222 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wonderful, now we can't agree on what's canon, making any debate even more useless than it is. As if DA:O needed something else to kill it.

I don't often agree with you KoP, but I do in this.  If the damn author says that character X had (or did not have) Y motivation, then that's a fact in his world and that makes it canon and all future speculation on that point should cease.  DG wrote the story, not us.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea, I got sick of Star Wars because its author happens to be a ******, coupled with most others.
Still doesn't change what is canon, and what I think ought to have been canon. So I simply stopped caring.

Play the game however you want, if we can't agree on the premise that authors happen to know their story and game better than us, there is no point discussing anything,

Ah true. If you take WoG as canon and I don't we won't be able to discuss anything because I'll use the just the game while you'll use Gaider's words.

And words mean nothing if they're not in the book/game to begin with.

Edit: To me anyways.

2nd Edit: I wonder how long it'll take before we get into a debate about what should be considered canon? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 décembre 2010 - 04:49 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Simplifying a key moment/turning point in the game. Oh, I realize the meaning of the .

I didn't see that as a key moment. Just something that needed to hurry up and get over with.

Now they key moment I felt was Morrigan's deal. That was key.

And hey turnabout is fair play. You don't reduce me to a bloodthirsty fanatic and I won't reduce you to a simpering fangirl. A fair exchange no? 

Certainly. Though I don't believe I was referring to you. I was speaking interpretations in that vein.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

Certainly. Though I don't believe I was referring to you. I was speaking interpretations in that vein.

Ah okay.

Can I get a hug now?

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Certainly. Though I don't believe I was referring to you. I was speaking interpretations in that vein.

Ah okay.

Can I get a hug now?

You'd hug a Loggy fan? A Loggy fan who writes Loggy fan fiction? :happy:

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...
You'd hug a Loggy fan? A Loggy fan who writes Loggy fan fiction? :happy:

Well yeah. You're not Loghain in disguise are you? *squints in suspicion*

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea, I got sick of Star Wars because its author happens to be a ******, coupled with most others.
Still doesn't change what is canon, and what I think ought to have been canon. So I simply stopped caring.

Play the game however you want, if we can't agree on the premise that authors happen to know their story and game better than us, there is no point discussing anything,

Ah true. If you take WoG as canon and I don't we won't be able to discuss anything because I'll use the just the game while you'll use Gaider's words.

And words mean nothing if they're not in the book/game to begin with.

Yea, see? That's what I am talking about.

It ends up being us fool who ignore the game completely and resort to writer comments only (even if I was thinking the same in my first playthrough without reading anything and that has been my debating position since day 1), vs people like you who understood the game exactly as it is and all other interpretations happen to be wrong, including the author's opinions. 

WoG is exterior evidence to to prove some theories right and others wrong. That is the only way by which interpretations can be proven wrong. And it happened, and all interpretations that deviate from what Gaider said are wrong out-game.
In-game, your character can believe whatever they want.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 décembre 2010 - 04:52 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...
You'd hug a Loggy fan? A Loggy fan who writes Loggy fan fiction? :happy:

Well yeah. You're not Loghain in disguise are you? *squints in suspicion*

*Looks down* Female. 30 years old. A tad chubby. Long red hair. No. Not Loghain.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea, see? That's what I am talking about.

It ends up being us fool who ignore the game completely and resort to writer comments only (even if I was thinking the same in my first playthrough without reading anything and that has been my debating position since day 1), vs people like you who understood the game exactly as it is and all other interpretations happen to be wrong, including the author's opinions. 

WoG is exterior evidence to to prove some theories right and others wrong. That is the only way by which interpretations can be proven wrong. And it happened, and all interpretations that deviate from what Gaider said are wrong out-game.
In-ganme, your character can believe whatever they want.  

*sighs* 

Yeah this isnt going to work because being a know it all isn't my intention. I'm sorry if I gave you the view that I thought "I knew how everything went down."

Urgh. I'm going to stop before I rant.

Persephone wrote...

*Looks down* Female. 30 years old. A tad chubby. Long red hair. No. Not Loghain. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]

*poke* 

Okay.

*huggles* 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 décembre 2010 - 04:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nevermind me, I just woke up from a long nap, with a headache and my download of the Napoleon miniseries is very slow. Add that I wasted time downloading the English version first, which I hate.

<--- is in a bad mood.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 décembre 2010 - 04:57 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nevermind me, I just woke up from a long nap, with a headache and my download of the Napoleon miniseries is very slow. Add that I wasted time downloading the English version first, which I hate.

<--- is in a bad mood.

Huh. It's a good thing I stopped the rant because I'm pretty crabby myself.

I'm going to play ME for a while.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nevermind me, I just woke up from a long nap, with a headache and my download of the Napoleon miniseries is very slow. Add that I wasted time downloading the English version first, which I hate.

<--- is in a bad mood.

Sorry to hear that.

Cheer-up-soon offering: 

[IanPolaris]

maxernst wrote...

As to Wynne...she does make it sound like she fled the battle (along with the other circle mages) under attack before the King was dead. Whether that's before Loghain left the field or not is hard to say, but their circumstances are hardly comparable. One person trying to charge through the battlefield is very unlikely to accomplish anything other than her own death, even if she is a powerful mage. Maybe if she had been able to rally all the mages, but there were only a handful of them (maybe we should blame the Chantry for Ostagar). Assuming they had a sensible battle plan, the mages would have been some distance from the front line and had heavy infantry in front of them. I would guess that the mages fled when the infantry line was breaking, and they were at risk of finding themselves in a melee against overwhelming numbers. It would have been really hard for them to get to the King. I can say from the cut scene that the people on the field were getting overwhelmed and routed, and that no individual could have done much about it, even a mage.

I don't disagree with any of this and I don't necessarily fault the circle mages for cutting and running when the king was still alive.  I merely note (as does Loghain) that they did so.  It does rather severely undercut Wynne's self-ascribed moral authority when dealing with Loghain....more than a little. 

I can't say with any confidence what would have happened had Loghain charged. Maybe it would still have been a rout. Maybe it would have been a Pyrrhic victory and Cailan and the wardens would have died, but the horde would have been stopped. Maybe the Archdemon would have shown up and killed everybody or maybe Duncan would have killed the Archdemon and the Darkspawn scatered. Maybe they would still have lost, but been able to retreat with more troops when the impact of the charge disorganzied the Darkspawn. It's really unknowable and I'm not going to take the word of one guy in RtO as gospel.

It's pretty much confirmed (and more than by that one guy) that the batle was lost because the darkspawn horde was so much more massive than anyone (except maybe Duncan) could have imagined.  If Alistair is there instead of Duncun and the King's Confidant says this in RTO, Alistair doesn't deny it....nor does Wynne if she is there.  Basically (and Loghain can make hay on this in the landmeet if you are dumb enough to challenge him in this way), Loghain was faced with a militarily impossible situation and managed to pull half the Fereldan army out of it.  The way he did so was definately self-serving and I do think that Loghain was guilty of treason (because I do think he was planning a palace coup of some kind), but at no time do I think Loghain with malice aforethought intended to kill Cailain, and DG (who determines what is and isn't canon) agrees with me on this. 

Wynne feels pretty strongly that Loghain betrayed the King and she was there, too. So does Flemeth, who probably had the best view of the battlefield. Hell, Flemeth probably knew Loghain would retreat before Loghain did.

People feel a lot of things at time that aren't so.  As for Flemeth, Flemeth herself will tell you that she isn't a mind reader and Flemeth by her very nature will leap to the worst possible conclusions about anyone given half a chance.  Also I do think that Loghain made the most personal political hay from a bad situation....but that doesn't make him a regicide (although I do think Loghain has crossed the fuzzy line into treason).

I don't see anything particularly strange about being able to return to the battlefield to tend wounded after the fact. Ostagar's a mountainous area. It would be easy to run away and hide from the Darkspawn and return later, after the Darkspawn had moved through. They either found some who were left alive by the Darkspawn or they found some wounded men who had been mobile enough to run away and hide as well.

You don't?  Go back and reread Wynne's lines in the tower again.  Apparently she was so badly wounded and exhausted that she couldn't make it back to the tower until long after Ostagar, yet she somehow had the energy to play survivalist against a bunch of hungry and vicious darkspawn that are particularly looking for grey-wardens, mages, and women.....and then somehow managed to set up a field hospital and treat the wounded.

Rubbish.  Wynne cut and ran, and then hid afraid for her life for months before slinking back to the tower with her proverbial tail between her legs.  She might have healed a soldier or two in the process, but don't you believe Wynne's self-serving story as gospel.  It doesn't add up.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nevermind me, I just woke up from a long nap, with a headache and my download of the Napoleon miniseries is very slow. Add that I wasted time downloading the English version first, which I hate.

<--- is in a bad mood.

Sorry to hear that.

Cheer-up-soon offering: 

Nice, but couldn't you shift Loghain's head to the left and Duncan's to the right just a little bit????



-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Sorry to hear that.

Cheer-up-soon offering: 

LOL, that actually worked.

[Zjarcal]

Hey, now that we have Arcuturs screenshots we need to add his face to that pic!

Modifié par Zjarcal, 18 décembre 2010 - 05:11 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

Hey, now that we have Arcuturs screenshots we need to add his face to that pic!

That would cause an overdose.

Besides, part 1 is finished and it being in French made me happy.
Napoleon speaking English is not the same. He's the only guy who manages to make French sound badass. 

[maxernst]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea, I got sick of Star Wars because its author happens to be a ******, coupled with most others.
Still doesn't change what is canon, and what I think ought to have been canon. So I simply stopped caring.

Play the game however you want, if we can't agree on the premise that authors happen to know their story and game better than us, there is no point discussing anything,

Ah true. If you take WoG as canon and I don't we won't be able to discuss anything because I'll use the just the game while you'll use Gaider's words.

And words mean nothing if they're not in the book/game to begin with.

It ends up being us fool who ignore the game completely and resort to writer comments only (even if I was thinking the same in my first playthrough without reading anything and that has been my debating position since day 1), vs people like you who understood the game exactly as it is and all other interpretations happen to be wrong, including the author's opinions. 

WoG is exterior evidence to to prove some theories right and others wrong. That is the only way by which interpretations can be proven wrong. And it happened, and all interpretations that deviate from what Gaider said are wrong out-game.
In-game, your character can believe whatever they want.  

I have never said that other interpretations are wrong, nor has Ryzaki.  YOU';RE the one who says that once WOG has spoken no other interpretation is valid.  In fact, I reject the very notion of "proving" a literary interpretation.  Hell, motivations of real people can never be proven, let alone fictional ones.

The problem raised by claiming the author's intent = works meaning are several.  Firstly, it means that there is one true interpretation and all others are wrong, which frankly, I think can only be true of very simple and uninteresting works, that aren't worth debating in the first place.  Secondly, it assumes that all authors perfectly convey their intent in their work.  If I find the portrayal of a character inconsistent in a novel, it means that I am somehow failing to understand the book.  Finally, it assumes the author is telling the truth.  He could be lying.  He could have changed his mind partway through.  I remember Bono talking once about how he "discovered" what a song he had written was about when he was thinking about making a video for it. 

And, by the way, it's very kind of you to permit me to believe what I want in game.

Modifié par maxernst, 18 décembre 2010 - 05:27 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

maxernst wrote...
I have never said that other interpretations are wrong, nor has Ryzaki.  YOU';RE the one who says that once WOG has spoken no other interpretation is valid.  

Out-game, absolutely. In-game, all interpretations are valid.

maxernst wrote...
Hell, motivations of real people can never be proven, let alone fictional ones.

Because real people don't have their creator come and tell you what motivation they created for them  and what for.

maxernst wrote...
The problem raised by claiming the author's intent = works meaning are several.  Firstly, it means that there is one true interpretation and all others are wrong, which frankly, I think can only be true of very simple and uninteresting works, that aren't worth debating in the first place.  

Agreed, if authors go out of their way to tell us about every single thing. They didn't in that case, they are explaining what they had in mind for a specific character, while keeping it ambiguous (one can still believe Loghain deserves execution despite everything).
In real life, we can often be wrong when it comes to judging people, but with legitimate reasons. Misjudging Loghain has very legitimate reasons. It doesn't change the fact that it is a misjudgement.

Which is fine, I misjudged some characters too.

maxernst wrote...
Secondly, it assumes that all authors perfectly convey their intent in their work.  If I find the portrayal of a character inconsistent in a novel, it means that I am somehow failing to understand the book. 

If others are not finding inconsistencies, then yea maybe.
Ambiguity =/= inconsistency.

maxernst wrote...
Finally, it assumes the author is telling the truth.  He could be lying.  He could have changed his mind partway through.  I remember Bono talking once about how he "discovered" what a song he had written was about when he was thinking about making a video for it. 

I really fail to see what Gaider gains by lying. But eh, whatever.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 décembre 2010 - 05:36 .

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

Personally I take a "The writer is dead" approach. Writers aren't gods and sometimes will make up things on the fly. Not saying Gaider did but I've been burned once and never again. What I interpret from the game/book/movie is what I base my opinion on. Not some messages in a forum or an interview.

Well, the reader is dead, too.  As I've said all along, you're free to form your own opinion.  The game writers encourage that, in fact.  But I'll continue to take the writers' character notes into consideration myself.

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...
Well, the reader is dead, too.  As I've said all along, you're free to form your own opinion.  The game writers encourage that, in fact.  But I'll continue to take the writers' character notes into consideration myself.

And did I say anything about you? I was simply talking about my own opinion.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 décembre 2010 - 06:24 .

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Well, the reader is dead, too.  As I've said all along, you're free to form your own opinion.  The game writers encourage that, in fact.  But I'll continue to take the writers' character notes into consideration myself.

And did I say anything about you? I was simply talking about my own opinion.

And I'm telling you what my approach is.

I find it presumptuous of people to say that they know more about a character's inner workings than the writer.  And in a debate, the writer's words should have more weight than any individual reader IMO.  Even when I find it hard to go along with DG, I take what he says about the story as law.

Not sure what all this has to do with Wynne anyway.  She doesn't know Loghain's mind.  She only thinks she knows the truth, but as per usual with her, she's going to lecture you about it anyway.

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

And I'm telling you what my approach is.

I find it presumptuous of people to say that they know more about a character's inner workings than the writer.  And in a debate, the writer's words should have more weight than any individual reader IMO.  Even when I find it hard to go along with DG, I take what he says about the story as law.

Not sure what all this has to do with Wynne anyway.  She doesn't know Loghain's mind.  She only thinks she knows the truth, but as per usual with her, she's going to lecture you about it anyway.

And I find it presumptous of people to simply go "He knows everything even though it's open to interpretation!"

Also...that's all like your opinion man.

So I'll just leave it at that.

LOL that is very true about Wynne though I find myself liking that about her.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 décembre 2010 - 06:35 .

[Sabariel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wonderful, now we can't agree on what's canon, making any debate even more useless than it is. As if DA:O needed something else to kill it.

Flaming Orlesian kittens is the only thing that's canon. Everything else is subjective

[Ryzaki]

Sabariel wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wonderful, now we can't agree on what's canon, making any debate even more useless than it is. As if DA:O needed something else to kill it.

Flaming Orlesian kittens is the only thing that's canon. Everything else is subjective

Thanks for that I needed a laugh.

Edit: On topic how exactly did Wynne escape Ostagar? Does she explain?

/if she did I forgot that convo.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 décembre 2010 - 07:13 .