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[Lady Jess]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Gilsa wrote...

I still am going to redo the mage game and get Carver to live though -- I adored him! =p

You simply have to like him and his ******-ish ways.
The endgame with him as a warden is, dare I say, Glorious /Cailan.

Hi Herr! I actually wanted to smack Carver around my first game. I played a mage and it was ME he resented for making  them run. Not his other Apostate sister, just Hawke. I now know to ask his opinion more often and he'll warm up. So maybe he survives my next playthrough. Of course he'll just get all mad again when he ends up with the wardens. I'm still annoyed with Bethany over that, man she would have DIED without the joining.

[Exile Isan]

I triggered the funniest conversation between Varric and Fenris last night:

Varric: What do you do in that big house all by yourself elf?
Fenris: I dance.
Varric: Really?
Fenris: Indeed I use those long halls to practice elaborately choreographed dance routines.

....I can't remember really the rest of that conversation because I was laughing too hard. Only that Varric congratulated him on telling a joke.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 17 mars 2011 - 08:51 .

[Thrazesul]

I'd love to see Danarius face as the boat shipped off. I think Fenris mentioned that but still, must have been a hilarious look.

And did Merideth grab your romance interest during the last battle? She snagged Fenris in the face and then stabbed him, taunting Hawke with how she held her loved one in her grasp. Not sure it's another "companion" thing or actual romance related. In that case that'd be some serious kicking to be done from Hawke!

Or Fenris. Due to the stupid slow motion bug, I had to play him during most of Act 3 end's. Not that I'm complaining. 8D

[UltiPup]

I think Fenris is the most sensible member of your companions, maybe second to Aveline. He knows when force is needed and when it is not. At least Fenris can admit some mages can do good. Anders just puts all templars into one pot.

[RosaAquafire]

Ryzaki wrote...
Oh? So pray tell why do the mages turn to bloodmagic. Because they have no option or because they're all power hungry? 

Answer that and we'll see how "right" Fenris is. 

AND HERE'S ONE NOW!

No, seriously, I don't want to have the magic debate. I care very little and think the debate is perfectly balanced on both sides. I'm not a mage supporter. I'm also not a Templar supporter. I just think that Fenris's arguments are supported in the game, and also that he's the character in the game most qualified to make them.

[Addai]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Here's a question bordering on plothole for all ya'll.

How is it that Fenris knows the Qun? I imagine he's memorized it... but he can't read?
What. Did Danarius read the Qun to him every night before bedtime or something?

Every medieval peasant in Europe would have known the Lord's Prayer and a few of the psalms even if they were illiterate.  They heard it spoken.  I would say that people who are intelligent but are never taught to read probably compensate by having good memory and listening.  He also has a lot of mental discipline, so it fits.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 mars 2011 - 08:52 .

[HolyJellyfish]

Addai67 wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Here's a question bordering on plothole for all ya'll.

How is it that Fenris knows the Qun? I imagine he's memorized it... but he can't read?
What. Did Danarius read the Qun to him every night before bedtime or something?

Every medieval peasant in Europe would have known the Lord's Prayer and a few of the psalms even if they were illiterate.  They heard it spoken.  I would say that people who are intelligent but are never taught to read probably compensate by having good memory and listening.

But the Qun isn't the Tevinter's major religion. Fenris seems to know the text by heart. His education surprises me, especially since he is a Slave who can't read.

[RosaAquafire]

After seeing the edit to your post, Ryzaki, I think we basically agree on the whole thing. I never said Fenris wasn't predjudiced and extreme in his views. I think the Circle is broken, I also think mages need to be monitored and accountable. I just think that if I had to pick an extreme option, between Fenris and Anders's opinions, Fenris's are more based on evidence and less on ideals.

[Ryzaki]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Oh? So pray tell why do the mages turn to bloodmagic. Because they have no option or because they're all power hungry? 

Answer that and we'll see how "right" Fenris is. 

AND HERE'S ONE NOW!

No, seriously, I don't want to have the magic debate. I care very little and think the debate is perfectly balanced on both sides. I'm not a mage supporter. I'm also not a Templar supporter. I just think that Fenris's arguments are supported in the game, and also that he's the character in the game most qualified to make them.

No one is most qualified. THey all have their bias. 

The whole backbone of Fen's arguement is that without abuses Bloodmages would run rampant. There's no way to prove that because the mages in Kirkwall are constantly abused and exploited and have little power. 

We have no way to know if they're all turning to bloodmagic because of that or because they're power obsessed.

Sure we have that creep from the serial killer quest but we also have Ser Alrik. So it doesn't really say for sure one way or the other. 

I'm not trying to make anyone pro-mage either. Frankly I think them all running around wihtout some kind of check in system idiotic. But putting them in a prison and letting them be abused and exploited until they burst is idiotic as well. 

RosaAquafire wrote...

After seeing the edit to your post, Ryzaki, I think we basically agree on the whole thing. I never said Fenris wasn't predjudiced and extreme in his views. I think the Circle is broken, I also think mages need to be monitored and accountable. I just think that if I had to pick an extreme option, between Fenris and Anders's opinions, Fenris's are more based on evidence and less on ideals.

Fenris evidence is how he was treated in a society where he was on the bottom. Life always sucks when your on the bottom of the foodchain.

His experiences =/= all mages no matter how much he says so. Just like Anders experiecences =/= all templars. No matter how much he says so. 

Placing people in prison for the crime of being born leads only to resentment. 

Whose to say that's not why Tevinter's practice bloodmagic? To make sure they're so powerful no one would dare imprison them again? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mars 2011 - 09:02 .

[graciegrace]

Fenris may have been an educated child before he lost his memory, he may not know how he knows the things he knows (boy that was a mouthful).

[Laurelinde]

ankuu wrote...

yukidama wrote...

dandybananas wrote...

I want Fenris' red tie wrapped around my Hawke's wrist too! Gasp, maybe Hawke wears the same thing and that's what's wrapped around Fenris' wrist  It makes sense for a male Hawke at least, but it's probably not. Oh well a girl can dream.

Male Hawke wears the same tight pants that Anders is wearing in that shot.
(Which, incidentally, is why I didn't mind the lack of nudity in regards to Anders' scene, it would be weird to see them with the same body since I played dude Hawke as well).

Theeey...both shop at Andraste's Secret?

I wanted to see Fenris lyrium brands! Uhhh! Hm...Someone made custom tattoos for the face already...we have Fenris naked...i am becoming weirder by the second ><

No, I want to see the tattoos too.  Aaaaaaall of them.  I have this idea that when Fenris is...enjoying Hawke's company, he glows ever-so-slightly, like s/he is holding the first star of the evening.  And I want my Hawke to tie that red sash across her chest, under her armour.

Good gods I am too old and cynical for this sort of thing.

P.S. Why does Varric wear more clothes when he's in his underwear?!  Madness!

[Lady Jess]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Here's a question bordering on plothole for all ya'll.

How is it that Fenris knows the Qun? I imagine he's memorized it... but he can't read?
What. Did Danarius read the Qun to him every night before bedtime or something?

Every medieval peasant in Europe would have known the Lord's Prayer and a few of the psalms even if they were illiterate.  They heard it spoken.  I would say that people who are intelligent but are never taught to read probably compensate by having good memory and listening.

But the Qun isn't the Tevinter's major religion. Fenris seems to know the text by heart. His education surprises me, especially since he is a Slave who can't read.

I'm going to guess the fog warriors taught him alot while he was stranded on saherron (sp I know). Also, it would have been a "my slave is better than yours" thing to give Fenris some education. he maintains the control by not allowing him to read. Fen said they are forbidden to read, not forbidden to learn.  He was also around during dinner/guest conversations I imagine he picked up alot just in discussions had around him while he served the wine.

[RosaAquafire]

Yeah, I completely agree, Ryzaki, I think we're seriously on the same page here. If you look into my post history, I bring up Ser Alrik quite often when arguing against Templars. I am NOT pro-Circle. I am also not pro-mage. I am pro-let's-get-a-new-system! I just haven't seen nearly as much defensiveness over any other character's opinions, except for Fenris's.

MY POV is that Fenris is 100% right in one single way -- power corrupts. The power that the templars hold over the mages, life and death, good and evil, that's surely corrupted a lot of them. Not all, there are a lot of good templars ... but a lot. And the supernatural powers that the mages hold over the world, that corrupts a lot of THEM. I do agree that most mages would turn to blood magic in a world where they weren't accountable, because of what Fenris himself says -- the ones who wouldn't would be eaten alive by the ones who did, and then the only ones left would be the ones who did.

I just think that the PC having the option to be a mage contributes to the whole defensiveness over Fenris's opinion. I mean, yeah, it's easy to say "well *I'M* a mage and *I* never consult with demons!" Well, of course you don't, you're not actually there, in Thedas, with the demons right beside your head, whispering, prodding, tempting, begging. You haven't actually felt the rush of power and felt the fabric of reality bend to your fingertips. You've never been in the Fade and felt what that was like.

Playing a mage in a Dragon Age game is really not the same experience as BEING a mage in Dragon Age. So it's easy to be defensive when Fenris says bad things about "you," when YOU have never actually confronted the things that mages go through on a daily basis.

All I mean to say is that since DA players can BE mages, it's easy to become protective of mages, because that's become your in game identidy. But it's easy for a character written by the player and supported by the game to be a total badass to be incorruptable. It doesn't really make sense to use Hawke as a position to take offense to Fenris's opinions from. If that makes sense.

I'm not talking to you, atm, Ryzaki, just voicing my viewpoint on the popular POV of "FENRIS NEEDS TO REALIZE THAT NOT ALL MAGES ARE balh blah blah." Yeah, he does, he's short-sided and predjudiced and it's a character flaw. It's also a character flaw you don't see attacked in the other characters nearly as loudly, and I think this is why.

[UltiPup]

graciegrace wrote...

Fenris may have been an educated child before he lost his memory, he may not know how he knows the things he knows (boy that was a mouthful).

Most likely not. It sounds like Fenris has been a slave his entire life. And thus, he would have had no formal education. Whatever that would be like for elves in Tevinter.

[Addai]

HolyJellyfish wrote...
He's not wrong in certain circumstances, but he's HIGHLY HIGHLY prejudiced.

If it were up to him and you didn't have a ton of bodyguards surrounding you, I don't think Fenris would think twice about disposing you after shaking your hand.

He's really just as bad as Anders when it comes to seeing the situation in extremes. Male LIs are kinda screwy.

Er... he never ever suggests that he would turn Hawke in if not for her companions.  Nor does he go around ratting on other mages you meet to the templars.

It's really Vengeance who's the extreme extremist, of course.  It's hard to blame Anders for it, even though generally he's cooperating.

[TeamLexana]

UltiPup wrote...

ZombieGeisha wrote...

i feel the same about anders, he needs to be a bit tougher. As I've said previously he reminds me of a hippy esque peron (nothing wrong with that) but thats not the sort of person I go for.

Not saying Fenris is a bad guy, but I always tend to go for evil or anti-hero characters. Need a bit of darkness, Anders just goes on too much about hurting Hawke.

Am I the only one who think Anders is a dick? He is constantly pestering Isabela to choose a side in the discussion. He berates Aveline for being in the guard, seeing her only in the templar's hands. He dogs my favorite females at every which point. With Fenris, he and Isabela are like best buds. He has great respect for Aveline. The only two people he ever attacks is Anders and Merrill. I never bring Merrill along with him ( even though she takes his words in effing stride like a pro ) so he only fumes at Anders. Which, at this point, he well deserves.

Nah, I agree. I think he's a dick too. Ander's is obvisouly unstable and I feel cheated that Hawke can't see that and kick him out of her party or kill him sooner.. my warden would have known.... that's why Ander's had to run away! lol, jk.

I just miss the light heartedness he had in Awakenings but even then he was against Templars but it was a good mix, unlike DA2. I think their introductions says it all, when you meet Anders in Awakening he's smiting some fools with fire from his fingertips and is all "uh... I didn't do it..." lol In DA2, he immediatly brings out the crazy and threatens to attack you and is susipicous as hell.

[Addai]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Here's a question bordering on plothole for all ya'll.

How is it that Fenris knows the Qun? I imagine he's memorized it... but he can't read?
What. Did Danarius read the Qun to him every night before bedtime or something?

Every medieval peasant in Europe would have known the Lord's Prayer and a few of the psalms even if they were illiterate.  They heard it spoken.  I would say that people who are intelligent but are never taught to read probably compensate by having good memory and listening.

But the Qun isn't the Tevinter's major religion. Fenris seems to know the text by heart. His education surprises me, especially since he is a Slave who can't read.

He grew up in Seheron and lived among the fog warriors, admiring them, and therefore maybe studying them and their ways.

It's one of the things that I like about his character, that he is as cultured and knowledgeable as he is even without formal education.  He could have had some actually- the Romans liked house slaves to have a bit of education- but since he grew up as a slave, I would guess it wasn't much.  Danarius isn't exactly the progressive sort.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 mars 2011 - 09:14 .

[Ryzaki]

RosaAquafire wrote...

[q
Yeah, I completely agree, Ryzaki, I think we're seriously on the same page here. If you look into my post history, I bring up Ser Alrik quite often when arguing against Templars. I am NOT pro-Circle. I am also not pro-mage. I am pro-let's-get-a-new-system! I just haven't seen nearly as much defensiveness over any other character's opinions, except for Fenris's.

MY POV is that Fenris is 100% right in one single way -- power corrupts. The power that the templars hold over the mages, life and death, good and evil, that's surely corrupted a lot of them. Not all, there are a lot of good templars ... but a lot. And the supernatural powers that the mages hold over the world, that corrupts a lot of THEM. I do agree that most mages would turn to blood magic in a world where they weren't accountable, because of what Fenris himself says -- the ones who wouldn't would be eaten alive by the ones who did, and then the only ones left would be the ones who did.

True power corrupts. But he seems to only hold Mages to this standard and not the templars themselves. That's what irritates some people.

And yeah I'm not pro-mage or pro-circle either. 

I'm more for a school of learning and letting people leave once they pass their harrowing with peroidic checkins especially for loss of family and hard times.  A support structure so mages don't need to feel tempted by demon's that won't make many of their desires come true without a heavy price. 

I just think that the PC having the option to be a mage contributes to the whole defensiveness over Fenris's opinion. I mean, yeah, it's easy to say "well *I'M* a mage and *I* never consult with demons!" Well, of course you don't, you're not actually there, in Thedas, with the demons right beside your head, whispering, prodding, tempting, begging. You haven't actually felt the rush of power and felt the fabric of reality bend to your fingertips. You've never been in the Fade and felt what that was like.

Yes because clearly Bethany, daddy Hawke, The Warden mages, every mage you meet in DAO all of them end up dealing with demons. Even Jowan a bloodmage (a stupid one at that) doesn't make deals with demons. 

Playing a mage in a Dragon Age game is really not the same experience as BEING a mage in Dragon Age. So it's easy to be defensive when Fenris says bad things about "you," when YOU have never actually confronted the things that mages go through on a daily basis.

You mean being looked down upon for being what I am? I have gone through that. That happens in RL you know.    

As for constant demon temptations. Uh...most mages aren't tempted unless they're in emotional distress and vulnerable. This happens alot in Kirkwall because ofthe constant abuses by the templars. 

It happened in the Circle in Fereldan once Uldred went on his "let's leave the circle!" campaign. In the Fade you'll notice they only turn to abominations when scared or nervous. Content mages who feel safe don't suddenly turn into abominations. 

Seriously name one time a mage who was perfectly safe decides to turn into an abomination for the lulz. And see if that's higher than the amount of bat**** templars you meet. 

All I mean to say is that since DA players can BE mages, it's easy to become protective of mages, because that's become your in game identidy. But it's easy for a character written by the player and supported by the game to be a total badass to be incorruptable. It doesn't really make sense to use Hawke as a position to take offense to Fenris's opinions from. If that makes sense.

I'm not talking to you, atm, Ryzaki, just voicing my viewpoint on the popular POV of "FENRIS NEEDS TO REALIZE THAT NOT ALL MAGES ARE balh blah blah." Yeah, he does, he's short-sided and predjudiced and it's a character flaw. It's also a character flaw you don't see attacked in the other characters nearly as loudly, and I think this is why.

Yeah true. But the whole corruption is only because you have reason to be corrupted. And alot of thatcomes from said subjecation and abuse. It's a circle. Literally.  

And yeah I'm sick of the whole "Mages suck and are all likely to become evil" viewpoint myself. 

Actually I see it attacked in Anders quite loudly.  He gets slammed alot for it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mars 2011 - 09:17 .

[RosaAquafire]

Meh, don't really want to have the argument. You can tell everyone you won.

This is how I can tell people take this argument too personally. I take a neutrel stance, and IT'S NOT NEUTREL ENOUGH!

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 17 mars 2011 - 09:19 .

[Dunizel]

UltiPup wrote...

graciegrace wrote...

Fenris may have been an educated child before he lost his memory, he may not know how he knows the things he knows (boy that was a mouthful).

Most likely not. It sounds like Fenris has been a slave his entire life. And thus, he would have had no formal education. Whatever that would be like for elves in Tevinter.

I'll just stick with the theory that he is a very intelligent curious individual, with an extraordinary memory (if Danarius doesn't wipe it >.<), and a fast mind.
Maybe he really just listened and remembered whatever he heard and saw while he was with Danarius (hence his knownledge on magic and Tevinter history), or while running as a fugitive. 
Still, he must be extraordinary to remember all those things, and even learn a language as the Qun.

[UltiPup]

Fenris has every right to be wary of mages. He has never said all mages can be corrupted, just the weak ones. He admits to Bethany to being a strong mage. He simply takes all mages with a grain of salt. If there is no one to monitor them, then you just have another Tevinter. He doesn't want them dead. He wants them in their own Circles, to be watched. He isn't wrong by that. Someone has to watch the mages. We've seen they do a terrible job of watching themselves. They need an outside party to do that. Templars, when not corrupted, are needed.

[mnomaha]

Hello all, quickly delurking to ask...Valentines Day what? Where's that? Please?

[Dr. Doctor]

I have returned. Prompt time.

Armband:

The Hanged Man

Isabela: (lays down cards) Well then, looks like I win this hand. (looks at Fenris) Come on now, take it off. (Fenris places his shirt on the table) Well now, you didn't have to go that far! Not that I'm complaining or anything.

Varric:That armband of yours might have been a better bet there elf.

Fenris: It remains with me.

Isabela: Its just an armband. You'll get it back.

Fenris: It. Remains. With. Me.

Isabela: Touchy today aren't we? What make you so attached to that little armband?

Fenris: It is of no importance.

Isabela: It's from Hawke isn't it? That is so cute, the two of you, going around like a knight and his lady. It sounds like something out of a fairytale, doesn't it Varric?

Varric: Rivani, I'd suggest you stop before you get your heart broken. Literally.

Modifié par Dr. Doctor, 17 mars 2011 - 09:24 .

[Ryzaki]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Meh, don't really want to have the argument. You can tell everyone you won.

This is how I can tell people take this argument too personally. I take a neutrel stance, and IT'S NOT NEUTREL ENOUGH!

Yes because clearly I wanted to win?

You don't think that's a bit I dunno...childish to say? I wasn't trying to "win" anything.

And I never said your stance wasn't neutral enough.. 

I mean...really? 


Edit: That said Fen has every right to mistrust mages. Doesn't mean he's views are anymore right or just than anyone else's. That's all I wanted to say. Somehow that means I was trying to win something apparently. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mars 2011 - 09:23 .

[RosaAquafire]

UltiPup wrote...

Fenris has every right to be wary of mages. He has never said all mages can be corrupted, just the weak ones. He admits to Bethany to being a strong mage. He simply takes all mages with a grain of salt. If there is no one to monitor them, then you just have another Tevinter. He doesn't want them dead. He wants them in their own Circles, to be watched. He isn't wrong by that. Someone has to watch the mages. We've seen they do a terrible job of watching themselves. They need an outside party to do that. Templars, when not corrupted, are needed.

I agree with all of this.

Though Templars aren't the answer, and neither are Circles -- as they are currently. You give the templars the power they have, and it turns them rotten sure as sugar. You put a mage in a cage and they get bitter, just as sure.

I'm personally into a sort of parole system, mages go to Circles, are taught to use their magic wisely, go through a harrowing. After that, they can choose to go out into the world, or stay in the Circle to train the next generation. If they go out, they're limited on border crossing and have to report annually (maybe biannually) to a templar "parole officer."

If corruption springs forth wildly with that system, then we'll reevaluate, I guess.