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[Persephone]

maxernst wrote...

Persephone wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, yeh, the vo notes say how the voice is supposed to sound -- this doesn't signify meaning necessarily (there are plenty of places where the VO notes have the voice contradicting the words and facial animations which gives the line more of an effect). Here are the VO notes;

Loghain: Sound the retreat. (he is a commander giving an order that he knows will mean the death of many, very grim -- but it must be done)
Ser Cauthrien: But... what about the king? Should we not-- (shocked and uncertain)
Loghain: Do as I command. (tersely, she will do as he commands or he WILL KILL HER)
Ser Cauthrien: Pull out! All of you, let's move! (she is turning to shout orders to her men)

Since Ser Cauthrien is Loghain's second-in-command and this is a shock to her, it does seem like it may be more an impromptu thing.

Interestingly, there is another line in there that does not trigger.

pre100cr_soldier_king: My lord! The signal is lit and Loghain's forces have fled. We are betrayed! (shocked and horrified)

I wonder why that was taken out... Or is it just the way the cutscene is designed I wonder as it looks like it should trigger.

Thanks for digging those up ejoslin. My guess is that this was a "worst kind scenario" plan. As is indicated by the "It must be done". I could be wrong, of course.

Actually, I think it was a best case scenario.  He had to be prepared to rush in, just in case there weren't enough Darkspawn to overwhelm Cailan's forces.  If he had retreated and Cailan had won the battle without him, he would have been beheaded for treason.

Why tell Cailan NOT to risk himself then?

And remembering that Cailan wasn't just Maric's son....but the son of the only woman Loghain ever loved.... I rather doubt it.

Seriously, did you think Cailan would heed his advice?  You've just met him and you already know he won't.  So does Loghain.  He gives the advice for show, to make it look like he's concerned with the King's safety.  Anora seems to find the idea that he left Cailan to die deliberately plausible.  Do you know him better than she does or just love him more?

He always has in the past. Anora tells you that Cailan usually saw reason after a while. I don't recall Anora saying that it's plausible, only that the thought of it is unsettling to her.

[Persephone]

BlazingSpeed wrote...

Persephone wrote...

BlazingSpeed wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

The mages did not all cut and run. Uldred left early because he was privy to Loghain's plan to abandon Cailan at Ostagar.

That theory falls to pieces, given that David Gaider confirmed that Loghain's retreat was not planned ahead. It was a decision he made based on the delayed signal and much bigger enemy forces.

When did DG say that? I've seen plenty of DG's rumor/theory owning posts here in the past that one shouldn't be that hard to find...

If I do find and record that post many Loghain haters (myself included...) on a few other DA:O board are going to be very upset at a eating crow party at the least.

I'll look it up. Maybe someone will beat me to it as I do not have it bookmarked. And why be upset? Is it that enjoyable to hate someone on principle?

Long story long IMO Loghain has a lot more to answer for than Cailan's death even if it wasn't planned Loghain even says so him self well this time my Cousland's gonna take the sleasy way out and Loghain's gonna have to face the people he let down I'll be taking your scheming daugther too Mr, Hero of the river dane where ever you end up this time.

Hmmmmmmm...........in my playthrough Alistair did get a monument. Anora even mentions it.

I don't see dying and having one's very soul destroyed as the "easy way out". Taking his daughter where? Have King Alistair execute her or what do you mean?

I don't know how one can be so determined to see a character in just b&w. But let's just agree to disagree.

[Persephone]

A little something to lighten the mood AND it's appropriate, as Loghain has once again conquered a thread that wasn't about him originally:

[maxernst]

Persephone wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Persephone wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, yeh, the vo notes say how the voice is supposed to sound -- this doesn't signify meaning necessarily (there are plenty of places where the VO notes have the voice contradicting the words and facial animations which gives the line more of an effect). Here are the VO notes;

Loghain: Sound the retreat. (he is a commander giving an order that he knows will mean the death of many, very grim -- but it must be done)
Ser Cauthrien: But... what about the king? Should we not-- (shocked and uncertain)
Loghain: Do as I command. (tersely, she will do as he commands or he WILL KILL HER)
Ser Cauthrien: Pull out! All of you, let's move! (she is turning to shout orders to her men)

Since Ser Cauthrien is Loghain's second-in-command and this is a shock to her, it does seem like it may be more an impromptu thing.

Interestingly, there is another line in there that does not trigger.

pre100cr_soldier_king: My lord! The signal is lit and Loghain's forces have fled. We are betrayed! (shocked and horrified)

I wonder why that was taken out... Or is it just the way the cutscene is designed I wonder as it looks like it should trigger.

Thanks for digging those up ejoslin. My guess is that this was a "worst kind scenario" plan. As is indicated by the "It must be done". I could be wrong, of course.

Actually, I think it was a best case scenario.  He had to be prepared to rush in, just in case there weren't enough Darkspawn to overwhelm Cailan's forces.  If he had retreated and Cailan had won the battle without him, he would have been beheaded for treason.

Why tell Cailan NOT to risk himself then?

And remembering that Cailan wasn't just Maric's son....but the son of the only woman Loghain ever loved.... I rather doubt it.

Seriously, did you think Cailan would heed his advice?  You've just met him and you already know he won't.  So does Loghain.  He gives the advice for show, to make it look like he's concerned with the King's safety.  Anora seems to find the idea that he left Cailan to die deliberately plausible.  Do you know him better than she does or just love him more?

He always has in the past. Anora tells you that Cailan usually saw reason after a while. I don't recall Anora saying that it's plausible, only that the thought of it is unsettling to her.

If she were certain it was not true, why would it be unsettling?  As to "seeing reason", in contect,  it really isn't a crazy idea for a king to fight in the front lines.  A reputation for courage was very valuable.  A reputation for cowardice could prove fatal.  So it could even be a win-win, if Cailan goes to the front lines he dies, if he's able to survive only because he played it safe, he might be viewed as a coward and easier to depose if he tries to marry Celene.  And all the better if Loghain has to rescue him.Also, don't forget that the battles to that point had been pretty easy, so Cailan's overconfidence was not completely unjustified by experience, particularly given that he was going to be surrounded by elite troops. 

[Addai]

BlazingSpeed wrote...

When did DG say that? I've seen plenty of DG's rumor/theory owning posts here in the past that one shouldn't be that hard to find...

If I do find and record that post many Loghain haters (myself included...) on a few other DA:O board are going to be very upset at a eating crow party at the least.

Here you go.

I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me for offering some input on something with incomplete knowledge, but my impression is that there is a question about Loghain's intentions prior to Ostagar? If so, I can shed some light on what my thoughts regarding it are. You can take them for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game it's debateable whether that can be taken as truth, after all.

In my mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so forth. But did Loghain plan on killing Cailan?  No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that when that moment of confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won.

That said, he had been fighting the darkspawn for some time in the south with Cailan there, and had already seen what Cailan was capable of. I think he made preparations prior to that last battle for the possibility that he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.

The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy
clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit.  He prepared for the possibility, as he prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then.

There is more in that thread but that basically answers the question.  He had planned for the possibility of having to pull out, but did not go to Ostagar intending to abandon Cailan to die.  But as Gaider said, you have to take it for what it's worth.  For me it's enough.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 décembre 2010 - 03:06 .

[Persephone]

maxernst wrote...

Persephone wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Persephone wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, yeh, the vo notes say how the voice is supposed to sound -- this doesn't signify meaning necessarily (there are plenty of places where the VO notes have the voice contradicting the words and facial animations which gives the line more of an effect). Here are the VO notes;

Loghain: Sound the retreat. (he is a commander giving an order that he knows will mean the death of many, very grim -- but it must be done)
Ser Cauthrien: But... what about the king? Should we not-- (shocked and uncertain)
Loghain: Do as I command. (tersely, she will do as he commands or he WILL KILL HER)
Ser Cauthrien: Pull out! All of you, let's move! (she is turning to shout orders to her men)

Since Ser Cauthrien is Loghain's second-in-command and this is a shock to her, it does seem like it may be more an impromptu thing.

Interestingly, there is another line in there that does not trigger.

pre100cr_soldier_king: My lord! The signal is lit and Loghain's forces have fled. We are betrayed! (shocked and horrified)

I wonder why that was taken out... Or is it just the way the cutscene is designed I wonder as it looks like it should trigger.

Thanks for digging those up ejoslin. My guess is that this was a "worst kind scenario" plan. As is indicated by the "It must be done". I could be wrong, of course.

Actually, I think it was a best case scenario.  He had to be prepared to rush in, just in case there weren't enough Darkspawn to overwhelm Cailan's forces.  If he had retreated and Cailan had won the battle without him, he would have been beheaded for treason.

Why tell Cailan NOT to risk himself then?

And remembering that Cailan wasn't just Maric's son....but the son of the only woman Loghain ever loved.... I rather doubt it.

Seriously, did you think Cailan would heed his advice?  You've just met him and you already know he won't.  So does Loghain.  He gives the advice for show, to make it look like he's concerned with the King's safety.  Anora seems to find the idea that he left Cailan to die deliberately plausible.  Do you know him better than she does or just love him more?

He always has in the past. Anora tells you that Cailan usually saw reason after a while. I don't recall Anora saying that it's plausible, only that the thought of it is unsettling to her.

If she were certain it was not true, why would it be unsettling?  As to "seeing reason", in contect,  it really isn't a crazy idea for a king to fight in the front lines.  A reputation for courage was very valuable.  A reputation for cowardice could prove fatal.  So it could even be a win-win, if Cailan goes to the front lines he dies, if he's able to survive only because he played it safe, he might be viewed as a coward and easier to depose if he tries to marry Celene.  And all the better if Loghain has to rescue him.Also, don't forget that the battles to that point had been pretty easy, so Cailan's overconfidence was not completely unjustified by experience, particularly given that he was going to be surrounded by elite troops. 

Because the very idea of one's father doing something like that IS unsettling, true or not. It is a crazy idea for a king without an heir. A king who is only the second of his line after the occupation.

[Ryzaki]

Holy quote pyramids batman!



XD



Though yes Loghain is stealing threads again isn't he?

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

BlazingSpeed wrote...

When did DG say that? I've seen plenty of DG's rumor/theory owning posts here in the past that one shouldn't be that hard to find...

If I do find and record that post many Loghain haters (myself included...) on a few other DA:O board are going to be very upset at a eating crow party at the least.

Here you go.

I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me for offering some input on something with incomplete knowledge, but my impression is that there is a question about Loghain's intentions prior to Ostagar? If so, I can shed some light on what my thoughts regarding it are. You can take them for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game it's debateable whether that can be taken as truth, after all.

In my mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so forth. But did Loghain plan on killing Cailan?  No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that when that moment of confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won.

That said, he had been fighting the darkspawn for some time in the south with Cailan there, and had already seen what Cailan was capable of. I think he made preparations prior to that last battle for the possibility that he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.

The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy
clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit.  He prepared for the possibility, as he prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then.

There is more in that thread but that basically answers the question.  He had planned for the possibility of having to pull out, but did not go to Ostagar intending to abandon Cailan to die.  But as he said, you have to take it for what it's worth.  For me it's enough.

The same here. One has to dig a little deeper to see the subtle details. Loghain does not betray much emotion but WHEN he does (I.E. being accused of letting Cailan die at the Landsmeet), it's genuine. There is even a line that never made it into RTO (Cut? Badly coded?) going "I did not want to see this happen to Cailan."

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Holy quote pyramids batman!

XD

Though yes Loghain is stealing threads again isn't he?

Isn't he always? 

[maxernst]

As to Wynne...she does make it sound like she fled the battle (along with the other circle mages) under attack before the King was dead. Whether that's before Loghain left the field or not is hard to say, but their circumstances are hardly comparable. One person trying to charge through the battlefield is very unlikely to accomplish anything other than her own death, even if she is a powerful mage. Maybe if she had been able to rally all the mages, but there were only a handful of them (maybe we should blame the Chantry for Ostagar). Assuming they had a sensible battle plan, the mages would have been some distance from the front line and had heavy infantry in front of them. I would guess that the mages fled when the infantry line was breaking, and they were at risk of finding themselves in a melee against overwhelming numbers. It would have been really hard for them to get to the King. I can say from the cut scene that the people on the field were getting overwhelmed and routed, and that no individual could have done much about it, even a mage. I can't say with any confidence what would have happened had Loghain charged. Maybe it would still have been a rout. Maybe it would have been a Pyrrhic victory and Cailan and the wardens would have died, but the horde would have been stopped. Maybe the Archdemon would have shown up and killed everybody or maybe Duncan would have killed the Archdemon and the Darkspawn scatered. Maybe they would still have lost, but been able to retreat with more troops when the impact of the charge disorganzied the Darkspawn. It's really unknowable and I'm not going to take the word of one guy in RtO as gospel. Wynne feels pretty strongly that Loghain betrayed the King and she was there, too. So does Flemeth, who probably had the best view of the battlefield. Hell, Flemeth probably knew Loghain would retreat before Loghain did.



I don't see anything particularly strange about being able to return to the battlefield to tend wounded after the fact. Ostagar's a mountainous area. It would be easy to run away and hide from the Darkspawn and return later, after the Darkspawn had moved through. They either found some who were left alive by the Darkspawn or they found some wounded men who had been mobile enough to run away and hide as well.

[maxernst]

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

BlazingSpeed wrote...

Here you go.

. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.

The same here. One has to dig a little deeper to see the subtle details. Loghain does not betray much emotion but WHEN he does (I.E. being accused of letting Cailan die at the Landsmeet), it's genuine. There is even a line that never made it into RTO (Cut? Badly coded?) going "I did not want to see this happen to Cailan."

How you respond to cut scenes is subjective.  I didn't see him reacting emotionally to the accusation at the Landsmeet at all.  I don't recall him showing any genuine emotion at the Landsmeet until he says goodbye to Anora.  Well, I guess you could say he sounded sincere when he said that he would die leaving Ferelden in good hands, but it seemed like such a pathologically strange thing to say about someone you thought was an Orlesian agent five minutes ago, I found it jarring and unconvincing.  

On the other hand, I thought it was extremely obvious at the planning meeting for Ostagar that Loghain planned to betray him.  So much so, in fact, that it pissed me off that they had given it away and I think my first post here was a rant about it.  He might as well have worn a T-shirt saying "Hi, I'm the Villain".

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...

On the other hand, I thought it was extremely obvious at the planning meeting for Ostagar that Loghain planned to betray him.  So much so, in fact, that it pissed me off that they had given it away and I think my first post here was a rant about it.  He might as well have worn a T-shirt saying "Hi, I'm the Villain".

And it's fine if you choose to limit yourself only to your impressions from the cutscenes.  I prefer the fuller picture given by the writer.

[BlazingSpeed]

I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me for offering some input
on something with incomplete knowledge, but my impression is that there
is a question about Loghain's intentions prior to Ostagar? If so, I can
shed some light on what my thoughts regarding it are. You can take them
for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game
it's debateable whether that can be taken as truth, after all.

In my mind, Loghain did not go to
Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however,
that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly
centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving
to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so
forth. But did Loghain plan on killing Cailan?
No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and
trying to ensure that when that moment of confrontation with Cailan came
the battle was already won.

That said, he had been fighting the
darkspawn for some time in the south with Cailan there, and had already
seen what Cailan was capable of. I think he made preparations prior to
that last battle for the possibility that
he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he
would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and
in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his
kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up
to you.

There is also the matter of his association with Arl
Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes
for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought
that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably
never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate
him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's
involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed
together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly
so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is
made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is
because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save
Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does
not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.

Hope that makes sense, although I understand the topic of conversation here has gone in a lot of different directions.

Wow, I read through a good ten pages in that topic and even the TC of Loghain's defense missed what I put in bold so DG said that Loghain didn't have anything to do with the Cousland murder but Loghain did poison Eamon beyond a shadow of a doubt based on in game evidence and the fact Loghain was planning a coup against Cailan not even knowing about the RTO letters HM.....

Geez, Loghain really made a lot of blunders in the DA game and even in the books accord to DG IE "Word of God" like the toolset convo comment claims (which go both ways in that arguement...).

Back to Full of Wynne oh wait I already said that part it's highly debateable at this point..

Modifié par BlazingSpeed, 18 décembre 2010 - 03:37 .

[Persephone]

Whatever. IMO David Gaider knows HIS characters better than anyone. So pardon me for taking his thoughts over yours.^^

[Persephone]

Mezzil wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Whatever. IMO David Gaider knows HIS characters better than anyone. So pardon me for taking his thoughts over yours.^^

Loghain is Mary Kirby's character.

Who wrote the novels again? On which Loghain was based? David Gaider.

[Addai]

Mezzil wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Whatever. IMO David Gaider knows HIS characters better than anyone. So pardon me for taking his thoughts over yours.^^

Loghain is Mary Kirby's character.

In-game yes, but he wrote him for the two companion novels and knows the character very well.

[Sabariel]

Loghain set some Orlesian kittens on fire for looking at him funny. I just can't forgive him for that one.

[Persephone]

Sabariel wrote...

Loghain set some Orlesian kittens on fire for looking at him funny. I just can't forgive him for that one.

That DID make me LOL.

[Sabariel]

Persephone wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Loghain set some Orlesian kittens on fire for looking at him funny. I just can't forgive him for that one.

That DID make me LOL.

Why else would the cat army be in Denerim? They wanted to avenge their fallen comrades :innocent:

[Persephone]

Sabariel wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Loghain set some Orlesian kittens on fire for looking at him funny. I just can't forgive him for that one.

That DID make me LOL.

Why else would the cat army be in Denerim? They wanted to avenge their fallen comrades :innocent:

Led by Demon Kitty. Oh wait..,...that's another DLC.

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

On the other hand, I thought it was extremely obvious at the planning meeting for Ostagar that Loghain planned to betray him.  So much so, in fact, that it pissed me off that they had given it away and I think my first post here was a rant about it.  He might as well have worn a T-shirt saying "Hi, I'm the Villain".

And it's fine if you choose to limit yourself only to your impressions from the cutscenes.  I prefer the fuller picture given by the writer.

I prefer to go by what my character experiences and what seems most logical.  While I can see that from a character perspective, Loghain's personal story arc works better if he's more sympathetic, from a plot perspective, the whole thing makes a lot more sense (and Loghain seems a hell of a lot smarter), if everything went according to long prepared plans.  He wants to stage a coup, so he poisons Eamon and has Howe murder the Couslands, eliminating probably the most powerful rivals and allying with perhaps the third.  I don't know how high Howe rated before Highever, but he was an Arl.  Ostagar gives him a convenient way of getting rid of Cailan without bloodying his own hands.  He needs to get rid of the remaining Grey Wardens because one of them might be a rival claimant to the throne.  There are no plot holes, everything's internally consistent and Loghain's plan is smart--except that the Darkspawn are a much bigger threat than he realizes and the Warden considerably more determined.  I'll grant that it doesn't fit very well with Loghain's reputation, but if he had any inkling that Cailan might marry Celene, that seems like enough to push him round the bend to me.

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

Mezzil wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Whatever. IMO David Gaider knows HIS characters better than anyone. So pardon me for taking his thoughts over yours.^^

Loghain is Mary Kirby's character.

In-game yes, but he wrote him for the two companion novels and knows the character very well.

Perhaps, but maybe Mary Kirby and Simon Templman had other ideas. 

[Persephone]

maxernst wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

On the other hand, I thought it was extremely obvious at the planning meeting for Ostagar that Loghain planned to betray him.  So much so, in fact, that it pissed me off that they had given it away and I think my first post here was a rant about it.  He might as well have worn a T-shirt saying "Hi, I'm the Villain".

And it's fine if you choose to limit yourself only to your impressions from the cutscenes.  I prefer the fuller picture given by the writer.

I prefer to go by what my character experiences and what seems most logical.  While I can see that from a character perspective, Loghain's personal story arc works better if he's more sympathetic, from a plot perspective, the whole thing makes a lot more sense (and Loghain seems a hell of a lot smarter), if everything went according to long prepared plans.  He wants to stage a coup, so he poisons Eamon and has Howe murder the Couslands, eliminating probably the most powerful rivals and allying with perhaps the third.  I don't know how high Howe rated before Highever, but he was an Arl.  Ostagar gives him a convenient way of getting rid of Cailan without bloodying his own hands.  He needs to get rid of the remaining Grey Wardens because one of them might be a rival claimant to the throne.  There are no plot holes, everything's internally consistent and Loghain's plan is smart--except that the Darkspawn are a much bigger threat than he realizes and the Warden considerably more determined.  I'll grant that it doesn't fit very well with Loghain's reputation, but if he had any inkling that Cailan might marry Celene, that seems like enough to push him round the bend to me.

Since neither my personal impressions nor David Gaider support much of this, I can't agree with it. He isn't at has never been a cardboard villain. IMO anyway.