34 réponses à ce sujet

[Alupinu]

Looking over my side quest for Fanglewood and realized that I have a large number of fetch type quest. Thinking I need a little verity, I was wondering if anybody knew of a site that might have a list of possible side quest. Just something that has some out lines so that I can formulate a few new idea’s of my own.

Thank you

[kamalpoe]

http://en.wikipedia....Types_of_quests



There's only a few basic types of quests. It's all about the presentation.

[Arkalezth]

There was a thread in the old forums about this (I don't remember the title, it was started by Lugaid of the Red Stripes), but as Kamal said, mechanics-wise there are only a few types.

[rjshae]

I was thinking that you could do the opposite of a fetch, where somebody desperately wants to get rid of something. This could be, for example, a powerful cursed item that can't be uncursed and keeps coming back to its owner. She'll pay for the party to take it somewhere where the magical wards will keep it locked up. Unfortunately, the wards in question are already guarding something, so the party will have to risk releasing the current object/creature in order to satisfy the quest. This might require solving a difficult puzzle, &c.

[Arkalezth]

But the mechanic is still the same. Talk to a NPC, get quest, carry item from A to B. Maybe come back to A to get a reward.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

Here's that thread Arkalezth mentioned:

http://nwn2forums.bi...25579&forum=109



I know the NW Citadel also has a couple lists of quest ideas and basic plot structures.

Basically, though, the things the game engine handles best are killing, talking, and looting. You can spread the killing, talking, and looting over an interesting geography, tie it in into an interesting narrative, or use it to craft an interesting puzzle, but anything more will require a lot of scripting.

Accordingly, I wouldn't worry too much about having too many fetch/fed-ex quests, the fetching is really just a standardized form so that the player can easily understand what's going on. The trick is to take the standard form, and abuse it so thoroughly that something new and interesting results. Just try to think of ridiculous objects to fetch from ridiculous places/persons using ridiculous means, all while overcoming ridiculous obstacles, and you should get some good ideas.

[Alupinu]

Thanks everybody for your replies.



@ rjhae, I like your thinking, just not sure how to incorporate it into my scenery. But just your direction is already starting to give me fresh ideas.



@ Arkalezth, I totally agree but unfortunately my players aren’t always that understanding so I as a responsible modder I must try.



@ kamal, Yes, totally, just what I was thinking. Thanks !

[Alupinu]

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...

Here's that thread Arkalezth mentioned:
http://nwn2forums.bi...25579&forum=109

I know the NW Citadel also has a couple lists of quest ideas and basic plot structures.
Basically, though, the things the game engine handles best are killing, talking, and looting. You can spread the killing, talking, and looting over an interesting geography, tie it in into an interesting narrative, or use it to craft an interesting puzzle, but anything more will require a lot of scripting.
Accordingly, I wouldn't worry too much about having too many fetch/fed-ex quests, the fetching is really just a standardized form so that the player can easily understand what's going on. The trick is to take the standard form, and abuse it so thoroughly that something new and interesting results. Just try to think of ridiculous objects to fetch from ridiculous places/persons using ridiculous means, all while overcoming ridiculous obstacles, and you should get some good ideas.

@ Lugaid, Thanks for the link, yes I believe this is the thread I was thinking about when I first wrote the post.

“killing, talking, and looting” that is so true! LMAO, we can sugar coat it all we want with lawful good characters’ and Paladins. But in reality we are, just a bunch of bandits “killing, talking, and looting”. LOL

“Just try to think of ridiculous objects to fetch from ridiculous places/persons using ridiculous means, all while overcoming ridiculous obstacles, and you should get some good ideas.” Words to mod by! Thanks again Lugaid.

Modifié par Alupinu, 16 décembre 2010 - 11:46 .

[nicethugbert]

Good idea, rjshae.



The worst part of fetch is having to go back. It would be more interesting if the story took a surprise turn before you could go back. You could keep thwarting the PC's attempt to go back to the quest giver. Tension could mount to the point where the PC really has motive to go back but can't or has to make a trade off.



The quest giver could show up later, unexpectedly. He could be riding a pony, screaming, "I want my 2 sheckles! I want my 2 sheckles!" It might take some diplomacy to calm him down.

[kamalpoe]

Instead of you fetching, maybe the option to convince someone else to fetch for you. And (percent chance) Aww, it looks like Timmy was eaten by wolves while fetching some wood for you!

[dunniteowl]

I mentioned this before, several times in fact, but some of the most annoying and some of the most fun side quests are basically the same thing: Fed-Ex fetch quests. It's annoying when it's not well done or repetitive in the extreme. It's fun and sometimes funny when you take LotRS idea and do it in what they call movie scripting terms, "Hanging a Lantern" on it. This means you make it so absudly obvious that it's more like a comedic break than something serious (which can be good to break the tension in a really dark or seriously toned adventure -- in real life we have things happen while we're attempting gravity that are just so crazy we end up laughing until we cry.)

And, having other events unfold that, seemingly, have nothing to do with the side quest that just makes it harder and harder to complete.

It's like looking at a toaster, that smokes excessively when you use it and one morning you decide, "Damnit, I'm sick and tired of my toast and bagels smelling burnt! I'm gonna fix that toaster right now." And toasters are so simple, even you could fix one, right? So you go to open it, but, there are screws in there that don't use normal standard or phillips screws. Now you have to get a set of Allen wrenches (*hex wrenches, how apropos) and when you get back home, you find out that, you got the wrong wrenches, you have SAE and these are metric. Nope, not going back to the store, you try to make one of the other kind work. It's only a toaster, right?

When you get the cover off, there's all this insulation in the way to keep you from getting to the bottom of the toaster's crumb area, because you already took that little cover off and cleaned it out and that didn't fix it.

Something like that. You start off with something simple and, due to complications, lack of materials, etc, you end up doing a lot more than you thought you were going to have to in order to complete this simple fetch quest.

And, once in a while, you make it easy -- really, really easy -- and when the person that gives you the item the other person wanted (or gets the item the other person had you deliver) they say, "Gosh, I don't know what all the fuss is about. I don't even know why So and So, didn't just bring it themselves? I'm just down the street."

And Chaos and others are also right. It's not about the uniquity of the idea, it's the execution and timing of the events that make it go boom. How many different stories based on Romeo and Juliet are there out there? Thousands! How many stories take a young person and it turns out that they have this saga like series of experiences with the culmination that they are ascending the throne that, up to some point in the story, they didn't realize was theirs already by birth? Thousands!

Here are some thematic elements that have helped many a series along:

Mistaken identity

Overheard only part of a conversation and misconstrued what was going on

Tricked into doing something unpleasant

Punked

Using you as a patsy

Taking a dare



And those can be combined and mixed with serious or comedic overtones and after that, it's all about how the story is told and it's execution.



So don't worry about having the fetch quests, they're something of an unavoidable staple. The trick is to make them work for you in the context of your stories. And just don't beat your players over the head with a one trick pony series of fetch quests.



best regards,

dunniteowl

[kamalpoe]

Multiple options for a quest can expand things. For example, in one of my quests the questgiver would like the player to get an antidote from a merchant, a fetch quest. The player can a) buy it from the merchant pickpocket it from the merchant c) kill the merchant and take it.



For fetch quests there's a couple of questions to ask. I'll give an example and then cover them:

One fetch quest I saw recently was to dig up some flowers for an npc. They gave me a shovel, and I got the custom digging animation when I did it. I dug up enough and returned them for my reward.



Question: "Why don't you do it?". The NPC was standing about 10 meters away from the flowers, facing them (the flowers were not hidden in any way), there was no danger (was on a farm in a town) and the npc was apparently able bodied.



Question: "Why should I do it?" My pc was 5th level. Digging flowers was beneath me. They weren't the secret ingredient to forging the Sword of Goodness +2 I would need to defeat the dragon. The 50 gold or so I would earn would probably be negligible to the amount a 5th level pc would have. And the npc was able bodied, I wasn't helping some old widow.



If a quest just asks to be done for "completeness", it's kind of hollow.

[Alupinu]

First need to thank everybody for their input, I’m reading a lot of good stuff here today.
 Looked over my quest in Fanglewood and I’m not as bad as shape as I thought. I have a couple of kill the monster quest, test of morality quest, check on somebody quest, rescue quest and one exploring quest. Bring my total of about 10 side quest so far.
My exploring quests are really not quest at all but secret areas. (Inspired by the original “Duke Nukem 3D”) that the player will get xp for discovering but there is no journal entries.
 
@NTB, yes I agree the yo-yo thing can get old. So I do have a few quests that are completed at the climax of the quest and the player need not return to his quest giver.
“He could be riding a pony, screaming…” does NWN2 have a horse riding animation? …love to see it.
 
@CW, execution is key I agree and that’s half my problem. I have used up all the obvious executions, lol I think.
 Yes the multiple choice thing I have been trying to implement in Fanglewood being that is one of the gripes that brought MinD score down. I do have a couple of ‘PC holds court’ Pc listens to the npc story and then is forced to decide if the npc should live or die! Alignment shifts will apply of course.
 
@kamal, I like your idea and I have pondered that same thought in the past. The tough part is how to come up with an idea that makes the player send somebody else to do his bidding. In short why would the player send somebody else to do something he can do himself?
The question thing works well. I use it myself a lot, sometimes too well where I will talk myself out of a quest because of too many questions. LOL
 
@Dno, well to me that is the different between Running a quest and running an errand. If my lady tells me to go to the store and pick up some milk and I do without incident then that’s an errand but if I get a flat tire along the way now it’s a quest.
I like your list of ideas, particularly the one about a dare. I’m already thinking of the ground work for a dare as I write this.
 
@ Another factor that I like to point out is environment. A quest should (though it doesn’t always have too.)Make sense in its environment. Fanglewood is a huge deep forist so I really try to get the quest to make sense in that direction. Though I should point out that it is a fantasy world and a good fantasy world anything should be possible.
 alupinu

Modifié par Alupinu, 18 décembre 2010 - 05:50 .

[kamalpoe]

Why send someone else to do a fetch quest? "Hey buddy, I'll give you 25 gold if you go get some wood for me." when you're being paid 50 gold to do so. Or you'll do something for them in return. Sure you can ask why the pc isn't doing it himself, but fetch quests are straightforward normally and you want ways to expand on quests.



Besides, I think it would be unusual among mods if you could do something like that as an alternate solution to a fetch quest. Also maybe you get some extra xp for doing it. Get the same XP for completing the fetch quest as if you'd done it yourself, but get bonus xp for getting someone else to do it for you, perhaps you had to convince them via diplomacy skill to do so.

[Alupinu]

kamalpoe wrote...

Why send someone else to do a fetch quest? "Hey buddy, I'll give you 25 gold if you go get some wood for me." when you're being paid 50 gold to do so. Or you'll do something for them in return. Sure you can ask why the pc isn't doing it himself, but fetch quests are straightforward normally and you want ways to expand on quests.

Besides, I think it would be unusual among mods if you could do something like that as an alternate solution to a fetch quest. Also maybe you get some extra xp for doing it. Get the same XP for completing the fetch quest as if you'd done it yourself, but get bonus xp for getting someone else to do it for you, perhaps you had to convince them via diplomacy skill to do so.

Sure executing the quest in that manner would be interesting but setting up a condition where the player would rather have somebody else complete the quest is still unclear. Case and point: I mow my own lawn because it’s cheaper than having somebody else do it.  Maybe a case where race or class is a factor and the pc has no choice. Or a child like npc that tugs on the heart strings of the player and makes him feel like a jack-ass if the pc refuses.


alupinu

Modifié par Alupinu, 18 décembre 2010 - 05:48 .

[dunniteowl]

Well in the sense of a fetch quest, it's the idea of whether or not you can make the person asking to have something done act in a "module responsible" manner is a linch pin to the quest itself. Esentially it's kamalpoe's first question: Why don't you do it?

And that's a really good point. How many old crones, wizened old codgers, little kids, waifs, orphans and pretty damsels in distress can you have in an area with quests to hand out? So if someone's able bodied and right there, it sort of falls apart, no matter the quest.

So you can do things like:
"I'd do it myself, except I have to keep an eye on my three little siblings, since ma's gone. They're a real handful, believe me. Unless of course, you'd rather stay here and keep an eye on the kids while I do it?" (so you now create not only believability, you provide multiple quest branches to the same event. On one hand, you go get the item/thing and let the oldest brother/sister stay home and keep an eye on the siblings -- or, you let them go on the fetch quest and you have to try to ride herd on three unmanageble and unruly kids and still have them relatively unharmed when the eldest gets back to pay and thank you for your 'quality time' with the kids. )

"I know I look strong and all, but ever since I got wounded back in the War, I just can't lift anything heavier than a tankard. I'd really appreciate it if you could use that prybar and lift that stone for me."

In your case, you have to find reasons for forest related quests that make sense for your characters.


The Next question kamalpoe asks, "Why should I do it?" is a good one, too.  Of course, that's harder to quantify, because each player is going to be different and each person is going to treat their experience in-game and even their point of view on their characters, differently.  That said, there has to be some commonality of reference for why someone would bother to take on such requests in the first place.  And, honestly, none of it should be rationalized as, "Well, I need the experience, so, okay, I'll do it."  And, if it's not plot related, it really shouldn't have an overall impact on the outcome of the game by taking or refusing them.

So, "Why should I do it?" probably would be best taken in the direction of: is there sufficient pathos or emotional motivation to take on the quest?  The example of the digging up flowers is a good example of a bad example of a quest. Now, unless that's something like a learning quest for a child level entry into playing an adventure game, things like that are to be avoided.

In the meantime, it can be hard to come up with ideas that make a quest not seem contrived. I like to think of all my quests as more of a sidequest sort of issue.  Nothing is necessary and you don't have to do it, but -- as with things that get imposed upon us by others in Real Life, each one is a personal story in someone else's life.  And sometimes we can be quite put out by such requests.  As long as you can write a dialog that allows for polite -- and possibly not so polite -- refusal of such quests, all is right with your fantasy world. 

The same should hold true for accepting such requests.  Some folks will do it for the reward; and others will do it out of having a hard time saying, "No."  Still others might do it, because it sounds interesting.  So having polite -- and possibly not so polite -- acceptance dialog would also further the ease of quest entry.  Again, because it provides a set of 'believeable' responses under the circumstances.


My personal take on the whole quest thing is that I tend to make them up as stories in and of themselves.  They have no real bearing on the central plot (other than as a sort of time sink that might be avoided) and, as such, hopefully provide a sort of 'slice if life' outside completing your original task.  In my case, that would be the main quest.

I do fetch quests, travel quests, information (another form of fetching, actually,) sometimes bodyguard/escort quests, find the missing person quests, and actually do very little in the way of making a Kill Something quest.  This is simply out of the fact that, along the way of many a quest, something needs a little killing here and there anyway.  The quests are not about adding to that in a purposeful manner -- the combat is a side result of accepting the quests in the first place.

Now, of course a main quest or primary challenge might be to kill the goblin king, or to rid the lands of the Undead Menace.  These would involve a substantial amount of implied combat in the quest itself.  Then again, those aren't side quests.  Those are central, plot-related things, and I like to keep those in perspective -- and separate -- from my side quests as much as possible.

I like to think of side quests as a sort of 'break' from the central theme, as well as that 'slice of life' that happens.  No matter what kingdom needs saving, what magical item has to be found and destroyed, or who has been kidnapped and is vital to the success of the Good v Evil central theme of such a plot, these events would unfold.  

Meanwhile, kids still get lost in the woods, lovers quarrel, family fortunes get ruined, and the dead sometimes just will not rest until business if complete.  They don't care about the overarching plot -- hell, they may not even know about it --- and, as such, have their own personal dramas playing out that are more important to them than who wins that war way off yonder.


I don't know if these ruminations will provide you with any ideas -- or even prove helpful in any way -- it's just that, from the perspective of this haphazard module designer, side quests are just another story.  Granted, albeit much smaller and less important to the outcome of the central theme, but no less important to the characters as they would be to your next door neighbor, or your cousin on the other side of town, etc, if they attempted to impose upon you to be included in their own personal story of the moment.

dunniteowl

Modifié par dunniteowl, 20 décembre 2010 - 04:29 .

[diophant]

When reading all this ideas, I came up with two more ideas to make FedEx quests a little bit different:



- Give the PC a time limit. The healer needs an antidote for his dying mother, but he is missing a rare ingredient. If you cannot fetch the ingredient until the next morning, the mother dies. This is especially challenging if resting takes time, and you have to do the quest with your currently available spells and feats.



- I like quests where something unexpected happens. Start as an ordinary FedEx quest, someone wants the old amulet of his brother, but they do not speak with each other. When you finally get the amulet (you have to pickpocket it from his neck), you realize that it was all an evil plot, because the amulet is cursed, and can only be removed from your neck by violence or theft (thanks rjshae for the idea with the cursed item). Now you have to hang around in the seediest areas of the cities, hoping that some pickpocket steals the amulet (but take care, some robbers might kill you when trying to get the amulet).

[rjshae]

Here's a slight side trek comment: a number of fantasy RPGs include brothels and prostitutes. But in most instances this is just window dressing (with the exception of the hilarious brothel in Fable.) Something that might be interesting is to have the brothel activity lead to a side quest. For example, the character is resting up with the prostitute afterward and she starts to babble. But some of what she says pricks up your ears, giving you new insight into your main quest, or at least giving you a new name to contact in that regard. The other side of the coin, of course, would be acquiring some STD in the process that you need to perform a side trek to cure. (The cleric recognizes the source and sees fit to assign you a quest to redeem yourself.)

[dunniteowl]

Evil is as evil does rjshae. And you are definitely a DM I wouldn't mind overseeing any adventure I participated in. Those are great, if somewhat wickedly twisted, ideas!

dno

[Alupinu]

Sorry for the late reply everybody, been dealing with this holiday thing. So umm…
 
@Dno, thanks for your very detailed comment. You put a lot of things into a whole new prospective. Basically what I got from that was not to stress the small stuff, lol.
Sounds like we approach with similar insight, most of my side quest are really mini modules in themselves.  Though I don’t always provide a full background but sometimes that can add to the mystery.
I am putting a lot of effort into giving players a lot of choices with my side quest. I like the part about always making sure the player has a choice in the quest, “because it provides a set of 'believable' responses under the circumstances.. “.That was one of my big mistakes with Mind is that I forced quest on my players and not giving them a choice.
 
@diophant, like the idea of a timed quest but I don’t have the scripting skills to come up with the code for a timer. But if I come across the code I would like to attempt something like that.
Your second quest sounds great and I will try and remember it for future mods. Unfortunately it doesn’t totally agree with my setting. How much pick-pocketing goes on in a deep forest?
 
@rjshae, funny because there is a working prostitute in MinD but she doesn’t give any clues to side quest or anything, she just there for fun and not much else. I do like your idea of a prostitute giving clues to future quest of furthering the main quest. Let me work on that, maybe I can take it someplace.
 Thanks again everybody for your time and comments
alupinu

[PJ156]

I've come very late to this one but for me the side quest is not so much on the side. I agree that fetch quests are tedious but needed and that they can be spiced up. Where I don't like these so much are when they are random such as - I am here to slay a dragon but the man in the pub has asked me to fetch him some toilet paper - hey ten gold is ten gold. This is extreme but quests like this are clearly just hung in there to add some time and exp into the mod. I find them a distraction.

@alupinu - I did not think lack of choice was an issue in MinD. I am not sure which player would turn down a side quest. Having choice on how to complete a quest is always good though

I like side quests which develop the plot or the theme of the mod, so they feel in place. All of my mods to date concern the happenings just after the war with the King of Shadows. Thus the soldiers tales which you all so kindly helped me with in another thread deals with a person fresh back from that battle, he is now a drunken bum living in the tenements in Thunder bay and needs help. It is a side quest but it builds on the overall theme of the module.

Also in the tenements are a number of working girls, they are certaily not there for comedy. The man that runs them is one of the nastiest villains I have put into my mod (and I have some nasty ones). I am unsure how to handle these as I am unsure about ratings. Marrians tale is my other principle side quest, she is a prostitute but I am unsure how to handle her (no pun intended). Part of me says the average player out there is 30+ and male therefore I can write what I like and if it is not liked then so be it. I am also wary of younger players, the rating we give does not restrict it only informs.

Hope that adds something, sorry if I am repeating.

PJ

[The Fred]

One thing that gets me is that, while a lot of side-quests might not *need* to be completed, there's normally no benefit to not doing them, apart from nto getting bored if they're boring quests. Having to fight someone is not a disadvantage; I earn XP etc. Likewise, an alternative route to completion where I can pay off someone to avoid a confrontation is almost always a bad choice because you lose gold, and don't gain combat XP. The only exception is when someone wants me to murder someone etc. and I tell them I won't do it because I'm a nice person (and don't want evil points). It might be nice if there were more flip-sides to quests (for example, the BG quest where you can side with the hunters or druids; each option opens up another quest later on).

Alupinu wrote...
@diophant, like the idea of a timed quest but I don’t have the scripting skills to come up with the code for a timer. But if I come across the code I would like to attempt something like that.

It's not suitable for a long-term timed quest (e.g. get the cure before I die 12 days later), but you could try my countdown timer UI.

Modifié par The Fred, 23 décembre 2010 - 11:35 .

[dunniteowl]

And as a side note, one of my Peeves/Rants with stock NWN2 is that time has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. How do you make a series of events that *do* affect the main quest's issues if all those side quests make no noticeable impact on your time to complete the main quest?

In my particular case, I can write around it, but as far as my PnP module designs go, the more time you spend being distracted, the more difficult your main quest is likely to be. In NWN2, that really isn't the case and, as such, the side quests I make at this point are more of a 'break' from the tension of the main quest. Even so, I don't sweat too many of the small details, like tying up all the loose ends. In RL (*which is where I get a lot of my twisted ideas) a lot of things happen and occur around you and you never get the opportunity to find out what happened next. Your part is done in the drama and others (or time) require you to move along and get along with your life.

That said, I do like to drive the sidequests to some form of noteable closure. Clearly the most traditional closure is to have an NPC (either the quest giver or the quest recipient) inform the PC(party) that they are glad that's all over with and thanks for helping out. However, an untimely demise, a betrayal, or simply running off without paying can also bring a form of closure, perhaps less satisfying as a story, but a bit more believeable under the appropriate circumstances.

The Fred, does your countdown timer only work for, say, a minute or two, or can it be set to longer actual times?

dunniteowl

[Alupinu]

*What about balance of play?* This is another subject with side quest that is concerning me. Just want to see if anybody had an opinion about this too.

This is my situation, I have a bunch of side quest and a main quest. My main quest starts off as a basic first level adventure but as it advances it quickly gets harder. As a matter of fact it gets so hard so fast that unless the party does some of the side quest for extra XP they will find themselves quickly out matched. But of course if the party does all the side quest then the main quest is do-able even a little easy. So what can I do to insure a more balanced play?

So far the only things that I can come up with for more balanced is ‘encounter triggers’ and a little common sense. (Goblins don’t belong in Dragon lairs and Dragons don’t belong in Goblin dens.)



I do have some issues with encounter triggers but that is better saved for another post at another time.



So in short the question is now how to get a better sense of balance between my main quest and my side quest?



Also did I mention that I’m trying to make it possible to play my campaign solo if you so choose.



alupinu