoslin]

Oh, yeh, the vo notes say how the voice is supposed to sound -- this doesn't signify meaning necessarily (there are plenty of places where the VO notes have the voice contradicting the words and facial animations which gives the line more of an effect). Here are the VO notes;

Loghain: Sound the retreat. (he is a commander giving an order that he knows will mean the death of many, very grim -- but it must be done)
Ser Cauthrien: But... what about the king? Should we not-- (shocked and uncertain)
Loghain: Do as I command. (tersely, she will do as he commands or he WILL KILL HER)
Ser Cauthrien: Pull out! All of you, let's move! (she is turning to shout orders to her men)

Since Ser Cauthrien is Loghain's second-in-command and this is a shock to her, it does seem like it may be more an impromptu thing.

Interestingly, there is another line in there that does not trigger.

pre100cr_soldier_king: My lord! The signal is lit and Loghain's forces have fled. We are betrayed! (shocked and horrified)

I wonder why that was taken out... Or is it just the way the cutscene is designed I wonder as it looks like it should trigger.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 décembre 2010 - 10:14 .

[Wulfram]

Persephone wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Except the VO notes clearly say he had it planned at the meeting.  And David Gaider is careful to make it clear that his comments in that thread aren't necessarily canon.

VO's aren't very reliable to me, as they are usually MUCH older than the actual recordings & plots. Just IMO. Besides, the whole war council scene was awfully done.

To me, it's clearly reflected in the actors performance which makes it hard to ignore.  But we don't really need to have this debate again.

[Persephone]

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, yeh, the vo notes say how the voice is supposed to sound -- this doesn't signify meaning necessarily (there are plenty of places where the VO notes have the voice contradicting the words and facial animations which gives the line more of an effect). Here are the VO notes;

Loghain: Sound the retreat. (he is a commander giving an order that he knows will mean the death of many, very grim -- but it must be done)
Ser Cauthrien: But... what about the king? Should we not-- (shocked and uncertain)
Loghain: Do as I command. (tersely, she will do as he commands or he WILL KILL HER)
Ser Cauthrien: Pull out! All of you, let's move! (she is turning to shout orders to her men)

Since Ser Cauthrien is Loghain's second-in-command and this is a shock to her, it does seem like it may be more an impromptu thing.

Interestingly, there is another line in there that does not trigger.

pre100cr_soldier_king: My lord! The signal is lit and Loghain's forces have fled. We are betrayed! (shocked and horrified)

I wonder why that was taken out... Or is it just the way the cutscene is designed I wonder as it looks like it should trigger.

Thanks for digging those up ejoslin. My guess is that this was a "worst kind scenario" plan. As is indicated by the "It must be done". I could be wrong, of course.

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


As far as Wynne goes, I'm not inclined to dispute anything she says in fact, only that she considers herself above any criticism for it which is de rigeur Wynne hypocrisy.  "I could not save him" means she left the battlefield before she knew Cailan was dead, which means she did abandon the king and flee for her life.

How does it mean that?

Because she didn't say "he was already dead, so we fled for our lives."

She also doesn't say "I'm actually the Archdemon"

edit:  the VO notes I'm referring to is this, from the war council
"Yes, Cailan.  A glorious moment for us all"
VO notes "Said a bit ominously.  Loghain knows that the coming battle is going to mean Cailain's death when he betrays the King"

Modifié par Wulfram, 17 décembre 2010 - 10:19 .