222 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

She also doesn't say "I'm actually the Archdemon"

<_<  Please.  She was trying to justify herself to Loghain, to show how what he did was so terrible while what she did was a horse of a different color.  It would have been a much stronger case to say 'I saw Cailan fall so there was no point in staying."  Instead she simply says she didn't believe she could save him, which is the exact same judgment Loghain makes.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 décembre 2010 - 10:21 .

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...
She also doesn't say "I'm actually the Archdemon"

edit:  the VO notes I'm referring to is this, from the war council
"Yes, Cailan.  A glorious moment for us all"
VO notes "Said a bit ominously.  Loghain knows that the coming battle is going to mean Cailain's death when he betrays the King"

In a conflict between VO notes and DG, I'll take DG everytime since he wrote the story.  So should you.

As for your quip about Wynne and the Achdemon, you are comparing apples to oranges.  Loghain gives Wynne the perfect opening for her to say that she stood in battle and did everything she could for the king but failed and even offers to apologize if that is true [edit for clarity] (knowing full well that it isn't).

The fact that Wynne gives excuses in response tells me (and should tell you) everything you need to know.  The Circle Mages cut and ran.  Perhaps justifiably but they did in fact "quit the field" before the king had died....and it puts Wynne in a rather bad light considering her "post-Ostagar War Story" and hatred of Loghain.

classic Wynpocrisy.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 17 décembre 2010 - 10:33 .

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

<_<  Please.  She was trying to justify herself to Loghain, to show how what he did was so terrible while what she did was a horse of a different color.  It would have been a much stronger case to say 'I saw Cailan fall so there was no point in staying."  Instead she simply says she didn't believe she could save him, which is the exact same judgment Loghain makes.

Except Loghain wasn't busy fighting darkspawn at the time, was he.

Whatever.  It's clear that everything Wynne says is to be assumed hypocritical, no matter how much things have to be twisted to make it so.

[Persephone]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
She also doesn't say "I'm actually the Archdemon"

edit:  the VO notes I'm referring to is this, from the war council
"Yes, Cailan.  A glorious moment for us all"
VO notes "Said a bit ominously.  Loghain knows that the coming battle is going to mean Cailain's death when he betrays the King"

In a conflict between VO notes and DG, I'll take DG everytime since he wrote the story.  So should you.

As for your quip about Wynne and the Achdemon, you are comparing apples to oranges.  Loghain gives Wynne the perfect opening for her to say that she stood in battle and did everything she could for the king but failed and even offers to apologize if that is trying (knowing full well that it isn't).

The fact that Wynne gives excuses in response tells me (and should tell you) everything you need to know.  The Circle Mages cut and ran.  Perhaps justifiably but they did in fact "quit the field" before the king had died....and it puts Wynne in a rather bad light considering her "post-Ostagar War Story" and hatred of Loghain.

classic Wynpocrisy.

-Polaris

This. And there have been other people VERY close to Cailan who quit the field & "left him to die". The RTO deserter explicitly admits to deserting & leaving the king & his men to die.

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

<_<  Please.  She was trying to justify herself to Loghain, to show how what he did was so terrible while what she did was a horse of a different color.  It would have been a much stronger case to say 'I saw Cailan fall so there was no point in staying."  Instead she simply says she didn't believe she could save him, which is the exact same judgment Loghain makes.

Except Loghain wasn't busy fighting darkspawn at the time, was he.

Whatever.  It's clear that everything Wynne says is to be assumed hypocritical, no matter how much things have to be twisted to make it so.

Wynne herself apologizes to Loghain in a banter. Telling, no?

[Wulfram]

Persephone wrote...


Wynne herself apologizes to Loghain in a banter. Telling, no?

No

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

Persephone wrote...


Wynne herself apologizes to Loghain in a banter. Telling, no?

No

Well, if she can see the bigger picture....if only for a moment.... Oh well....

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

Persephone wrote...


Wynne herself apologizes to Loghain in a banter. Telling, no?

No

In that case you don't want to admit what Wynne herself is forced to admit.

-Polaris

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

<_<  Please.  She was trying to justify herself to Loghain, to show how what he did was so terrible while what she did was a horse of a different color.  It would have been a much stronger case to say 'I saw Cailan fall so there was no point in staying."  Instead she simply says she didn't believe she could save him, which is the exact same judgment Loghain makes.

Except Loghain wasn't busy fighting darkspawn at the time, was he.

Whatever.  It's clear that everything Wynne says is to be assumed hypocritical, no matter how much things have to be twisted to make it so.

LOL  No one's twisting anything, I am just taking Wynne at her word.  She felt she had to flee, that she had no choice, and she got out with her life.  Okay, that's fine.  She assumes the worst about Loghain's actions, however.

Of course she's not going to like Loghain since he had an alliance with Uldred and thus contributed to the demise of her precious Circle.  Yet obviously she expects Loghain to have discerned something in Uldred that neither she nor Irving did, i.e. that he was a blood mage and an abomination (not sure if he was already possessed at Ostagar or not).  She also expects him to have pulled a miracle out of his arse to save Cailan when she herself, according to her, only barely got out with her life and by her own estimation could not have done anything to help him.

It reminds me of her Fade dream.  She's standing around with dead apprentices lamenting how she couldn't do anything to save them, but then turns on the Warden and asks all accusatory, "Where were you when this happened?"

Modifié par Addai67, 17 décembre 2010 - 10:37 .

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...
Whatever.  It's clear that everything Wynne says is to be assumed hypocritical, no matter how much things have to be twisted to make it so.

Not everything Wynne says is hypocritical, but I have to say it's a very safe bet to make in most cases.

-Polaris

[atunnei]

[/quote]


The fact that Wynne gives excuses in response tells me (and should tell you) everything you need to know.  The Circle Mages cut and ran.  Perhaps justifiably but they did in fact "quit the field" before the king had died....and it puts Wynne in a rather bad light considering her "post-Ostagar War Story" and hatred of Loghain.


[/quote]

It doesn't tell me that at all. It tells me they fled the field but does not tell me when they fled. I'm playing a HN warden who was upset that he couldn't get to Calian and save him, he had no chance because he was stuck in the tower. 

Just going by the banter between Wynne and Loghain we can only make assumptions we have no facts.

I made the connection that Wynne's silence was from her wondering if Loghain would have rushed into save the King had he had a group of mages at his position. And even if she didn't believe him she still had no reply back to his statement.

All we can say there is Loghain successfully won the argument between Wynne and himself. Not because wynne left the field but because he made a statement that could not be refuted because no one knows what he might have done.

I do see your perspective that Wynne and the Mages fled the battle, I completely understand how one can come to that conclusion. I however see it differently, and neither of us have facts to back up our opinion.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...
LOL  No one's twisting anything, I am just taking Wynne at her word.  She felt she had to flee, that she had no choice, and she got out with her life.  Okay, that's fine.  She assumes the worst about Loghain's actions, however.

Indeed, taking her at her word gives her critics more than enough ammunition.  The criticism here is not that she cut and ran.  Depending on the situation, it's even understandable and defensible (I suspect that the Circle Mages were "outmagiked" by at least 10:1 if not more).  It's her self-serving story about her (implied) heroism coupled with a complete unwillingness to admit that Loghain might also have been in an untenable situation that raises hackles.  It's classic Wynpocrisy, i.e. do as I preach not as I do.  In another life, I am sure that Wynne would have make a terrific Reverend Mother of the chantry.

Of course she's not going to like Loghain since he had an alliance with Uldred and thus contributed to the demise of her precious Circle.  Yet obviously she expects Loghain to have discerned something in Uldred that neither she nor Irving did, i.e. that he was a blood mage and an abomination (not sure if he was already possessed at Ostagar or not).  She also expects him to have pulled a miracle out of his arse to save Cailan when she herself, according to her, only barely got out with her life and by her own estimation could not have done anything to help him.

Indeed, if you read Irving's notes, Irving praises Uldred for his ability and skill at ferretting out blood magic in the circle.  If that isn't bitter irony than nothing is.  Giving that Irving trusted and held Uldred in high regard, it's intensely hypocritical for Wynne to fault Loghain for doing the same.

It reminds me of her Fade dream.  She's standing around with dead apprentices lamenting how she couldn't do anything to save them, but then turns on the Warden and asks all accusatory, "Where were you when all this happened?"

Indeed as well as showing a shocking lack of Fade competance for a mage of her experience and position.  Even Nialle (a simple Mage) does far better than she as does Morrigan.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[quote]atunnei wrote...

[quote]


The fact that Wynne gives excuses in response tells me (and should tell you) everything you need to know.  The Circle Mages cut and ran.  Perhaps justifiably but they did in fact "quit the field" before the king had died....and it puts Wynne in a rather bad light considering her "post-Ostagar War Story" and hatred of Loghain.
[/quote]

[/quote]

It doesn't tell me that at all. It tells me they fled the field but does not tell me when they fled. I'm playing a HN warden who was upset that he couldn't get to Calian and save him, he had no chance because he was stuck in the tower. 
[/quote]

Sure it does.  The Grey Wardens are the only force that didn't cut and run and abandon the king.  Sten says this when he says, "I have heard the stories of Ostagar.  Your kith stood their ground when all others fled.  You can't do any more than that."    Sten is clearly including your Warden and Alistair in that and correctly so.  You (the Warden) did not abandon the King.  The King sent you on a relief mission and you nearly died pulling it off.  At no time do you quit the field (until you are unconscious anyway and that hardly counts).

In short, you were following orders in a battle and suceeding at your mission.  No one (not even Loghain if you talk with him afterwards) faults you for that.

[quote]
Just going by the banter between Wynne and Loghain we can only make assumptions we have no facts.

I made the connection that Wynne's silence was from her wondering if Loghain would have rushed into save the King had he had a group of mages at his position. And even if she didn't believe him she still had no reply back to his statement.

All we can say there is Loghain successfully won the argument between Wynne and himself. Not because wynne left the field but because he made a statement that could not be refuted because no one knows what he might have done.

I do see your perspective that Wynne and the Mages fled the battle, I completely understand how one can come to that conclusion. I however see it differently, and neither of us have facts to back up our opinion. [/quote]

I disagree.  We know what was said, and we know that Loghain gave Wynne every opportunity to say that she stood fast until the King died.  We also have Sten's commentary as well.  We also have the testimony of the king's bodyguard.

Thus I think it is very fair to conclude that the circle mages did in fact cut and run (as did everyone except the Grey Wardens apparently).

-Polaris

[maxernst]

Persephone wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, yeh, the vo notes say how the voice is supposed to sound -- this doesn't signify meaning necessarily (there are plenty of places where the VO notes have the voice contradicting the words and facial animations which gives the line more of an effect). Here are the VO notes;

Loghain: Sound the retreat. (he is a commander giving an order that he knows will mean the death of many, very grim -- but it must be done)
Ser Cauthrien: But... what about the king? Should we not-- (shocked and uncertain)
Loghain: Do as I command. (tersely, she will do as he commands or he WILL KILL HER)
Ser Cauthrien: Pull out! All of you, let's move! (she is turning to shout orders to her men)

Since Ser Cauthrien is Loghain's second-in-command and this is a shock to her, it does seem like it may be more an impromptu thing.

Interestingly, there is another line in there that does not trigger.

pre100cr_soldier_king: My lord! The signal is lit and Loghain's forces have fled. We are betrayed! (shocked and horrified)

I wonder why that was taken out... Or is it just the way the cutscene is designed I wonder as it looks like it should trigger.

Thanks for digging those up ejoslin. My guess is that this was a "worst kind scenario" plan. As is indicated by the "It must be done". I could be wrong, of course.

Actually, I think it was a best case scenario.  He had to be prepared to rush in, just in case there weren't enough Darkspawn to overwhelm Cailan's forces.  If he had retreated and Cailan had won the battle without him, he would have been beheaded for treason.

[Persephone]

maxernst wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, yeh, the vo notes say how the voice is supposed to sound -- this doesn't signify meaning necessarily (there are plenty of places where the VO notes have the voice contradicting the words and facial animations which gives the line more of an effect). Here are the VO notes;

Loghain: Sound the retreat. (he is a commander giving an order that he knows will mean the death of many, very grim -- but it must be done)
Ser Cauthrien: But... what about the king? Should we not-- (shocked and uncertain)
Loghain: Do as I command. (tersely, she will do as he commands or he WILL KILL HER)
Ser Cauthrien: Pull out! All of you, let's move! (she is turning to shout orders to her men)

Since Ser Cauthrien is Loghain's second-in-command and this is a shock to her, it does seem like it may be more an impromptu thing.

Interestingly, there is another line in there that does not trigger.

pre100cr_soldier_king: My lord! The signal is lit and Loghain's forces have fled. We are betrayed! (shocked and horrified)

I wonder why that was taken out... Or is it just the way the cutscene is designed I wonder as it looks like it should trigger.

Thanks for digging those up ejoslin. My guess is that this was a "worst kind scenario" plan. As is indicated by the "It must be done". I could be wrong, of course.

Actually, I think it was a best case scenario.  He had to be prepared to rush in, just in case there weren't enough Darkspawn to overwhelm Cailan's forces.  If he had retreated and Cailan had won the battle without him, he would have been beheaded for treason.

Why tell Cailan NOT to risk himself then?

And remembering that Cailan wasn't just Maric's son....but the son of the only woman Loghain ever loved.... I rather doubt it.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I don't know what was intended by the writers, but going on the debate in this thread, I see no proof that 'the circle cut and run'.



For one thing, I doubt all the mages were clustered around Wynne. Each one was supposed ot be with their own unit. So saying 'the circle did this' is a bit absurd.



The other thing is, Ostagar was a big place. Who knows where the mages were each stationed. According to Wynne she was in the middle of the fighting somewhere. That doesn't mean she was anywhere near Cailan or knew what was happening with him. She probably left when she was personally able to do so. She can't be expected to take the whole horde on by herself. neither could any of the other mages.



Loghain on the other hand was planning something well ahead of Ostagar. Why else would he have Eamon poisoned before they even went to Ostagar? This was mentioned by someone i game. I forget who. possibly Teagan.

[Persephone]

Shinian2 wrote...

Loghain on the other hand was planning something well ahead of Ostagar. Why else would he have Eamon poisoned before they even went to Ostagar? This was mentioned by someone i game. I forget who. possibly Teagan.

He had Eamon sedated because he was plotting against his daughter, the Queen. A sadly cut plotline. Shreds of it remained in RTO. Had little if anything to do with Ostagar. Why would both Duncan & Loghain tell Cailan that waiting for Eamon's forces might not be a bad idea? But noooooooooo........."Eamon's just in it for the glory!". :innocent:

[Esoj16]

First off, why do people defend Loghain? I don't get it, it's clear Loghain planned to abandon the king from the very beginning, he poisoned Eamon, he had Howe attack Highever and allowed him to imprison Vaughn and take over the arling of Denerim, he even allied with Uldred ahead of time so that the circle would support him after the king's death, the evidence is damning.



Secondly, Wynne was injured and so she fled, there was nothing she could do to save Cailan, Loghain didn't even want to get into the fight, even though he had an entire army backing him up, and even if what Wynne did were to be compared to what Loghain did, she regrets it, he does not.



Regicide and treason deserve the death penalty every time......

[BlazingSpeed]

Erika T wrote...

Polaris:-

Why I am convinced that Loghain's actions were premeditated:

1. The Orlais connection - no way he would let Cailan turn to the Orlesian empire
2. He seems only too eager to prove that the wardens are not as useful/great as cailan thinks - that right from the beginning.
3. I am not saying he intended to have the king dead (although possible) from early on. I think he tried to talk Cailan out of being in the battle. I do think he definitely wanted to betray the wardens, to show their uselessness to Cailan?
4. He definitely doesnt think Cailan fills Marics shoes. He wants to be regent himself.
5. when the two wardens are sent to light the torch, he seems suspicious. I dont know what, but something about his behaviour is not right. I ahve to play it again to analyse.
6. He says "Cailans death was his own doing". he regrets it happened, but he knew it would happen, or so it seems to me.. thats what I think anyhow

Add Arl Howe and Arl Eamon to that list even Calian asks why Howe would think that he could get away with murder Polaris said (in an earlier post...) that the Couslands were somehow in on the Cailan/Celene thing even though the third RTO letter (from Celene to Cailan...) is crumped up (which could mean anything as in doubts since Eamon was egging Cailian on to marry Celene and it seemed like Calian didn't want to marry Celene...).

Arl Eamon's son Conner was being trained by Jowan (who posioned Eamon under claims that Eamon had commited treason by Loghain or someone working for Loghain..) during or before Ostagar (Isolde claims that the Arl had been sick for awhile long enough for some of her knights to get all the way to lothering and do research in the library for awhile...).

Loghain was a paranoid fool (Loghain's plan at Ostagar was a disaster from the start but that topic's been done to death on gamefaqs...) a traitor who cut and ran and an idiot (actions after Ostagar...).

Wynne the healer mage (as much as she gets on my nerves...) probably was lucky enough to escape with her life like those wounded Ash warriors and that knight guy that was put in Howes dungeon in Denerim and even that took a while seeing that Uldred made a beeline back to the Circle to declare "The King is dead there is no hope!" unless we join Loghain who miraclously survived the battle.

Nice topic btw better than the ones on gfaqs DA board as crowded as that board is.

Modifié par BlazingSpeed, 18 décembre 2010 - 02:10 .

[BlazingSpeed]

Persephone wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

The mages did not all cut and run. Uldred left early because he was privy to Loghain's plan to abandon Cailan at Ostagar.

That theory falls to pieces, given that David Gaider confirmed that Loghain's retreat was not planned ahead. It was a decision he made based on the delayed signal and much bigger enemy forces.

When did DG say that? I've seen plenty of DG's rumor/theory owning posts here in the past that one shouldn't be that hard to find...

If I do find and record that post many Loghain haters (myself included...) on a few other DA:O board are going to be very upset at a eating crow party at the least.

[Persephone]

Link3521 wrote...

First off, why do people defend Loghain? I don't get it, it's clear Loghain planned to abandon the king from the very beginning, he poisoned Eamon, he had Howe attack Highever and allowed him to imprison Vaughn and take over the arling of Denerim, he even allied with Uldred ahead of time so that the circle would support him after the king's death, the evidence is damning.

Secondly, Wynne was injured and so she fled, there was nothing she could do to save Cailan, Loghain didn't even want to get into the fight, even though he had an entire army backing him up, and even if what Wynne did were to be compared to what Loghain did, she regrets it, he does not.

Regicide and treason deserve the death penalty every time......

Oh, awesome. I thought we were beyond this.......

Why do I defend him? Because he is my favorite character in the game, plain and simple.

Obviously David Gaider disagrees with you, as he confirmed that the retreat at Ostagar was not planned from the start and that Loghain had nothing to do with the Cousland massacre. I don't care at all about Vaughn.

Tactical retreat and following an oath he made to Maric is neither treason nor regicide.

How do you know he does not regret it? I have seen dialogue implying heavily how much that decision cost him. But why am I even saying all this? How can you know his entire character if you kill him every time, anyway? :innocent:

As for Wynne and her moralistic high horse and useless platitudes: I couldn't care less for the meddling hag. Just IMO, of course.

[Persephone]

BlazingSpeed wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

The mages did not all cut and run. Uldred left early because he was privy to Loghain's plan to abandon Cailan at Ostagar.

That theory falls to pieces, given that David Gaider confirmed that Loghain's retreat was not planned ahead. It was a decision he made based on the delayed signal and much bigger enemy forces.

When did DG say that? I've seen plenty of DG's rumor/theory owning posts here in the past that one shouldn't be that hard to find...

If I do find and record that post many Loghain haters (myself included...) on a few other DA:O board are going to be very upset at a eating crow party at the least.

I'll look it up. Maybe someone will beat me to it as I do not have it bookmarked. And why be upset? Is it that enjoyable to hate someone on principle?

[maxernst]

Persephone wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, yeh, the vo notes say how the voice is supposed to sound -- this doesn't signify meaning necessarily (there are plenty of places where the VO notes have the voice contradicting the words and facial animations which gives the line more of an effect). Here are the VO notes;

Loghain: Sound the retreat. (he is a commander giving an order that he knows will mean the death of many, very grim -- but it must be done)
Ser Cauthrien: But... what about the king? Should we not-- (shocked and uncertain)
Loghain: Do as I command. (tersely, she will do as he commands or he WILL KILL HER)
Ser Cauthrien: Pull out! All of you, let's move! (she is turning to shout orders to her men)

Since Ser Cauthrien is Loghain's second-in-command and this is a shock to her, it does seem like it may be more an impromptu thing.

Interestingly, there is another line in there that does not trigger.

pre100cr_soldier_king: My lord! The signal is lit and Loghain's forces have fled. We are betrayed! (shocked and horrified)

I wonder why that was taken out... Or is it just the way the cutscene is designed I wonder as it looks like it should trigger.

Thanks for digging those up ejoslin. My guess is that this was a "worst kind scenario" plan. As is indicated by the "It must be done". I could be wrong, of course.

Actually, I think it was a best case scenario.  He had to be prepared to rush in, just in case there weren't enough Darkspawn to overwhelm Cailan's forces.  If he had retreated and Cailan had won the battle without him, he would have been beheaded for treason.

Why tell Cailan NOT to risk himself then?

And remembering that Cailan wasn't just Maric's son....but the son of the only woman Loghain ever loved.... I rather doubt it.

Seriously, did you think Cailan would heed his advice?  You've just met him and you already know he won't.  So does Loghain.  He gives the advice for show, to make it look like he's concerned with the King's safety.  Anora seems to find the idea that he left Cailan to die deliberately plausible.  Do you know him better than she does or just love him more?

As to DG, i don't give a damn what his intention was.  Had he intended Loghain to be clearly making the decision on the spur of the moment, it could have been dramatized in game easily enough (conferring with Cauthrien on the size of the assault, etc, for example).  It wasn't, therefore it's open to question--and personally, I think the evidence points the other way.  Once a story is written, we read what's there. Maybe we read things the author didn't intend, but so what?  I'm interpreting the story, not trying to mind read David Gaider.

Modifié par maxernst, 18 décembre 2010 - 02:51 .

[BlazingSpeed]

Persephone wrote...

BlazingSpeed wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

The mages did not all cut and run. Uldred left early because he was privy to Loghain's plan to abandon Cailan at Ostagar.

That theory falls to pieces, given that David Gaider confirmed that Loghain's retreat was not planned ahead. It was a decision he made based on the delayed signal and much bigger enemy forces.

When did DG say that? I've seen plenty of DG's rumor/theory owning posts here in the past that one shouldn't be that hard to find...

If I do find and record that post many Loghain haters (myself included...) on a few other DA:O board are going to be very upset at a eating crow party at the least.

I'll look it up. Maybe someone will beat me to it as I do not have it bookmarked. And why be upset? Is it that enjoyable to hate someone on principle?

No it's not it's just that through out the entire game Loghain does nothing but screw up at least he's admit's some of it if you recruit him but with what I posted above and what the guy at the begin of RTO had said it seemed like Loghain was planning something from the start.

Plus, as my avatar picture shows I've played city elves and the village elder gets shipped away because of Loghain he claims he knew the families of the people who died at Ostagar what about all of the other lives that were lost because of your grand standing power play.

Right before the landsmeet if you call him out on Ostagar Loghain balks at the fact that he screwed up at the end of that play through I let Logain take the hit and then I let Alistair take the hit and Alistair didn't even get a freakin furneral let alone a statue in his honor IMO that was just wrong Alistair was the closest thing to the true heir and he saved Ferelden to boot!

Long story long IMO Loghain has a lot more to answer for than Cailan's death even if it wasn't planned Loghain even says so him self well this time my Cousland's gonna take the sleasy way out and Loghain's gonna have to face the people he let down I'll be taking your scheming daugther too Mr, Hero of the river dane where ever you end up this time.

[Persephone]

One thread I'd ask every "Loghain Hater" (Not my choice of words) to read is this:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/583297/1 - The Complete Defense Of Loghain Mac Tir. With several responses by David Gaider.