222 réponses à ce sujet

[CalJones]

Her magical Fade spirit saved her.
I'm assuming the mages were positioned in a place they could retreat from, seeing as Uldred got out as well. She says she stuck around to heal the wounded but I'd assume she got somewhere safe with the other survivors and helped them there.

[Ryzaki]

That makes sense.



I wish DAO's timeline wasn't so screwed up. Alas.

[IanPolaris]

CalJones wrote...

Her magical Fade spirit saved her.
I'm assuming the mages were positioned in a place they could retreat from, seeing as Uldred got out as well. She says she stuck around to heal the wounded but I'd assume she got somewhere safe with the other survivors and helped them there.

This as I've pointed out before is a large assumption (not surving the initial battle so much although that would be a lot harder for mages than for Joe Soldier since mages are priority targets), but the rest.

To answer the question from the prior page, Wynne "explains" how she escaped when you meet her in the tower and ask her how it all began.  She then goes into the Myth of Heroic Healer Wynne, badly wounded at Ostagar gallantly stays behind in the face of the darkspawn saving what can be saved while the vile Uldred cowardly rushes back to the circle and sells out in favor of the vile traitor Loghain.

OK, I am being slightly sardonic, but she really is ALMOST that unbearably smug as she relates her tale.

Unfortunately in light of what really happened (as revealed by Loghain), Wynne's story falls apart faster than wet toilet paper.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...
There were several survivors from Ostegar and total annihilation rarely occurs in battles.  So what, Wynne survived, Loghain quit the field, Eamon was poisoned and Howe's men dawdled around Ferelden while the battle raged.  None of that alters the Wardens task which is to defeat the blight.

Again, sigh, the issue I'm having is not with Wynne's survival per se (although it would be harder for a mage than for Joe Soldier) just as I didn't have any real problem with Uldred's survival.  The problem I have is with Wynne's narrative.

Again what I think really happened is that Wynne fled the battle (perhaps to be fair her position was about to be overrun) and then hid in the wilderness for months on end.  Maybe she got injured but if so it would have to been have been slight or there's no way an unskilled person could have played survivalist in the mountains with darkspawn looking for them.  Perhaps she used a heal spell or two on passing soldiers, but that hardly constitutes "staying behind to take care of the wounded".

See the point yet?  Wynne's implied heroic narrative simply falls apart like wet toilet paper under any kind of scrutiny.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...

Your belief does not constitute evidence.  Pony up the evidence or I'll simply take your posts as opinion.

ETA

I'd appreciate it if you didn't use selective quotes.  My first sentence accuses both Wynne and Loghain of revisionism.

Then stop misrepresenting what I am saying!

I am NOT saying it's impossible that Wynne survived.  What I am saying is that her narrative about being so badly spend and wounded that she wasn't mobile, but somehow also "stayed behind to help the wounded" doesn't fly in a wilderness area filled with darkspawn.

Yes I am speculating about the exact chain of events, but unlike you I am using information both sides agree upon to make that projection (i.e. the circle mages did break and run early in the battle).

Saying it's almost impossible for a badly wounded person to survive in the howling wilderness in the middle of a hostile occupation is not much of an opinion.  It's a generally regarded as a fact at least by those that do rescue work for a living.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...

I don't find her survival in the slightest bit unusual:  ...

You obviously have never done it then.  I have.  Ostagar seems to be a mountainous region very similiar to the Southern Canadien Rockies.  If I were to dump you right now as you are in such an environment chances are extremely good that you'd be dead within 48 hours.

That's just the way life is.  Unprotected, unprepared, and inexperienced (and circle mages would certainly be inexperienced in survival situations) tend to do.....badly.  That's the edited version for kiddies.

Sure Wynne is a mage, but I have yet to see a spell that can purify water in the game, find game, etc and we know that Wynne has no fire spells.

In addition to that by her own account, she is so badly wounded that she can't move! (At least not enough to leave the area).  That makes her survival chances in such a situation almost nil.

The same would have applies to your PC, but your PC got help and reprovisioning.

Sorry but Wynne's story (not just her survival but her circle heroic sob story) just doesn't fly.

-Polaris

[Sarah1281]

I don't think Wynne painted a lovely story of heroism.

PC: Can you tell me how all this trouble started?



Wynne: Ah, a long story. It all started when I returned from Ostagar. I was at that ill-fated battle and I survived, barely. I was in no state to travel, so I stayed at Ostagar to recuperate and help the wounded. Uldred, on the other hand, left for the tower almost immediately. When I finally returned here I found that Uldred had all but convinced the Circle to join Loghain, the man who nearly destroyed us all!

Wynne was injured. We don't know how much. Saying she "survived, barely" doesn't necessarily mean she was at death's door, just that she narrowly got away from the battle and was wounded. She couldn't leave because she was not in a state to travel from Ostagar all the way to the Circle. You've already pointed out how difficult it would be to travel and she's old and was hurt. While she was already staying put to recover, she decided to not just sit around and stare at the other injured people but rather try to help them. That's just basic human decency there, not an epic tale of Wynne the Hero.

[Wirdjos5]

It seems something big is missing here.

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't think Wynne painted a lovely story of heroism.

PC: Can you tell me how all this trouble started?

Wynne: Ah, a long story. It all started when I returned from Ostagar. I was at that ill-fated battle and I survived, barely. I was in no state to travel, so I stayed at Ostagar to recuperate and help the wounded. Uldred, on the other hand, left for the tower almost immediately. When I finally returned here I found that Uldred had all but convinced the Circle to join Loghain, the man who nearly destroyed us all!

If that is meant to be believed in the very slightest, it means that there was some sort of Darkspawn-free camp in the area of Ostagar. If that is true, all that is required for Wynne to have survived Ostagar is that she was knocked unconscious at some point and dragged off to the camp. She would likely have woken up there after the battle was lost and could have healed others while she was healing. It is possible that Ostagar post-battle was not a Darkspawn overrun hole as we have been lead to believe. That would change everything.

Edited to fix quotes.

Modifié par Wirdjos5, 18 décembre 2010 - 11:15 .

[Wirdjos5]

My point was not that survivors just escaped, but that it was likely that these were more than just stragglers. The force at Ostagar was likely completely routed, however they had a place to retreat to and did. Wynne's comment suggests a regrouping after Ostagar and would mean questions of how Wynne hid from the Darkspawn are no longer relevant. She would only need to have left Ostagar before it was completely overrun, which it sounds that she was able to do at a leisurely pace.

[Sabariel]

Maybe Wynne and the other soldiers hid in the bushes until the darkspawn were done eating and kidnapping everyone else

[IanPolaris]

Wirdjos5 wrote...

My point was not that survivors just escaped, but that it was likely that these were more than just stragglers. The force at Ostagar was likely completely routed, however they had a place to retreat to and did. Wynne's comment suggests a regrouping after Ostagar and would mean questions of how Wynne hid from the Darkspawn are no longer relevant. She would only need to have left Ostagar before it was completely overrun, which it sounds that she was able to do at a leisurely pace.

That begs the question of just why the darkspawn didn't finish them off and it also doesn't ring true with what you learn from the bandits or what Morrigan and Flemeth tell you (and both had literally birds eye view).

The Ostagoar army was SMASHED and only stragglers remained.  That is completely inconsistant with your hypothesis and thus Wynne's (tall) tale.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...
The Circle test against an abomination is a survival test, quite literally.  And to assume that the Templars, who are more than just watch dogs over the Magi,  have not instilled the lessons of four prior blights on the Circle seems somewhat narrow.  It also gives the impression that the Circle is a kindergarten and not the fully functioning institution, with it's own agenda, that it is. 

There is survival and then there is survival.  Sure the harrowing is a test of survival but it's survival in the Fade which is a completely different ball of wax than surviving in moutainous wilderness.

In fact we already know circle mages by and large are woefully unprepared for this given how no mage is permitted to leave the tower (even after you pass the harrowing) without the explicit permission of the First Enchanter and/or Knight Commander.  Just becasue you are trained to fight and survive in one stressful environment (the fade...and Wynne fails abysmally that that but I digress) says nothing about the mage's skill at wilderness survival...and given they live in a tower most of the time, it's more than fair to assume it's nil.

Also the Circle is not really it's own institution any more than student governments in a major university are "really" their own institutions.  Everyone knows that the Templars call the shots (and can kill all the mages if they feel like it).  The circle is permitted to run itself as long as it doesn't tick off the chantry and as long as the mages in charge remember who really is in charge (the chantry and their templars).  It emphatically is not a relationship of equals as the very frequent annulments prove.

No, as another poster said, the only way Wynne's story makes any sense at all is if a sizaeble military force survived Ostagar and kept a region darkspawn free, and that is ridiculous on the face of it since such a force would constitute a direct threat to the darkspawn in securing Ostagar.

-Polaris

[PatT2]

Wynne tells you before the battle (if you talk to her at Ostagar when you first arrive) that she isn't going to be on the front lines. NOne of the mages are.

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

The mages usually stay behind the melee fighters, so she probably had some time to flee.  She's wise and smart, and probably found some clever way to escape.  What I wonder about is why she's still alive in Awakenings if you killed her in Origins.  How did she survive that?

[mousestalker]

Ines gives you a hint. "The Fade shines out of her bum". You only thought you killed her. When you struck her down, her connection to her pet spirit brought her back more preachy and sanctimonious than she was before.

As for the alleged darkspawn hunting her down, blightpoodles are easily distracted. You don't see any at the final battle, for example.

Modifié par mousestalker, 19 décembre 2010 - 08:50 .

[IanPolaris]

PatT2 wrote...

Wynne tells you before the battle (if you talk to her at Ostagar when you first arrive) that she isn't going to be on the front lines. NOne of the mages are.

*sigh*  Again, that possily explains how she might have survived the initial battle (a point never disputed battlefields being chaotic places that they are).  I have no issue with Uldred surviving either.

The point is that Wynne's story falls to pieces.  She tells you that she not only survived, but was badly wounded and unable to travel, yet somehow evaded the darkspawn in howling wildnerness for months all while taking care of the wounded (while being wounded herself).

This is a ridiculous fiction on Wynne's part and she needs to be called on it.

-Polaris

[PatT2]

She might have played dead until the darkspawn lost interest and went after living (apparently) beings.



Traveling in those days isn't like hopping in a car or catching a plane these days. it required long walks. Most folks today, even in average health, couldn't walk 20 miles in a day. Being wounded and trying to walk that far each day (an average day's walk on a journey) would have been less likely in a time where horses were the only transportation and I haven't seen a single horse in this game.



Besides, why would I want to confront a fictional character. If the story falls apart, you need to call the author out on it, not the fictional characters.



We need to have imagination and suspense of disbelief and sometimes we have to overlook inconsistencies. I'm not perfect so I'm perfectly willing to lend some lattitude to other writers etc for not being perfect either.



We don't know how long darkspawn remained in the valley. They probably retreated after they won. That would leave a few straggler people to help each other until they could walk long distances.



In the books, people who are wounded in the war sometimes are taken to the cabins of wilder folk and tended to until they can travel. Thing is, you simply cannot think of travel as we do now.

[Erika T]

Pat, the darkspawn did not retreat. Remember, they went onwards to Lothering and eventually destroyed lothering. We know not all the Wilds was lost (after all, Fergus has been found later too), but if we follow the phyiscal and mental map, then I think its fair to say that the darkspawn progressed from ostagar to the wilds then to Lothering - which, incidentally, is exactly the same route that someone travelling towards the Circle Tower would take.



Now I dont know what happened there (and to be fair didnt really ask Wynne) but I too detect an inconsistency here, having read the last couple of pages here. If Wynne managed to escape, it should have happened BEFORE the darkspawn horde progressed, ie, she and the mages should have abandoned the king either at the same time Loghain had, or before.



If she hadnt fled then, the darkspawn horde would have progressed and would have been in her way. Or did she fight herself through the remainders oof the horde right after the battle?



There is one scenario in whih Wynnes story (badly wounded, stayed to help people, then went back to the tower) works: if she hides after ostagar, stays hidden for a while, and progresses towards the circle tower AFTER the darkspawn have taken lothering and moved beyond, clearing out the way from ostagar to the imperial highway. But this story only works, if the warden goes to the circle later than redcliffe. If the warden goes to the circle right after lothering (which is a perfectly logical choice for many, for the exptra attribbutes and quick levelling), then Wynne is already there. This is impossible, as Lothering hasnt even been taken, so unless Wynne left before the battle was lost, she couldnt have gone through and gotten to the Tower.



Not sure if this makes sense??