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[Thestral]

yukidama wrote...

Thestral wrote...

Gilsa wrote...
LOL. I got a kick out of Fenris shutting Zevran down when he tried to offer a personal reward. I didn't have Isabela in the group so no idea if her dialogue would override anything. Too tedious of a boss fight to rotate though all the companion reactions.

Does anyone have a video of this? :] Btw, can Hawke sleep with Zevran?

Ooh and if I remember right, someone said if you betray Fenris ( ;o;) you get a letter from his master about how he's more docile or something? Does anyone have a copy of what it says? :]

Hey, thank you kindly, yukidama. ^^

I
I -

I don't -

I bawwwwwww omg wagghhhh  ; o ; That's so horrible and heart-breaking.

[TheComfyCat]

Bluumberry wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

Only the depraved treat Fenris like that. Even if you didn't care for his views, that is a terrible thing.

Makes me wonder how anyone can romance Anders when you hear his reaction to betraying Fenris...

...if Anders were about to be turned into the Templars, Fenris would be elated. He'd probably burst into that dance he told Varric he was choreographing. It hardly seems fair to be so harsh on Anders simply for his dislike of Fenris when their dislike is mutual.

[Lawlita]

 So many pages ~_~ I skimmed a lot of pages between release date and this weekend but you guys are prolific!

Anyone know when the ribbon on his wrist shows up? I thought I had pinpointed when I botched his romance last playthrough but I checked the save files and I may still be clueless as to where I messed up. When I grabbed his wrist, I also got the "best for both of us if I leave" departure and nothing after that. Trying a rivalmance this time without flirting at all with anyone else (despite several accounts of people bedhopping successfully), but I'll be breathing a sigh of relief when I see that ribbon...

[upsettingshorts]

senorfuzzylips wrote...

Wow, the betrayal of Fenris is a depressing video. Fenris's defeated body language after agreeing to go with Danarius is what really killed me.

It was great.  Due to a bug I saw it happen five times - every time I fast traveled to the Hanged Man I had to sell him again - and after the first couple I just started admiring how well done the scene was.  

senorfuzzylips wrote...

Your Hawke sounds a bit like a narcissistic sociopath, Shorts. Heh. I have a hard time RPing characters so far removed from my own feelings, but I can see how it would make for an interesting play through.

Narcissist most assuredly.  I'd say his narcissism started out at something of a healthy pro-self level and as the situation in Kirkwall escalated and he rose to power it escalated as well into megalomania.  Think about how the game could play out - a guy like that who solves every problem, dozens of them, for years and years - eventually so that the highest figures of the local culture are asking him to fix their lives.  Sociopath though... not really.  He would be remorseful of his actions, he would know that doing what he did in that situation was ultimately unethical, and he is capable of feeling intensely emotional about things to which he does have a real personal connection, like his mother. 

That's why what Anders did crushed him as a person.  Not only did he fail, all of the choices he made to try to keep the peace in Kirkwall - from not making enemies to shoring up his own power base - were in that moment completely invalided.  Including sending Fenris back to the Magister.  

It's more of a difference of priorities.  He would value his own judgment of what was best over sentiment or principle.

senorfuzzylips wrote...

And Fenris isn't really that broody. He jokes with some of the characters (not the mages of course...lol), and laughs with a humorous Hawke. Well, okay, maybe he's still rather broody compared... everyone else.

He is if you don't give him much of a chance and my character didn't really.  Although I did get to see what kind of stoic David Gaider meant earlier... the kind of stoic that acts like it's no big deal you just told him off, apologizes for offending you, and then hits you with +20 Rivalry.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 mars 2011 - 09:36 .

[TheLiterator]

@Upsettingshorts

I actually quite agree with that assessment. I was strongly considering doing my warrior playthrough as a heartless bastard; and while I'm not sure I will end actually doing companion quests, you make fairly valid points. For instance, in my first playthrough, once I learned Kelder was not a mage, I let him live, because upon learning that his dad was the city official who gave me the quest I thought-- "Man, it would be stupid to cross him."

Of course, by the time Act III came along, and the Danarius quest, I had friend romanced Fenris (his anti-mage ways tended to agree with mine. Plus, Ravynn [I literally laughed aloud when I saw your Hawke's name, btw.] has a thing for elves. IDK. He's just Thedas nobility like the rest of them, I suppose.) and couldn't hand him over like that. It was just too much effort down the drain. Also, Danarius is a MAGE which was enough to ****** my char off and kill him straight away anyway.

[TheLiterator]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

He is if you don't give him much of a chance and my character didn't really.  Although I did get to see what kind of stoic David Gaider meant earlier... the kind of stoic that acts like it's no big deal you just told him off, apologizes for offending you, and then hits you with +20 Rivalry.

Well, that's certainly not the way an Epicurean would react. :innocent:

[ThatDancingTurian]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hence the comment about his potential friends.  It's more of a "what do I stand to gain from defending Fenris" question for him than a "what do I have to lose" question.   The answer to the former is "nothing." 

Fenris is hardly worthless as an ally. His skills in battle are practically unmatched, given his unique abilities and he has proven that he will follow Hawke anywhere (well, up to that point) regardless of his personal beliefs. That doesn't mean he won't voice his reservations. He's a man, not a drone.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Rayin didn't know that.  Plus all the powerful stuff he fought previously there was a reason for, like - getting rich in the Deep Roads. 

As far as his reputation goes, well that depends on what kind of reputation the character is trying to craft, does it?

Given how politics work in Tevinter, killing Danarius would probably earn Hawke respect in the Imperium. He would also earn respect from the Templars for taking out a dangerous mage. The apostates of Kirkwall likely would care little for the death of a foreigner, so it wouldn't affect his standing amongst them very much. All in all, not many downsides to that type of reputation.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 15 mars 2011 - 09:34 .

[upsettingshorts]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Fenris is hardly worthless as an ally.

Well, my metagame answer would be to say that as a 2HW Rayin had little use for another 2HW.  An in character comment would be that Rayin seemed to be doing just fine without ever using him.  So while he had great potential utility, that was all it was.  His contributions up to that point to his goals was minimal at best.

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

That doesn't mean he won't voice his reservations. He's a man, not a drone.

Never claimed anything to the contrary.  Anders has opinions.  Isabela has opinions - and yes, despite being in a romance he demanded she return that relic or else (why? to keep the peace! oh well...).  Merrill has opinions.  Only some of these worried my character given the situation.  Keep in mind Fenris is just one of those people Rayin would have killed/locked up/shipped to a different country if it meant peace.  And a lyrium-infused mage hating warrior is on the list.  Near the bottom - after a lot of other more dangerous broad thinking people - but still on it. 

Upsettingshorts wrote...

All in all, not many downsides to that type of reputation.

The downside would be it would show Rayin to have principles.  Rayin doesn't have principles, only solutions.  He is a problem solver, not an idealogue.  And while "he is anti slavery" seems like an easy and even worthwhile thing to be, it's still a position on an issue that can be exploited or undermined.  At least, that's what he wanted others to think.  Which is why so many people from so many sides came to him for help.  Granted the game allows for this anyway, but that's metagaming.  

In any case, I'm monopolizing the thread with a discussion about one of my characters and not really Fenris himself.  I'll keep going if people want to keep discussing it but I might as well point out I'm aware that the topic might be getting tiresome for others.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 mars 2011 - 09:45 .

[TheLiterator]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
]Fenris is hardly worthless as an ally. His skills in battle are practically unmatched, given his unique abilities and he has proven that he will follow Hawke anywhere (well, up to that point) regardless of his personal beliefs. That doesn't mean he won't voice his reservations. He's a man, not a drone.

I'd like to point out that if his PC was a 2h warrior, Fenris is worse than useless, because he's just not as good as the PC 2h, and that get's kind of annoying when playing hard (as my brother did on his 2h warrior; the only reason I know this.) The only advantage Fenris provides is his rogue-like skills of zipping around the battlefield and his mind-blast-esque skill, both of which you're liable to already have in the party as a 2h, since you need a seperate rogue and mage. My brother's favored party composition had himself as DPS (Fenris's role, I should think) Aveline as a tank, Anders as healing + buff farm of EPIC, and he switched out rogues because he didn't like any of their banter and would quickly get sick of Seb proselitysing and Isabela hitting on everything and Varric stating the obvious.

In that party structure, Fenris is not all that useful. Unless you go for two DPSers and no tank? Idk why you would, unless you are using a mage as one of the DPSers?

[fighterchick]

senorfuzzylips wrote...

Bluumberry wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

Only the depraved treat Fenris like that. Even if you didn't care for his views, that is a terrible thing.

Makes me wonder how anyone can romance Anders when you hear his reaction to betraying Fenris...

...if Anders were about to be turned into the Templars, Fenris would be elated. He'd probably burst into that dance he told Varric he was choreographing. It hardly seems fair to be so harsh on Anders simply for his dislike of Fenris when their dislike is mutual.

There's a conversation in the party banter between Fenris and Sebastian that makes me think otherwise.  Sebastian says they have a duty to turn in the mages (Merrill and Anders) to the Templars and that they should draw straws or something to see who should do it.  Fenris flat out refuses to even entertain the idea and tells Sebastian that he it's between him and Hawke should he turn them in.  Anders seems to be rude at Fenris at every turn, particularly his companion quest.  I don't see Fenris making those remarks back at Anders.  I see Anders as the much more extreme in his hatred of the two.  He even confronts Hawke about his relationship with Fenris when Hawke never so much as flirted with him, saying how Hawke should be with someone more open minded about mages. 

[ThatDancingTurian]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, my metagame answer would be to say that as a 2HW Rayin had little use for another 2HW.  An in
character comment would be that Rayin seemed to be doing just fine without ever using him.  So while he had great potential utility, that was all it was.  His contributions up to that point to his goals was minimal at best.

Eh, my metagamer says 2HWs are overpowered, so the more the merrier. Took Fenris and Carver with me in the final battle and it went smoother than any other fight I've done.

As for him not being useful because Hawke didn't use him.. Isn't that kind of blaming Fenris for Hawke not utilizing a powerful asset? It's the same argument that bugs me when people say they're angry at Fenris for turning on them when they never bothered to invest in a friendship with him at all.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The downside would be it would show Rayin to have principles.  Rayin doesn't have principles, only solutions.  He is a problem solver, not an idealogue.  And while "he is anti slavery" seems like an easy and even worthwhile thing to be, it's still a position on an issue that can be exploited or undermined.  At least, that's what he wanted others to think.  Which is why so many people from so many sides came to him for help.  Granted the game allows for this anyway, but that's metagaming. 

Not necessarily. Maybe he just wanted to kill Danarius. Maybe Danarius started it and he defended himself. It doesn't have to be about taking a stand against slavery or any sort of principle. He could just want to slay the dragon. If he's a narcissist, what's a better upside than a little glory?

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 15 mars 2011 - 09:49 .

[Bluumberry]

fighterchicks wrote...

senorfuzzylips wrote...

Bluumberry wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

Only the depraved treat Fenris like that. Even if you didn't care for his views, that is a terrible thing.

Makes me wonder how anyone can romance Anders when you hear his reaction to betraying Fenris...

...if Anders were about to be turned into the Templars, Fenris would be elated. He'd probably burst into that dance he told Varric he was choreographing. It hardly seems fair to be so harsh on Anders simply for his dislike of Fenris when their dislike is mutual.

There's a conversation in the party banter between Fenris and Sebastian that makes me think otherwise.  Sebastian says they have a duty to turn in the mages (Merrill and Anders) to the Templars and that they should draw straws or something to see who should do it.  Fenris flat out refuses to even entertain the idea and tells Sebastian that he it's between him and Hawke should he turn them in.  Anders seems to be rude at Fenris at every turn, particularly his companion quest.  I don't see Fenris making those remarks back at Anders.  I see Anders as the much more extreme in his hatred of the two.  He even confronts Hawke about his relationship with Fenris when Hawke never so much as flirted with him, saying how Hawke should be with someone more open minded about mages. 

I had seen this banter as well and was exactly my thoughts.


Oh and about thinking Fenris is useless...he does the dmg of a 2H and can tank as good as Aveline without being useless on the dmg side, how is that useless?

[empressdots]

fighterchicks wrote...

senorfuzzylips wrote...

Bluumberry wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

Only the depraved treat Fenris like that. Even if you didn't care for his views, that is a terrible thing.

Makes me wonder how anyone can romance Anders when you hear his reaction to betraying Fenris...

...if Anders were about to be turned into the Templars, Fenris would be elated. He'd probably burst into that dance he told Varric he was choreographing. It hardly seems fair to be so harsh on Anders simply for his dislike of Fenris when their dislike is mutual.

There's a conversation in the party banter between Fenris and Sebastian that makes me think otherwise.  Sebastian says they have a duty to turn in the mages (Merrill and Anders) to the Templars and that they should draw straws or something to see who should do it.  Fenris flat out refuses to even entertain the idea and tells Sebastian that he it's between him and Hawke should he turn them in.  Anders seems to be rude at Fenris at every turn, particularly his companion quest.  I don't see Fenris making those remarks back at Anders.  I see Anders as the much more extreme in his hatred of the two.  He even confronts Hawke about his relationship with Fenris when Hawke never so much as flirted with him, saying how Hawke should be with someone more open minded about mages. 

Yeah, I never saw Fenris as being half as coarse to Anders as Anders was to him. He did continuously get on Anders' case for what he did with Justice and made it clear that he didn't agree with Anders' idea of mage freedom, but until the end of the game where Anders pulls some truly outrageous stunts, he doesn't seem determined to turn him in, either. I mean, Fenris could have gone to the templars and led them straight to Anders' clinic anytime he wanted. But he never did. I think the difference between them is that Fenris hated Anders but put up with him, while Anders hated Fenris and was unwilling to put up with him. Some of the things Anders says to Fenris on various quests are completely eyeroll-worthy, like accusing his mage hatred of being "just jealousy."

Also, when Anders pulled me aside during his personal quest and wanted to know if I didn't want someone more open-minded than Fenris. What? Really? We have an intense rivalry, he's in the party at the moment, I've never flirted with you once, Anders, and you're still going to call Fenris a wild dog right in front of him to try and win me over?

[ThatDancingTurian]

fighterchicks wrote...

There's a conversation in the party banter between Fenris and Sebastian that makes me think otherwise.  Sebastian says they have a duty to turn in the mages (Merrill and Anders) to the Templars and that they should draw straws or something to see who should do it.  Fenris flat out refuses to even entertain the idea and tells Sebastian that he it's between him and Hawke should he turn them in.  Anders seems to be rude at Fenris at every turn, particularly his companion quest.  I don't see Fenris making those remarks back at Anders.  I see Anders as the much more extreme in his hatred of the two.  He even confronts Hawke about his relationship with Fenris when Hawke never so much as flirted with him, saying how Hawke should be with someone more open minded about mages.

I don't think Fenris hates Anders any less than Anders hates Fenris, Fenris simply isn't the type to say anything unless he feels it needs to be said.

I think Fenris would make the same kind of comment Anders made if Anders was to be taken away by the Templars, something in support of Hawke's action. I don't think he'd say something so snide as Anders' 'you really are just jealous' comment, though. He's more thoughtful about his words than that.

[TheLiterator]

Bluumberry wrote...

Oh and about thinking Fenris is useless...he does the dmg of a 2H and can tank as good as Aveline without being useless on the dmg side, how is that useless?

He's not a great tank. His specialisation class trees don't have threat generation, and I'm pretty sure the conventional idea is to pump up dex and cunning instead of con so he's doing more crits-- great for DPS, but not exactly optimal for a tank.

Modifié par TheLiterator, 15 mars 2011 - 10:01 .

[fighterchick]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

fighterchicks wrote...

There's a conversation in the party banter between Fenris and Sebastian that makes me think otherwise.  Sebastian says they have a duty to turn in the mages (Merrill and Anders) to the Templars and that they should draw straws or something to see who should do it.  Fenris flat out refuses to even entertain the idea and tells Sebastian that he it's between him and Hawke should he turn them in.  Anders seems to be rude at Fenris at every turn, particularly his companion quest.  I don't see Fenris making those remarks back at Anders.  I see Anders as the much more extreme in his hatred of the two.  He even confronts Hawke about his relationship with Fenris when Hawke never so much as flirted with him, saying how Hawke should be with someone more open minded about mages.

I don't think Fenris hates Anders any less than Anders hates Fenris, Fenris simply isn't the type to say anything unless he feels it needs to be said.

I think Fenris would make the same kind of comment Anders made if Anders was to be taken away by the Templars, something in support of Hawke's action. I don't think he'd say something so snide as Anders' 'you really are just jealous' comment, though. He's more thoughtful about his words than that.

To be fair, it just isn't seen.  Fenris never makes the same sort of comments that Anders does.  The level of hate at least seems more intense on Anders side because he gives voice to things that Fenris does not.  Plus, you know, I might be just a tad biased towards Fenris, maybe.  >_>

[TheLiterator]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

I don't think Fenris hates Anders any less than Anders hates Fenris, Fenris simply isn't the type to say anything unless he feels it needs to be said.

I think Fenris would make the same kind of comment Anders made if Anders was to be taken away by the Templars, something in support of Hawke's action. I don't think he'd say something so snide as Anders' 'you really are just jealous' comment, though. He's more thoughtful about his words than that.

Because he's a stoic. *I know it wasn't that funny but for some reason I'm still cracking up. I blame it on the time.*

[upsettingshorts]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

 It's the same argument that bugs me when people say they're angry at Fenris for turning on them when they never bothered to invest in a friendship with him at all.

I don't think it's the same.   I was only pointing out that if he relied on the guy more he would have placed a higher value on keeping him around.  That being said, this is a relative thing.  It's not as if Anders wasn't an important part of his team, and I bet you can guess what happened to him.  

My Hawke didn't blame Fenris for not being more useful.  His history of not being useful, for whatever reason, simply counted against him. 

Upsettingshorts wrote...
 If he's a narcissist, what's a better upside than a little glory?

Well narcissism manifests itself in different ways.  I don't think Rayin cared about being famous - except in that such fame can be leveraged as a tool, nor was he paritcularly glory seeking for it's own sake.  He wanted to prove to himself that he could do things.   As I implied earlier, his narcissism was mostly healthy - and some level of it can be - it was only late (like, Act 3) that the perceived failures around him (say, Meredith and Orsino etc) caused it to develop into more of a complex.

Bluumberry wrote...

Oh and about thinking Fenris is useless...he does the dmg of a 2H and can tank as good as Aveline without being useless on the dmg side, how is that useless?

He's not, let's not take my in-character comments and turn them into an indictment of the character.  In my game he was simply superflous, in the same way that Merrill might be if you're playing a Blood Mage, or Aveline if you're playing a sword and board tank.  You could take two, for any number of reasons, but Hawke's "class double" does lose some inherent usefulness if their role is covered by the protagonist, who must be present in every party.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 mars 2011 - 10:03 .

[fighterchick]

TheLiterator wrote...

Bluumberry wrote...

Oh and about thinking Fenris is useless...he does the dmg of a 2H and can tank as good as Aveline without being useless on the dmg side, how is that useless?

He's not a great tank. His class trees don't have threat generation, and I'm pretty sure the conventional idea is to pump up dex and cunning instead of con so he's doing more crits-- great for DPS, but not exactly optimal for a tank.

I'm sorry, but what does DPS mean?  I always forget.  

[upsettingshorts]

DPS means damage per second. Basically "damage dealing."

[empressdots]

fighterchicks wrote...

TheLiterator wrote...

Bluumberry wrote...

Oh and about thinking Fenris is useless...he does the dmg of a 2H and can tank as good as Aveline without being useless on the dmg side, how is that useless?

He's not a great tank. His class trees don't have threat generation, and I'm pretty sure the conventional idea is to pump up dex and cunning instead of con so he's doing more crits-- great for DPS, but not exactly optimal for a tank.

I'm sorry, but what does DPS mean?  I always forget.  

Damage per second. It's an MMO term for "damager" as opposed to tank or healer

That said, I used Fenris as my tank and he was a fantastic tank. It's just about pumping his str/con/some willpower, keeping bravery up, and using his abilities wisely. He's the best tank in the game as long as you set his tactics to the tank subset and keep an eye on them as you level him.

[TheComfyCat]

fighterchicks wrote...

senorfuzzylips wrote...

Bluumberry wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

Only the depraved treat Fenris like that. Even if you didn't care for his views, that is a terrible thing.

Makes me wonder how anyone can romance Anders when you hear his reaction to betraying Fenris...

...if Anders were about to be turned into the Templars, Fenris would be elated. He'd probably burst into that dance he told Varric he was choreographing. It hardly seems fair to be so harsh on Anders simply for his dislike of Fenris when their dislike is mutual.

There's a conversation in the party banter between Fenris and Sebastian that makes me think otherwise.  Sebastian says they have a duty to turn in the mages (Merrill and Anders) to the Templars and that they should draw straws or something to see who should do it.  Fenris flat out refuses to even entertain the idea and tells Sebastian that he it's between him and Hawke should he turn them in.  Anders seems to be rude at Fenris at every turn, particularly his companion quest.  I don't see Fenris making those remarks back at Anders.  I see Anders as the much more extreme in his hatred of the two.  He even confronts Hawke about his relationship with Fenris when Hawke never so much as flirted with him, saying how Hawke should be with someone more open minded about mages. 

I don't doubt that Fenris wouldn't take it upon himself to turn in apostates, but I can definitely see him jumping for joy if Hawke had decided to turn Anders in. Fenris's comments make it clear he is not fond of Anders and finds him dangerous. But I wouldn't expect him to be as vocal or intense as Anders, considering how Anders gets extra emotional on such topics because of Justice/ Vengeance, whereas Fenris is much likely to appear calm while exuding hatred.

[fighterchick]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DPS means damage per second. Basically "damage dealing."

Before I forget, what was your opinion on Fenris overall, not in regards to your character.  I always enjoy reading your opinion, so I'm curious.

[Bluumberry]

fighterchicks wrote...

TheLiterator wrote...

Bluumberry wrote...

Oh and about thinking Fenris is useless...he does the dmg of a 2H and can tank as good as Aveline without being useless on the dmg side, how is that useless?

He's not a great tank. His class trees don't have threat generation, and I'm pretty sure the conventional idea is to pump up dex and cunning instead of con so he's doing more crits-- great for DPS, but not exactly optimal for a tank.

I'm sorry, but what does DPS mean?  I always forget.  

Damage-per-second but it's usually a term that means a damager dealer. Ie not a healer and not a tank.

And while Fenris might not be the optimal tank, he gets the job done. I never had any threat issues with him tanking at least.

[fighterchick]

What exactly is a tank then?