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[ThatDancingTurian]

fighterchicks wrote...

To be fair, it just isn't seen.  Fenris never makes the same sort of comments that Anders does.  The level of hate at least seems more intense on Anders side because he gives voice to things that Fenris does not.  Plus, you know, I might be just a tad biased towards Fenris, maybe.  >_>

But when you consider everything Fenris has said, Anders is a textbook case of everything Fenris loathes. He willingly became an abomination to further his goals, he's got a power inside him that he can't completely control and is always one step from the edge, making him a danger to himself and others. And he allowed that to happen all for the purpose of freeing other mages from those who would hold them accountable. If there was a checklist of things Fenris hates, Anders would have a check in every box.

I don't think Anders hates Fenris more, Anders just doesn't know how to shut up about it.

[Bluumberry]

fighterchicks wrote...

What exactly is a tank then?

Tank is another mmo term. It basically is the person who takes the enemies attention on them and keeps them off the more squishy party members.

[empressdots]

fighterchicks wrote...

What exactly is a tank then?

A tank is a character that keeps the enemies hitting them instead of more fragile characters like rogues and mages! They have bigger health pools, more armor, and abilities to keep enemies glued to them like warriors' Taunt and Bravery.

[Bluumberry]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

I don't think Anders hates Fenris more, Anders just doesn't know how to shut up about it.

Why hello there Carver!

Modifié par Bluumberry, 15 mars 2011 - 10:14 .

[upsettingshorts]

fighterchicks wrote...

Before I forget, what was your opinion on Fenris overall, not in regards to your character.  I always enjoy reading your opinion, so I'm curious.

Heh, my second character - well, third, I grew to hate my second - is a very angry mage who would be complicit in Anders' whole scheme if the game let her.  So to give a full, reasonable opinion I kinda have to wait until I play a character who will actually like the guy.

From what I've seen though I enjoy the fact that - as I mentioned above - he seems to shrug off things that deep down end up bothering him.  I expect that once I do play that character I'll like him just fine.  My favorites are probably going to be Isabela and Varric, though.  Because they're so much less serious than everyone else and a game this dark needs that levity to come from somewhere.

On tanks:

A character that occupies the attention of the big enemies.  How they stay alive doing so is something for the mechanics to decide.  If you check out the Vanguard/Nightmare thread in the gameplay section you'll find that "tanking" is basically about luring mooks into your meat grinder so you can kill them really, really quickly.  Most often though it is as people say, they have high HP, high defense, and can absorb damage well.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 mars 2011 - 10:15 .

[fighterchick]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

fighterchicks wrote...

To be fair, it just isn't seen.  Fenris never makes the same sort of comments that Anders does.  The level of hate at least seems more intense on Anders side because he gives voice to things that Fenris does not.  Plus, you know, I might be just a tad biased towards Fenris, maybe.  >_>

But when you consider everything Fenris has said, Anders is a textbook case of everything Fenris loathes. He willingly became an abomination to further his goals, he's got a power inside him that he can't completely control and is always one step from the edge, making him a danger to himself and others. And he allowed that to happen all for the purpose of freeing other mages from those who would hold them accountable. If there was a checklist of things Fenris hates, Anders would have a check in every box.

I don't think Anders hates Fenris more, Anders just doesn't know how to shut up about it.

I agree, that's why I said it seems like Anders hates Fenris more because he's just more vocal about it.  I'm rather glad that Fenris doesn't pipe up at every turn (aside from the party banters) about Anders, or saying he'd love him to get taken away by the templars.  

[ThatDancingTurian]

Personally, I'm glad the two of them can't stand each other, even if I dislike the way Anders expresses his feelings on the subject. It's the shallow fangirl side of me. I wanted Garrus and Thane to fight over my Shepard in ME2 but no dice, they're just too agreeable. ::sigh::

[TheComfyCat]

Fenris can pretty easily tank on normal/ casual, assuming your party is set up with decent tactics and is utilizing cross class combos. I'd imagine you'd want a more traditional tank for some of the more demanding fights, but only when playing on the harder difficulties (namely those optional side quests with mini bosses).

A tank should be able to take a fair amount of damage since there are stretches between healing/ potion cool downs, and the sword and board style tanks are a bit better for that. Fenris is a fine tank when playing normal or casual difficulties, though.

Modifié par senorfuzzylips, 15 mars 2011 - 10:15 .

[Bluumberry]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Personally, I'm glad the two of them can't stand each other, even if I dislike the way Anders expresses his feelings on the subject. It's the shallow fangirl side of me. I wanted Garrus and Thane to fight over my Shepard in ME2 but no dice, they're just too agreeable. ::sigh::

Off topic but I never understood why some want a LI that is still hooked up on their dead wife?

[TheLiterator]

Bluumberry wrote...

fighterchicks wrote...

TheLiterator wrote...

Bluumberry wrote...

Oh and about thinking Fenris is useless...he does the dmg of a 2H and can tank as good as Aveline without being useless on the dmg side, how is that useless?

He's not a great tank. His class trees don't have threat generation, and I'm pretty sure the conventional idea is to pump up dex and cunning instead of con so he's doing more crits-- great for DPS, but not exactly optimal for a tank.

I'm sorry, but what does DPS mean?  I always forget.  

Damage-per-second but it's usually a term that means a damager dealer. Ie not a healer and not a tank.

And while Fenris might not be the optimal tank, he gets the job done. I never had any threat issues with him tanking at least.

I don't understand why you'd use a non-optimal tank, except for rp reasons, when you've got Aveline. Use him for DPS; it's what his trees are made for.

[Bluumberry]

TheLiterator wrote...

Bluumberry wrote...

fighterchicks wrote...

TheLiterator wrote...

Bluumberry wrote...

Oh and about thinking Fenris is useless...he does the dmg of a 2H and can tank as good as Aveline without being useless on the dmg side, how is that useless?

He's not a great tank. His class trees don't have threat generation, and I'm pretty sure the conventional idea is to pump up dex and cunning instead of con so he's doing more crits-- great for DPS, but not exactly optimal for a tank.

I'm sorry, but what does DPS mean?  I always forget.  

Damage-per-second but it's usually a term that means a damager dealer. Ie not a healer and not a tank.

And while Fenris might not be the optimal tank, he gets the job done. I never had any threat issues with him tanking at least.

I don't understand why you'd use a non-optimal tank, except for rp reasons, when you've got Aveline. Use him for DPS; it's what his trees are made for.

They're made for dps? How? His personal specialisation tree is half dps/half tanking.

[upsettingshorts]

senorfuzzylips wrote...

Fenris can tank without much difficulty on normal, assuming your party is set up with decent tactics and is utilizing cross class combos. I'd imagine you'd want a more traditional tank for some of the more demanding fights, but only when playing on the harder difficulties (namely those optional side quests with mini bosses).

A tank should be able to take a fair amount of damage since there are stretches between healing/ potion cool downs, and the sword and board style tanks are a bit better for that. Fenris is a fine tank when playing normal or casual difficulties, though.

Heh not to pimp the thread a second time but I've tried out the stuff in this thread.  "Tanks" need not be sword and board or even be concerned with defense to be effective even on Nightmare if they simply melt mobs before they can do much damage.  Warriors built along that plan deal so much burst damage that by far the biggest cause of death for my team is getting in the way of Rayin's sword (they get killed near instantly the damage is so high).

I think Fenris could work too in that setup, perhaps not *quite* as well, as he can't spec into Templar - but well enough that you probably don't need a "proper" tank.  The OP in that thread really put together a great plan.  In fact I might try it with Fenris as the main 2H warrior role when I try my next game.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 mars 2011 - 10:20 .

[TheComfyCat]

Bluumberry wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Personally, I'm glad the two of them can't stand each other, even if I dislike the way Anders expresses his feelings on the subject. It's the shallow fangirl side of me. I wanted Garrus and Thane to fight over my Shepard in ME2 but no dice, they're just too agreeable. ::sigh::

Off topic but I never understood why some want a LI that is still hooked up on their dead wife?

...probably not the best can of worms to open up in the Fenris thread... but the answer for most people is probably related to the fact that Thane is awesome.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Bluumberry wrote...

Off topic but I never understood why some want a LI that is still hooked up on their dead wife?

I don't know, I don't see the appeal of it at all. I'm glad that rumor about Fenris having a wife turned out to be a wicked lie.

Actually, I kind of loved that Fenris doesn't have anything to say about former lovers. They left room for him to have had others, we just didn't have waste time hearing about them. That's how it should work, BioWare!

[upsettingshorts]

OT: Because "my dead wife" is writing shorthand for "how I view relationships and therefore you." At least in Thane's case. Otherwise you'd have to discover how he feels about his significant others through time, which the game can't really accomplish.

That's my theory anyway. And considering it's more or less known that Thane was designed specifically to appeal as an LI, I don't think it's an unreasonable theory.  That beng said I also don't think it's an "approach" that would "work" on everybody or anything.  Same way Isabela is going to appeal to some (me) and not others (people who get their comments about her censored by the BSN).

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

 That's how it should work, BioWare!

Sometimes.  The worst thing BioWare could do when it comes to LIs and companions in general is to fall into obvious, stale patterns.   Like, not having a dwarf LI...

*looks at Varric*
*Varric looks at Bianca*
*sigh*

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 mars 2011 - 10:25 .

[fighterchick]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Bluumberry wrote...

Off topic but I never understood why some want a LI that is still hooked up on their dead wife?

I don't know, I don't see the appeal of it at all. I'm glad that rumor about Fenris having a wife turned out to be a wicked lie.

Actually, I kind of loved that Fenris doesn't have anything to say about former lovers. They left room for him to have had others, we just didn't have waste time hearing about them. That's how it should work, BioWare!

Agreed.  I don't particularly mind when LIs have the past baggage, but to harp on and on about it just gets annoying.  "Oh yeah, I was married.  She was the love of my life.  You remind me of her."  Oh, really?  that's...great.  I totally want to be loved because of someone I remind them of.    Same issue in real life relationships.  i don't care about past relationships and how many someone's had so long as I don't have to constantly hear about them or be compared to people in the past.  It's just...weird.  

[ThatDancingTurian]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sometimes.  The worst thing BioWare could do when it comes to LIs and companions in general is to fall into obvious, stale patterns.   Like, not having a dwarf LI...

Well love them or hate them, I think they definitely broke out of their typical mold with the two guys in DA2.

EDIT: But I do wish Varric was an option. I'd trade Sebastian's 'chaste romance' for even a fling with Varric... And if it could happen during those years my Hawke and Fenris were on a break, all the better!

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 15 mars 2011 - 10:27 .

[TheLiterator]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

senorfuzzylips wrote...

Fenris can tank without much difficulty on normal, assuming your party is set up with decent tactics and is utilizing cross class combos. I'd imagine you'd want a more traditional tank for some of the more demanding fights, but only when playing on the harder difficulties (namely those optional side quests with mini bosses).

A tank should be able to take a fair amount of damage since there are stretches between healing/ potion cool downs, and the sword and board style tanks are a bit better for that. Fenris is a fine tank when playing normal or casual difficulties, though.

Heh not to pimp the thread a second time but I've tried out the stuff in this thread.  "Tanks" need not be sword and board or even be concerned with defense to be effective even on Nightmare if they simply melt mobs before they can do much damage.  Warriors built along that plan deal so much burst damage that by far the biggest cause of death for my team is getting in the way of Rayin's sword (they get killed near instantly the damage is so high).

I think Fenris could work too in that setup, perhaps not *quite* as well, as he can't spec into Templar - but well enough that you probably don't need a "proper" tank.  The OP in that thread really put together a great plan.  In fact I might try it with Fenris as the main 2H warrior role when I try my next game.

Yeah, my warrior is gonna be a nightmare run-- I've been keeping a close eye on that thread, and he seems to have some good ideas.

IDK, I guess I figure the delineations are alittle more solid than all of that-- while I wouldn't go so far as to say a tank HAS to be a sword and board warrior, he does have to absorb damage like no one's business and draw threat. A warrior who makes his enemies die in a rain of gooey gorey pixels is awesome, no denying that, but that's dps, not tanking.

This might be the WoW talking, (and let me tell you, hitting spacebar in an arena match because "OMIGOD PAUSE SOMEONE HEAL ME!!!" is about as completely hilarious to everyone in the battle as you might imagine. Jumping means you stop abilities, lose combo points, and-- you know. Die. Epically.) but tanks aren't MEANT to melt their enemies. They're meant to draw threat, and that becomes a useless skill if they're just... IDK, hitting buttons on the quickbar a couple times and then wandering merrily on, another mob vanquished.

[TheLiterator]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sometimes.  The worst thing BioWare could do when it comes to LIs and companions in general is to fall into obvious, stale patterns.   Like, not having a dwarf LI...

Well love them or hate them, I think they definitely broke out of their typical mold with the two guys in DA2.

EDIT: But I do wish Varric was an option. I'd trade Sebastian's 'chaste
romance' for even a fling with Varric... And if it could happen during
those years my Hawke and Fenris were on a break, all the better!

But the two girls kind of fit the Madonna/Wh*re complex to a t, so there is that.

(I have a whole conspiracy about how Bioware was completely trolling us with all the romances this time through. Healing Power of Sex? REALLY?)

[upsettingshorts]

TheLiterator wrote...

IDK, I guess I figure the delineations are alittle more solid than all of that-- while I wouldn't go so far as to say a tank HAS to be a sword and board warrior, he does have to absorb damage like no one's business and draw threat. A warrior who makes his enemies die in a rain of gooey gorey pixels is awesome, no denying that, but that's dps, not tanking.

Yes and no.  In that thread the tank does gain threat, but indirectly.  Varric spams Goad and Armistice and other abilities that direct threat to the warrior.  The warrior doesn't even spec Taunt, but mobs still end up being drawn to him much more than the other companions, which satisfies the primary role of the tank - draw the attention of the enemy.  That the warrior then proceeds to butcher them with Cleave/Scythe/Whirlwind/Holy Smite is just the way of dealing with the aggro.

So in that sense the setup calls for the warrior to fulfill the role of both primary tank (aggro) and primary DPS.  Which is why it's built around tactics and primarily controlling that character.  

Back on topic, briefly, I do think Fenris could do it.  Most of the stuff I've done with my Nightmare playthrough so far was pre-Templar spec addition, and only one point in Reaver.  The rest - Vanguard and 2H trees - are available to Fenris, and if you spec out his unique tree for damage, it probably works out.  Just give him all the Tomes of Technique and such instead of your protagonist, because in such a setup he'd be the key to the party.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 mars 2011 - 10:32 .

[Lara Denton]

Does Fenris initiate the romance if you don't? Like Anders does?

[TheLiterator]

And to continue the OT: You could theoretically make a decent tank ROGUE if you use Scoundrel and Duelist trees. But mot an optimal tank. I'm mostly too attached to my assassin tree of epic to try this, but IDK, it might be something.

Back on topic-- all of the Fenris specific skills dealing with threat are to reduce threat-- which means his tree is not good for tanking at all.

[upsettingshorts]

TheLiterator wrote...

Back on topic-- all of the Fenris specific skills dealing with threat are to reduce threat-- which means his tree is not good for tanking at all.

I'm gonna go into the game and have Fenris down a respec potion and see if I can build something that could accomplish  - generally - what my 2HW is.  Be back in a bit.

[TheLiterator]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TheLiterator wrote...

IDK, I guess I figure the delineations are alittle more solid than all of that-- while I wouldn't go so far as to say a tank HAS to be a sword and board warrior, he does have to absorb damage like no one's business and draw threat. A warrior who makes his enemies die in a rain of gooey gorey pixels is awesome, no denying that, but that's dps, not tanking.

Yes and no.  In that thread the tank does gain threat, but indirectly.  Varric spams Goad and Armistice and other abilities that direct threat to the warrior.  The warrior doesn't even spec Taunt, but mobs still end up being drawn to him much more than the other companions, which satisfies the primary role of the tank - draw the attention of the enemy.  That the warrior then proceeds to butcher them with Cleave/Scythe/Whirlwind/Holy Smite is just the way of dealing with the aggro.

So in that sense the setup calls for the warrior to fulfill the role of both primary tank (aggro) and primary DPS.  Which is why it's built around tactics and primarily controlling that character.  

Back on topic, briefly, I do think Fenris could do it.  Most of the stuff I've done with my Nightmare playthrough so far was pre-Templar spec addition, and only one point in Reaver.  The rest - Vanguard and 2H trees - are available to Fenris, and if you spec out his unique tree for damage, it probably works out.  Just give him all the Tomes of Technique and such instead of your protagonist, because in such a setup he'd be the key to the party.

I suppose that makes sense. But he's more of... a scapegoat tank than a tank tank. Everyone else is shrugging threat and tossing it his way, rather than him drawing threat, which dismays my sensebilities. And I like the rogue-y parts of Fenris's tree a lot, but I can see how ignoring them might be beneficial.

After all, I only did the healing parts of Anders's tree both playthroughs, which worked out well.

[TheComfyCat]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Heh not to pimp the thread a second time but I've tried out the stuff in this thread.  "Tanks" need not be sword and board or even be concerned with defense to be effective even on Nightmare if they simply melt mobs before they can do much damage. 

I think Fenris could work too in that setup, perhaps not *quite* as well, as he can't spec into Templar - but well enough that you probably don't need a "proper" tank.  The OP in that thread really put together a great plan.  In fact I might try it with Fenris as the main 2H warrior role when I try my next game.

Oh, interesting thread... I do like atypical party arrangements. If you do try out Fenris in that setup, do keep us informed of how it turns out.