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[ThatDancingTurian]

I love Merrill and Fenris. I thought Fenris was harsh, but hardly cruel and heartless. Merrill is a grown woman, not a little child. She needs to take responsibility even if she's responsible only through willful ignorance.

I took every opportunity to turn Merrill from blood magic. Fenris did as well in his convos with her, IIRC. She ignored the warnings and in the end it cost her her family. He's hard on her because he's seen magic destroy lives and every time he tries to tell her that she ignores him. He's trying to beat it into her head, maybe it means he actually cares. Fenris doesn't believe in coddling anyone.

[UltiPup]

Ooooh snap. Ok so I Friendmanced Fenris. Did the Alone quest. I was planning onto trying to get him to move in, but then the scene was so different. Isabela was there instead of Varric and Aveline. And it was a normal ending, no option to ask him to move in.

Isabela ruins my love D:

[Emperor Iaius I]

Amusingly enough, I just wrote a post on this exact thing in another thread. Or perhaps it's not a surprise, considering how many people think she's being foolish and how wrong I think they are. So.... read the quote:

I posted:

It's the Keeper's fault, plain and simple. Merrill knew what she was doing. She knew her odds of success were low, she knew there was great risk of possession, and she knew it meant she would have to be killed. She accepted all this for the sake of her people. They didn't appreciate it. Her Keeper, who should have known her better than anyone, didn't trust her. Nobody gave her any sort of support, and when the Keeper ruined everything by *willingly* taking in the demon, everybody blamed Merrill for it, as if the Keeper had no responsibility.

It's disgusting. The Dalish deserve to love their heritage and culture, but it would be a shame to let the petty small-mindedness of her clan deprive the future generations of what Merrill was trying to do. The Keeper had no idea what the mirror would do. It had taken Tamlen because it had been tainted by darkspawn. Merrill cleansed the taint. She knew what she was doing.

Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with blood magic. As noted, the ancient Tevinter magisters were able to *control* the demons--such was their mastery of magic that they could assault the Golden City itself. Now mages are barely trained and kept forcibly ignorant: it's no wonder they access powers beyond their knowledge and get overwhelmed. Merrill wasn't being emotional. She was thoughtful. She was educated. She was careful. She didn't let it consume her. It's telling that she never went down the path of other blood mages, despite using it for years. It's also telling that the Tevinter blood mages we see aren't psychotic like those of Kirkwall.

Merrill was trying to combine the knowledge and potency of the magisters with her sense of responsibility and tradition. She was bravely trying something new and with a good heart and the world hated her for it.

Well, fie on the world! Smolder in your hatreds and light your pitchforks, O angry village people! Slay her for daring to think, deride her for caring about the past (yes, you, Aveline, you philistine giant), and scold her for trying to help her people. She is the biggest, most self-sacrificial person in the whole game and people hate her. Pitiful.

So, key points.

I. She purified the darn thing.
II. She knew she might get possessed, and accounted for it.
III. There was a chance that she couldn't, and she patiently tried to refine her skills at blood magic over the years and she avoided being corrupted like so many others because she recreated the old ways. There is a theory that humans learned blood magic not from the old gods, but from the elves of Arlathan. Keep this in mind.
IV. She did all this for her people, who didn't appreciate it, and her keeper, who sabotaged her and never let her try. She had a fail-safe. The Keeper blundered in like an old fool, and everybody blames Merrill.

[ThatDancingTurian]

I doubt you can purify something with blood magic. That's just replacing one demon's influence with another. Her pride led her to believe it was purified, I think.

But anyway, this is the Fenris thread, not the Merrill thread.

[Bruddajakka]

Marathari is responsible for what happened to herself not Merrill. She allowed herself to be possessed no body forced her into it.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Yes, sorry. If you want to reply to me in more detail, we can adjourn there. Suffice it to say that I disagree. Blood magic does not necessarily have to involve demons, nor is it inherently impure.

Back to Fenris then. One thing that I was curious about is how he might have reacted had his sister truly decided to live with him. Given all the pain he's bottled up and his vanished memories (though bits were returning), could he have taken it? They were siblings but effectively strangers, given the memory issue: could they have built a relationship?

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 16 mars 2011 - 07:02 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

UltiPup wrote...

Ooooh snap. Ok so I Friendmanced Fenris. Did the Alone quest. I was planning onto trying to get him to move in, but then the scene was so different. Isabela was there instead of Varric and Aveline. And it was a normal ending, no option to ask him to move in.

Isabela ruins my love D:

Does anyone have a video of Hawke asking him to move in? He actually accepts it? Seriously considering abandoning my current plans and friendmancing Fenris... >_>

[Lady Jess]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Amusingly enough, I just wrote a post on this exact thing in another thread. Or perhaps it's not a surprise, considering how many people think she's being foolish and how wrong I think they are. So.... read the quote:

Well if thats your stance, why not keep your hatred of Fenris for his reaction to her on the Merill thread? And if you were going to bring it here, did you also go to Anders' thread as well? Because he is pretty bad at that point too. So I hope you were at least fair about it. 
As for Fenris, You expect him to be civil? You expect him to be nice? He was an abused SLAVE to a MAGISTER most of his life.

Modifié par Lady Jess, 16 mars 2011 - 07:05 .

[Evindell]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Amusingly enough, I just wrote a post on this exact thing in another thread. Or perhaps it's not a surprise, considering how many people think she's being foolish and how wrong I think they are. So.... read the quote:

I posted:

It's the Keeper's fault, plain and simple. Merrill knew what she was doing. She knew her odds of success were low, she knew there was great risk of possession, and she knew it meant she would have to be killed. She accepted all this for the sake of her people. They didn't appreciate it. Her Keeper, who should have known her better than anyone, didn't trust her. Nobody gave her any sort of support, and when the Keeper ruined everything by *willingly* taking in the demon, everybody blamed Merrill for it, as if the Keeper had no responsibility.

It's disgusting. The Dalish deserve to love their heritage and culture, but it would be a shame to let the petty small-mindedness of her clan deprive the future generations of what Merrill was trying to do. The Keeper had no idea what the mirror would do. It had taken Tamlen because it had been tainted by darkspawn. Merrill cleansed the taint. She knew what she was doing.

Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with blood magic. As noted, the ancient Tevinter magisters were able to *control* the demons--such was their mastery of magic that they could assault the Golden City itself. Now mages are barely trained and kept forcibly ignorant: it's no wonder they access powers beyond their knowledge and get overwhelmed. Merrill wasn't being emotional. She was thoughtful. She was educated. She was careful. She didn't let it consume her. It's telling that she never went down the path of other blood mages, despite using it for years. It's also telling that the Tevinter blood mages we see aren't psychotic like those of Kirkwall.

Merrill was trying to combine the knowledge and potency of the magisters with her sense of responsibility and tradition. She was bravely trying something new and with a good heart and the world hated her for it.

Well, fie on the world! Smolder in your hatreds and light your pitchforks, O angry village people! Slay her for daring to think, deride her for caring about the past (yes, you, Aveline, you philistine giant), and scold her for trying to help her people. She is the biggest, most self-sacrificial person in the whole game and people hate her. Pitiful.

So, key points.

I. She purified the darn thing.
II. She knew she might get possessed, and accounted for it.
III. There was a chance that she couldn't, and she patiently tried to refine her skills at blood magic over the years and she avoided being corrupted like so many others because she recreated the old ways. There is a theory that humans learned blood magic not from the old gods, but from the elves of Arlathan. Keep this in mind.
IV. She did all this for her people, who didn't appreciate it, and her keeper, who sabotaged her and never let her try. She had a fail-safe. The Keeper blundered in like an old fool, and everybody blames Merrill.

Like I said, I NEVER hated Merrill. We were good friends, though I never got her to 100% because I didn't support her blood magic. I did give her the knife, though I still expressed doubts about the Mirror and what she was doing. I believe in the argument that blood magic isn't inherently evil, but my Hawke understood that it was a danger. She was already an apostate, and she wasn't about to add another point against her. For most of my game she was just trying to blend in, gather her riches, bask in her new life in Hightown, and support her mother. She didn't want the war between the Templars and the Circle. But when it came it was not lost on her that the threat of blood magic is what helped to drive Meredith to madness. If blood magic didn't exist, would things be different? I suppose the answer could be no, but it wouldn't hurt to be rid of the damn thing.  

Blood magic is not inherently evil, but the people who use it are almost always those grasping for power beyond their reach. That wasn't Merrill, which is why I believe she could resist. Fenris has seen what the depraved can do with blood magic (I believe he says once that he watched his master kill a boy to entertain some guests at a party), and I can understand and appreciate his hatred for it.

[Bruddajakka]

Ultimately all of the companions are responsible for there circumstances in DA2. Sure Fenris didn't ask to be a slave but he did choose to compete for the tattoos. Same as Merrill choose to use Blood Magic in an attempt to rebuild the mirror.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Back to Fenris then. One thing that I was curious about is how he might have reacted had his sister truly decided to live with him. Given all the pain he's bottled up and his vanished memories (though bits were returning), could he have taken it? They were siblings but effectively strangers, given the memory issue: could they have built a relationship?

I wonder if he would have eventually gotten all of his memories back if she had stayed, and whether or not he might even now considering being with Hawke had obviously caused them to resurface. They were kind of vague about where he was left on the memory issue.

I hesitate to say whether or not Varania would have been good for him. She seemed like a bit of a b*tch. He obviously cared for his family enough to use his boon to free them rather than for his own personal gain, and yet she held it against him because it didn't turn out like she hoped. Granted we don't know how his old personality was or really anything about their relationship before. Still, she seemed to care very little about him presently. And she could have clarified why exactly she thought being free was worse than being a slave. That didn't make a lot of sense to me. What's with ungrateful siblings in this game?

[Evindell]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

Ooooh snap. Ok so I Friendmanced Fenris. Did the Alone quest. I was planning onto trying to get him to move in, but then the scene was so different. Isabela was there instead of Varric and Aveline. And it was a normal ending, no option to ask him to move in.

Isabela ruins my love D:

Does anyone have a video of Hawke asking him to move in? He actually accepts it? Seriously considering abandoning my current plans and friendmancing Fenris... >_>

Basically, he asks where his future will take him and where he's supposed to go--I'm paraphrasing because I can't remember the exact dialogue, as it may change based on your responses--and you can choose the line "Stay with me".

What your character actually says is something akin to "Whatever it means, I hope we stay together." and he replies that that is his hope as well. And then you can make up after he apologizes for walking out on you. Technically, you never actually ask him to move into the estate. You two just decide you need to be together.

[UltiPup]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

Ooooh snap. Ok so I Friendmanced Fenris. Did the Alone quest. I was planning onto trying to get him to move in, but then the scene was so different. Isabela was there instead of Varric and Aveline. And it was a normal ending, no option to ask him to move in.

Isabela ruins my love D:

Does anyone have a video of Hawke asking him to move in? He actually accepts it? Seriously considering abandoning my current plans and friendmancing Fenris... >_>

Some say it is possible, others say no. It really is a headache. Well, his mansion is right next door. Just a hop, skip, and a jump to his arms. Unless Isabela tries to steal him. She's been doing that a lot.

[Bruddajakka]

Well she is an elf from what we've seen that seems to almost worse then being a slave in some cases.

[Lady Jess]

UltiPup wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

Ooooh snap. Ok so I Friendmanced Fenris. Did the Alone quest. I was planning onto trying to get him to move in, but then the scene was so different. Isabela was there instead of Varric and Aveline. And it was a normal ending, no option to ask him to move in.

Isabela ruins my love D:

Does anyone have a video of Hawke asking him to move in? He actually accepts it? Seriously considering abandoning my current plans and friendmancing Fenris... >_>

Some say it is possible, others say no. It really is a headache. Well, his mansion is right next door. Just a hop, skip, and a jump to his arms. Unless Isabela tries to steal him. She's been doing that a lot.

I caught her trying to bribe him into bed I think in a cut scene. 

[ThatDancingTurian]

Evindell wrote...

Basically, he asks where his future will take him and where he's supposed to go--I'm paraphrasing because I can't remember the exact dialogue, as it may change based on your responses--and you can choose the line "Stay with me".

What your character actually says is something akin to "Whatever it means, I hope we stay together." and he replies that that is his hope as well. And then you can make up after he apologizes for walking out on you. Technically, you never actually ask him to move into the estate. You two just decide you need to be together.

Ah, yes. I've heard about that line, I wouldn't have interpreted that as her asking him to move in so much as proclaiming her desire to be with him.

@UltiPup: True, but if he plans to keep living in that mansion long-term my Hawke's going to do a little redecorating.

Not that they'd be in Kirkwall long after that conversation anyway.

[Evindell]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Ultimately all of the companions are responsible for there circumstances in DA2. Sure Fenris didn't ask to be a slave but he did choose to compete for the tattoos. Same as Merrill choose to use Blood Magic in an attempt to rebuild the mirror.

THIS ^

It's actually why I like the companions more in DAII. In Origins their problem was the Blight. That was basically it. Yeah, Morrigan had Flementh, and Wynne was upset about that one elf-mage dude, but they were drawn to the Warden to stop the Blight.

In DAII I felt as if every companion was seeking an answer to the problems of their lives, and Hawke was the one to piece them back together. Though at first Fenris didn't know he had caused his own problems, he was still on the run from mages. Anders had chosen to let Justice in and was going insane by the minute (which is how I kind of saw it). Merrill chose to turn to blood magic and bear the stigma for something she wanted. People make their own problems. Yes the world itself is responsible for some of it, but you ultimately are responsible for every mistake, every regret.

[UltiPup]

I was still in Act 2 when Isabela and Fenris started to flirt. Decided it was time to haul ass before Fenris caught something bad. I wouldn't mind him sleeping with Isabela just once before we made it serious. I just don't want to catch something second handedly from her.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Lady Jess wrote...

Well if thats your stance, why not keep your hatred of Fenris for his reaction to her on the Merill thread? And if you were going to bring it here, did you also go to Anders' thread as well? Because he is pretty bad at that point too. So I hope you were at least fair about it. 
As for Fenris, You expect him to be civil? You expect him to be nice? He was an abused SLAVE to a MAGISTER most of his life.

I. I did get to kill Anders in the Fade when he complained about dealing with a demon, whereas I didn't actually give Fenris to Danarius, hence why I'm here and not there?

II. He was happy until he visited a bunch of hippies on Seheron! Yet another thing to blame the qunari for, I say. It's their fault, not the magisters who cared and provided for him, and who freed his family.

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

I hesitate to say whether or not Varania would have been good for him. She seemed like a bit of a b*tch. He obviously cared for his family enough to use his boon to free them rather than for his own personal gain, and yet she held it against him because it didn't turn out like she hoped. Granted we don't know how his old personality was or really anything about their relationship before. Still, she seemed to care very little about him presently. And she could have clarified why exactly she thought being free was worse than being a slave. That didn't make a lot of sense to me. What's with ungrateful siblings in this game?

I actually found that bit quite telling. He certainly didn't raise issues with his servitude before that stint on Seheron. Varania, who had tasted both slavery and freedom (without the added horror of the lyrium infusions) seemed to prefer the former. I presume it was because she had a relatively stable livelihood?

One of the things we need to remember is that DA resembles a feudal society. I have to imagine that she was living in the equivalent of an alienage, or darktown. Compared to the sort of lifestyle she'd have as a domestic slave. . . Feudal serfdom (or outright penury) is probably not substantially more free than slavery, and European serfs were generally worse off than Roman slaves. A similar sort of thing probably applies here.

The implants, combined with those hippies, is what makes Fenris different. That, I think, and the fact that he killed them. Reflex took over, but he had the added mental distance to realize what he'd done: the fact that he was one of them and killed them meant he'd also killed a part of himself, and I think that broke him.

[mellifera]

Hm, does the Tevinter Imperium have gladiatorial battles? I kinda vaguely remember a mention of them in regards to ancient Tevinter, and that's what my first thought was when Varania said Fenris competed for their freedom... then again, I have been watching way too much Spartacus Blood and Sand/Gods of the Arena lately .___.

Modifié par yukidama, 16 mars 2011 - 07:23 .

[Bruddajakka]

I would be surprised if they didn't. Hell one of the reasons I gave Orana a job was because she obviously wouldn't be able to function on her own. She's so childlike.

[Bluumberry]

I guess I need to try out more options during Alone when I next get to Act 3. Reading these posts is the first time I hear about Fenris competing for the markings and freeing his family Oo

[Auresta]

Bluumberry wrote...

I guess I need to try out more options during Alone when I next get to Act 3. Reading these posts is the first time I hear about Fenris competing for the markings and freeing his family Oo

The last part I actually just didn't take notice of when I did the quest - she did mention it during my playthrough but it didn't register in my mind that that was what she meant concerning competing for the lyrium scars.

[Fault Girl]

David Gaider confirmed he does not move in ever.

It is a fault with the guide. (it was in thread in the campaign section)


Which is annoying,

[Remaix]

ZombieGeisha wrote...

David Gaider confirmed he does not move in ever.

It is a fault with the guide. (it was in thread in the campaign section)


Which is annoying,

Aw, that's a shame. It would've been so awesome if he did.