106 réponses à ce sujet

[The Unfallen]

I think its reasonable to believe that Shepard in ME 2 / 3 is an Android, with the only organic body parts being tissue (this includes skin and blood), and his brain and central nervous system, it is safe to assume everything else is artificial/synthetic.

[Praetor Knight]

Encarmine wrote...

haha, i dont care how much theory craft goes into this, sheperd fell into open space, the suit had tears, sheperd then got exposed to space vacuum, which would of left sheperd frozen beyond repair, at a cell level, totally ruined. Sheperd then began to burn up as he/she enterd the atmosphere at several thousand kilometers per hour. Now, in the real world, NOTHING would of been left at all if such an event happend, but for the sake of story/sci fi, lets then entertain the fact that Sheperd then hit the ground at speeds probly in excess of 600kph.

I would conclude, that sheperd was KIA.

 Well in a vacuum, the loss of heat would be very slow without something to transfer the heat to, so it would take a longer time than shown in the destruction of the Normandy for Shep to freeze in space. He more likely froze on the Planet.

Radiation would have caused more damage that vaccum.

Dunno how fast Shep fell though.

From NASA: http://imagine.gsfc....ers/970603.html  

How long can a human live unprotected in space?

If you don't try to hold your breath, exposure to space for half a minute or so is unlikely to produce permanent injury. Holding your breath is likely to damage your lungs, something scuba divers have to watch out for when ascending, and you'll have eardrum trouble if your Eustachian tubes are badly plugged up, but theory predicts -- and animal experiments confirm -- that otherwise, exposure to vacuum causes no immediate injury. You do not explode. Your blood does not boil. You do not freeze. You do not instantly lose consciousness.

Various minor problems (sunburn, possibly "the bends", certainly some [mild, reversible, painless] swelling of skin and underlying tissue) start after ten seconds or so. At some point you lose consciousness from lack of oxygen. Injuries accumulate. After perhaps one or two minutes, you're dying. The limits are not really known.
You do not explode and your blood does not boil because of the containing effect of your skin and circulatory system. You do not instantly freeze because, although the space environment is typically very cold, heat does not transfer away from a body quickly. Loss of consciousness occurs only after the body has depleted the supply of oxygen in the blood. If your skin is exposed to direct sunlight without any protection from its intense ultraviolet radiation, you can get a very bad sunburn.

At NASA's Manned Spacecraft Center (now renamed Johnson Space Center) we had a test subject accidentally exposed to a near vacuum (less than 1 psi) in an incident involving a leaking space suit in a vacuum chamber back in '65. He remained conscious for about 14 seconds, which is about the time it takes for O2 deprived blood to go from the lungs to the brain. The suit probably did not reach a hard vacuum, and we began repressurizing the chamber within 15 seconds. The subject regained consciousness at around 15,000 feet equivalent altitude. The subject later reported that he could feel and hear the air leaking out, and his last conscious memory was of the water on his tongue beginning to boil.

Aviation Week and Space Technology (02/13/95) printed a letter by Leonard Gordon which reported another vacuum-packed anecdote:

"The experiment of exposing an unpressurized hand to near vacuum for a significant time while the pilot went about his business occurred in real life on Aug. 16, 1960. Joe Kittinger, during his ascent to 102,800 ft (19.5 miles) in an open gondola, lost pressurization of his right hand. He decided to continue the mission, and the hand became painful and useless as you would expect. However, once back to lower altitudes following his record-breaking parachute jump, the hand returned to normal."  

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 17 décembre 2010 - 06:28 .

[Sable Phoenix]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

It's possible, but how did Shep fool the Citadel sensors? Even if his records were falsified by TIM, any cybernetic part would get flagged by C-Sec, especially against "Geth" Infiltration.

Shepard's loaded with cybernetics in ME2.  None of them tripped any sensors going through decon on the Citadel.  It's only checking her actual DNA anyway, which is the same if they built the body from her own cell cultures.

[282xvl]

Nobody knows EXACTLY how the brain works so I am willing to accept for the sake of argument that all brain data is permanently stored in some physical form, like ROM on an OSD. If this is so, even frozen etc, I can accept space majick that could read/recover this data and compile it in a new clone/cyber brain and boot it up exactly as in the state the original was in when it shut down.



If however you proscribe to the theory that much of the brain's content is NOT permanently stored in physical form (that it is largely comprised of standing electro/chemical "signals" or data like a RAM chip) then recovering Shep's personality would seem impossible.



Condition of the body doesn't really matter. In her original body, in a Geth platform, in a cerberus cyborg, in a brain in a jar... what matters is whether Shep is Shep - are all data and processing variables in the thinking machine the same as the original?



If they can be reasonably said to be the I can accept this plot device without breaking into a fit of apoplexy.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Not to mention suffocation and exposure to vacuum that explodes your eyes, boils your blood, explodes your organs so lets say Shep miraculously free falls rag doll style into the ground forget the heat from the entering into the atmosphere… Lets be really generous and say this planet just doesn’t have a thick atmosphere to plow through and so the fire part only last 60 seconds that’s 60seconds of nuke style heat and then the 160mph plow into the ground and you know when things hit the ground at those speeds craters are left but lets say the ground is impervious to blemishing so no crater and shep lives all the way down well with boiled blood, no eyes, no organs I say he's still dead in 60seconds or less....sorry no way to real world this it was a bad bad plot device.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Shepard was dead as far as our current level of science is concerned. But revivalable in their time, technology advancement ftw.



Shields and armor probably survived the entry process and perhaps even some of the landing, with the rest shattering his body to pieces. But perhaps the cold flash froze him or atleast made him too numb to feel the pain as he is practically preserved in ice in his shattered state (a sort of suspended animation).

[Praetor Knight]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

It's possible, but how did Shep fool the Citadel sensors? Even if his records were falsified by TIM, any cybernetic part would get flagged by C-Sec, especially against "Geth" Infiltration.

Shepard's loaded with cybernetics in ME2.  None of them tripped any sensors going through decon on the Citadel.  It's only checking her actual DNA anyway, which is the same if they built the body from her own cell cultures.

Well you mentioned placing what makes Shep, Shep, in a Blue Box, that's what I meant, when I said that it's possible.

I guess Bailey is just another too proud C-Sec agent.

[Praetor Knight]

282xvl wrote...

Nobody knows EXACTLY how the brain works so I am willing to accept for the sake of argument that all brain data is permanently stored in some physical form, like ROM on an OSD. If this is so, even frozen etc, I can accept space majick that could read/recover this data and compile it in a new clone/cyber brain and boot it up exactly as in the state the original was in when it shut down.

If however you proscribe to the theory that much of the brain's content is NOT permanently stored in physical form (that it is largely comprised of standing electro/chemical "signals" or data like a RAM chip) then recovering Shep's personality would seem impossible.

This partially leads towards the Nature v. Nurture debate as to how we are as we are. The brain can be preserved considering the possible condition on the surface of Alchera and the Alliance gene mods.

Also, relating to the Brain, there are some interesting ideas and theories for sure.

From Scientific American: (the link has the longer article).

The human brain consists of about one billion neurons. Each neuron forms about 1,000 connections to other neurons, amounting to more than a trillion connections. If each neuron could only help store a single memory, running out of space would be a problem. You might have only a few gigabytes of storage space, similar to the space in an iPod or a USB flash drive. Yet neurons combine so that each one helps with many memories at a time, exponentially increasing the brain’s memory storage capacity to something closer to around 2.5 petabytes (or a million gigabytes). For comparison, if your brain worked like a digital video recorder in a television, 2.5 petabytes would be enough to hold three million hours of TV shows. You would have to leave the TV running continuously for more than 300 years to use up all that storage.

[Praetor Knight]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

On another related, interesting note: The force of Earth's gravity on a human being with a mass of 70 kg (154 lbs) is approximately 686 Newtons, more if you weigh more like me. So if Shepard is freefalling on a planet with a smaller mass the force is even less.

Terminal velocity also depends upon the thickness of the atmosphere.  Alchera's is thinner than Earth's.  Terminal velocity could be higher because of that.  We don't know, but I do know that Shepard's body didn't hit Alchera any more gently than it would've hit Earth.

Well, here's a link to an article from Popular Mechanics that describes falling from a plane starting at 35,000 feet.

And a web page  giving some figures on terminal velocity and free fall.

So from what I read there, it could be possible to impact the planet in one piece as Shep most likely did (being alive after that, if not in a coma or shock, is another question).

But either way, Shep's bones certainly sustained damage.

[cutthecameras]

I kinda like the thought of Shepard dying and being revived as a badass cyborg. That death scene was agonizing, thinking of it not leading to an actual death is...unsatisfying.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

This is how my Shepard (Vangaurd) "died":

-Choking he stopped struggling when he realized he was entering the planet's atmosphere and realized he had to defend himself to survive.

-He immediately puts on a biotic barrier that absorbs the impact of the heat. While burning, he uses his adrenaline boost to restore his biotic powers.

-Now below orbit, he reinforces his barrier... but is beginning to lose consciousness.

-the barrier is nearly depleted as he reaches for his medigel administration unit

-suddenly the impact destroys his barrier and shatters his bones, in shock he injects himself with medigel which begins healing some of the tissue

-the cold sets in and Shepard is frozen, ready to be shipped via Fedex:D

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:59 .

[Lee337]

The game is set in the future where they have cutting edge technology that we can't understand. And its a fictous game. So if Shepard was brought back to life with his memories in tact then thats what happened!

[Praetor Knight]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

*snip*
-the cold sets in and Shepard is frozen, ready to be shipped via Fedex:D

I'd say USPS, he was further damaged in transit

[darth_lopez]

Habelo wrote...

MrDizaztar wrote...

Habelo wrote...

So i came with this brilliant idea. Shepard really never deid.
Which made some puzzlebits settle as i saw the idea flash infront of my eyes.

*Liara being so guilted with leaving you to cerberus.
*The pure scientific viewpoint. (if you can revive people like that then you have the technology to travel back in time, which, they dont).

So this is my idea on what really happened: shepard never really deid, he was just really badly damaged (this makes more sense for those of you who have read that comic where liara and the shadowbroker is involved) and cerberus only told him that he had been dead becuse of the fact that if they said to him that they had kidnapped his body and fixed him isntead of leaving the task up to the alliance shepard would feel no loyalty- maybe even illoyalty to their act.

But i dunno if this idea is flawless. Do anyone have some way to argue against this?

Dude he was only "mostly dead."  Last time I checked you can revive people who are only mostly dead.

How are you "mostly dead"? Either your brain works or it doesnt mate

i will agree with you just because of this. This is the most epic statement ever made XD. Games are meeant to be interactive why does every NPC have to spew truth from it's mouth when we know that TIM has outright lied to us?

[Reiella]

Pwner1323 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Do we have to just deal with it?

Yes.
NO

Fixed

So, while I guess we could continually push for a massive retcon, but aside from that, I don't really think there is much else we can do besides deal with it.

Oh well, guess you can just have your own personal retcon or denial.

[FlintlockJazz]

TelexFerra wrote...

My name is John Shepard. You destroyed my ship. Prepare to die

Love it!

Shepard:  Offer me money.  Power too, promise me that!
Harbinger:  All that I have and more please!
Shepard:  Offer me everything I ask for!
Harbinger: Anything you want!
Shepard:  *stabbing up Harbinger* I want my father back you son of a ****!

*Hannah Shepard walks in*

Hannah:  John, no, Harbinger is your father!!!
Shepard:  What?  Noooooooooo!  That's not true thats impossible!
Harbinger:  Search your feelings you know it to be true!
Hannah:  I was very very drunk one night...

Sorry went off on a tangent then...

[Zombie Chow]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

A version of Shepard is alive. There's nothing to reassure me that it's actually my Shepard and not a zombie-cyborg.

BioWare went with "expensive magic" so I'm forced to go by what's presented and that means my Shepard was and is dead. The PC inME2 is just a copy, a science experiment to which I have no attachment.
And I'd argue against her ebing resurrected "exactly as she was".  That's not backed up at all in the game, especially when Shepard can be hacked by an AI and have glowing red eyes.  That implies quite a few cybernetics, the former being cybernetics that directly affect brain function and body movement.

I don't know what Shepard is now, but she certainly isn't the character I played in ME1.

Wow!  Now, I know this "Shepard in ME2 was a clone" idea is unpopular, but I gotta admit it's no less extreme than saying "Cerberus brought Shepard back from the dead".  It's a bit of an unreliable narrator thing.

IMHO, the fundamental premise is this:

- Cerberus told Shepard he died and was brought back to life
- but Cerberus lies to everyone, including its own people

Just organising my thoughts, let's see the people who are telling Shepard (and us, the players) that he was resurrected rather than cloned.

Jacob:

- seems to genuinely believe Shepard in ME2 is not a clone and tells him so
- all he saw of Shepard was meat and tubes when he was retrieved
- he is not a doctor or scientist, just security, so he probably doesn't know the details
- he probably got his information about Shepard's resurrection from Miranda
- Miranda has been shown to deceive him, as revealed in his loyalty mission

Miranda:

- she was in charge of Project Lazarus and knows all the details
- but she has deceived Jacob (above), her best friend Niket, and even her sister Oriana
- she sees Shepard not just as a person, but as "a bloody icon" that she has to recreate, one way or another
- even if he was a clone, to instill in him that confidence that made him an icon, she'd tell him he is the original

The Illusive Man:

- agrees with Miranda that Shepard must be saved for his value as an icon
- has lied to Shepard before during the Disabled Collector Vessel mission

Those are the 3 main people who claim Shepard in ME2 is the original, but they're all pretty unreliable for different reasons.  What about the other characters that seem to treat Shepard in ME2 as the original and not a clone?

Dr. Chakwas:

- being Shepard's medical officer, would probably known his physical condition the best
- seems to genuinely believe Shepard's the original
- but probably has no medical knowledge on what a person is like after resurrected, this is a precedent
- is probably basing at least some of her medical records on Shepard on Cerberus, who could lie to her

Aria and her batarian henchman that scans Shepard "to see if it's really (him)":

- as soon as Shepard appears before Aria, the batarian scans him
- he simply states (to my recollection), "he's clean", but he could merely be checking for the Collector plague
- it's Aria that claims the scan was to make sure that it was really Shepard
- but Aria has also be known to be deceptive, having betrayed Patriarch, her long-time ally

C-Sec officer at the Citadel's arrival and Captain Bailey:

- identify Shepard through the scanners
- claim that their scanners are reliable
- but Thane points out C-Sec's security has flaws, so their scans might not be infallible either

Thus, even these sources have been described as flawed.  Everyone else in the game seems to just take Shepard on his word that he was resurrected, or possibly been fed false information by Cerberus (who seems to have deliberately leaked info about Shepard).

My conclusion - I don't think this Shepard clone idea is a crazy conspiracy theory.  My reasons are ultimately based on the fact that it involves a Cerberus, which is a group of conspirators, and other people who may not be reliable sources of information.

As I'm preparing for another ME2 playthrough, I'm going to play with this idea in mind.  It'll be like a completely new story.

[Vaenier]

Zombie Chow wrote...

My conclusion - I don't think this Shepard clone idea is a crazy conspiracy theory.  My reasons are ultimately based on the fact that it involves a Cerberus, which is a group of conspirators, and other people who may not be reliable sources of information.

As I'm preparing for another ME2 playthrough, I'm going to play with this idea in mind.  It'll be like a completely new story.

What about the opening cutscene part where it shows them fixing her broken body?

[Praetor Knight]

Vaenier wrote...

Zombie Chow wrote...

My conclusion - I don't think this Shepard clone idea is a crazy conspiracy theory.  My reasons are ultimately based on the fact that it involves a Cerberus, which is a group of conspirators, and other people who may not be reliable sources of information.

As I'm preparing for another ME2 playthrough, I'm going to play with this idea in mind.  It'll be like a completely new story.

What about the opening cutscene part where it shows them fixing her broken body?

Yeah, that is a rather important piece of evidence I gather.

The best we can do is fit the available evidence to potential theories that can best explain how Shep can be walking "aboot" in ME2 and then ME3.

[CroGamer002]

Agreed, Shepard never >>>>deid<<<<

[ADLegend21]

oh yeah Shepard never died that's why the first thing we see after she falls into alchera's atmosphere is her heart looking black and decayed and fluids being injected into her viens to get blood pumping and getting her heart restarted, her spine being put back together and other medical things being done to get her body back to the way it was pre-collector attack. Wait a minute that means she was dead since her heart stopped and her brain ceased to funtcion.



/thread.

[Hathur]

Well.. if Shep didn't die the first time... 2nd time's a charm? www.youtube.com/watch (first death hurt.. 2nd death nearly made me cry).

[jayred vas normandy]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

This is how my Shepard (Vangaurd) "died":

-Choking he stopped struggling when he realized he was entering the planet's atmosphere and realized he had to defend himself to survive.

-He immediately puts on a biotic barrier that absorbs the impact of the heat. While burning, he uses his adrenaline boost to restore his biotic powers.

-Now below orbit, he reinforces his barrier... but is beginning to lose consciousness.

-the barrier is nearly depleted as he reaches for his medigel administration unit

-suddenly the impact destroys his barrier and shatters his bones, in shock he injects himself with medigel which begins healing some of the tissue

-the cold sets in and Shepard is frozen, ready to be shipped via Fedex:D

.............................................................................................................................................................................................................


awsome i love this idea

[jayred vas normandy]

shep died.. get over it. we can't travel faster than light or use biotics, but they can. so Y cant they bring someone back to life. its fantasy do ruin it by over analizing everything about it.

[Zombie Chow]

Vaenier wrote...

What about the opening cutscene part where it shows them fixing her broken body?

Yeah, for everyone's convenience, here's a link:

The first part looks a dissection to me.  Like they're cutting up Shepard to get cell samples for cloning.  They insert some probes in his body, then diluting the blood with a blue liquid, probably to get a DNA sample.

The second part of the video looks like a living clone.  They're still tweaking it to be as close to the orignal Shepard as possible (the original was very physically fit) with cybernetic implants.

The third part shows the clone's brain, zooming in on a synapse.  It looks like this clone may be undergoing some brainwashing or mental conditioning, like Okeer's clones, to think he's the real Shepard.

The last part is the loading screen, showing the clone's blood pressure, pulse, and some other readings.  It also shows a DNA strand.  Why would you want to look at the DNA?  Only if it's a clone and you're worried if it's intact.