55380 réponses à ce sujet

[DemonSaya]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Here's a question bordering on plothole for all ya'll.

How is it that Fenris knows the Qun? I imagine he's memorized it... but he can't read?
What. Did Danarius read the Qun to him every night before bedtime or something?

It's called emersion.  After a certain amount of time among a language without your native tongue being spoken, you'll pick it up.  You can also learn by having someone who knows both teach you.  Reading has nothing to do with it.

[RosaAquafire]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes because clearly I wanted to win?

You don't think that's a bit I dunno...childish to say? I wasn't trying to "win" anything.

And I never said your stance wasn't neutral enough.. 

I mean...really? 

Possibly childish! All I meant is that I'm willing to bow my head and surrender when I realize we're arguing slightly different things and are just going to go in circles, and that you appear to be an incredibly frustrating person to argue with

[Ryzaki]

RosaAquafire wrote...
Possibly childish! All I meant is that I'm willing to bow my head and surrender when I realize we're arguing slightly different things and are just going to go in circles, and that you appear to be an incredibly frustrating person to argue with

Ah. Sorry then. 

I am a bit of a frustrating person supposedly. 

/shrugs

[Dr. Doctor]

DemonSaya wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Here's a question bordering on plothole for all ya'll.

How is it that Fenris knows the Qun? I imagine he's memorized it... but he can't read?
What. Did Danarius read the Qun to him every night before bedtime or something?

It's called emersion.  After a certain amount of time among a language without your native tongue being spoken, you'll pick it up.  You can also learn by having someone who knows both teach you.  Reading has nothing to do with it.

Well, Fenris did serve as Danarius' bodyguard. I can imagine him and his master going off to war against the Qunari and Fenris being captured, and exposed to the Qun while Danarius was trying to figure out a way to retrieve his investment.

[Laurelinde]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

I have returned. Prompt time.

Armband:

The Hanged Man

Isabela: (lays down cards) Well then, looks like I win this hand. (looks at Fenris) Come on now, take it off. (Fenris places his shirt on the table) Well now, you didn't have to go that far! Not that I'm complaining or anything.

Varric:That armband of yours might have been a better bet there elf.

Fenris: It remains with me.

Isabela: Its just an armband. You'll get it back.

Fenris: It. Remains. With. Me.

Isabela: Touchy today aren't we? What make you so attached to that little armband?

Fenris: It is of no importance.

Isabela: It's from Hawke isn't it? That is so cute, the two of you, going around like a knight and his lady. It sounds like something out of a fairytale, doesn't it Varric?

Varric: Rivani, I'd suggest you stop before you get your heart broken. Literally.

<3<3<3 Love this.

[RosaAquafire]

Ryzaki wrote...
Ah. Sorry then. 

I am a bit of a frustrating person supposedly. 

/shrugs

It's cool bro, I am too.

And re: winning ... oh, come on. Everybody argues to win. If you're not trying to convince someone or defend something, what's the point? I'll be the first to admit that winning is always forefront in my mind. It doesn't need to be childish

[maselphie]

Aww, is the debate over? I just popped my head in. I WANT TO WIN!

Just completed my Meredith playthrough, so I can see both sides.

Modifié par maselphie, 17 mars 2011 - 09:29 .

[Ryzaki]

RosaAquafire wrote...
It's cool bro, I am too.

And re: winning ... oh, come on. Everybody argues to win. If you're not trying to convince someone or defend something, what's the point? I'll be the first to admit that winning is always forefront in my mind. It doesn't need to be childish

Nah I don't argue to win. 

I argue because it's fun to have people at least acknowledge a new viewpoint. They don't have agree with it or be convinced. If it makes them pause and go. "Huh." I consider that a good thing. 

Only time I don't bother aruging is when it's futlle or borderline offensive. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mars 2011 - 09:30 .

[TeamLexana]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

I have returned. Prompt time.

Armband:

The Hanged Man

Isabela: (lays down cards) Well then, looks like I win this hand. (looks at Fenris) Come on now, take it off. (Fenris places his shirt on the table) Well now, you didn't have to go that far! Not that I'm complaining or anything.

Varric:That armband of yours might have been a better bet there elf.

Fenris: It remains with me.

Isabela: Its just an armband. You'll get it back.

Fenris: It. Remains. With. Me.

Isabela: Touchy today aren't we? What make you so attached to that little armband?

Fenris: It is of no importance.

Isabela: It's from Hawke isn't it? That is so cute, the two of you, going around like a knight and his lady. It sounds like something out of a fairytale, doesn't it Varric?

Varric: Rivani, I'd suggest you stop before you get your heart broken. Literally.

Aww, I like it. + Freindship points. lol

[DemonSaya]

O.o; WTF, people. Getting heavy in here, is it?
To quote Varric:
"Opinions are like testicles: you kick them hard enough, it doesn't matter how many you've got."

[Addai]

On the subject of mages, I was so happy to see Avernus' story carried forward!! I would like to see Fenris' reaction to him. We'd probably learn some new cuss words.

[Anny78]

Exile Isan wrote...

I triggered the funniest conversation between Varric and Fenris last night:

Varric: What do you do in that big house all by yourself elf?
Fenris: I dance.
Varric: Really?
Fenris: Indeed I use those long halls to practice elaborately choreographed dance routines.

....I can't remember really the rest of that conversation because I was laughing too hard. Only that Varric congratulated him on telling a joke.

Yay, that's a good one.

I like the banter between Fenris and Isabela.
F: So this relic you mentioned losing...
I: You have pretty eyes.
F: I... have pretty eyes.
I: You elves have such pretty eyes, even the men. It makes me want to pluck them out and wear them as a necklace.
F: I wouldn't suggest trying.
I: Oh, I would never try. Not without reason, of course.
F: Forget I said anything.
Next banter: she wants him!
F: You keep staring at me. Is it my eyes again?
I: You're very lanky, for an elf. I like lanky.
F: From what I gather, you like a lot of things.
I: Nonsense. But when I see something I like, I go after it.
F: I suggest keeping your distance.
I: Now you're just making it challenging.
The best: About mages?
F: So I hear you think mages should be free.
I: Everyone should be free, not just mages.
F: Not everyone's dangerous.
I: It's not about who's dangerous. It's about having choices made for you. Don't you wish you had the choice not to have lyrium stuck under your skin?
F: I do.
I: (Sighs) This is silly. I don't want to argue.
F: Do you want to guess what color my underclothes are again?
I: Oh, yes, that's much more fun.


Almost every party banter is pretty funny, but I enjoy the most when they talk about Hawke, especially that one between Fenris and Merrill about love is... awwww... so cute.

Modifié par Anny78, 17 mars 2011 - 09:46 .

[RosaAquafire]

Ryzaki wrote...
Nah I don't argue to win. 

I argue because it's fun to have people at least acknowledge a new viewpoint. They don't have agree with it or be convinced. If it makes them pause and go. "Huh." I consider that a good thing. 

Only time I don't bother aruging is when it's futlle or borderline offensive. 

And in our incredbily pointless argument about arguing, I'd argue that that "fun" feeling is the feeling of when you fight against an obstacle, and then overcome it in a way that gives a visible, rewarding result. You  know, winning. Semantics, I guess

The issue with the argument we were HAVING is that what you're trying to argue isn't actually what I'm trying to say.
I have my own (incredbily neutrel) opinion about mages vs. templars,  but that's not what I'm trying to say right now. What I'm trying to say  right now is that I think people take Fenris's point of view too personally because they project -- either their character, or real world biases -- onto  what he says. That's my whole point, not about the morality of mage-keeping, not about the dangers of blood magic, not about the fact that Fenris has an incredibly short-sighted worldview. Just that there is a level of very personal offense I see being taken by Fenris's POV that doesn't apply nearly as much to other companions'.

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 17 mars 2011 - 09:42 .

[Lady Jess]

Addai67 wrote...

On the subject of mages, I was so happy to see Avernus' story carried forward!! I would like to see Fenris' reaction to him. We'd probably learn some new cuss words.

Where was Avernus' story? All I got was a silly potion. 

[Ryzaki]

RosaAquafire wrote...
And in our incredbily pointless argument about arguing, I'd argue that that "fun" feeling is the feeling of when you fight against an obstacle, and then overcome it in a way that gives a visible, rewarding result. You  know, winning. Semantics, I guess

Ooh let's argue semantics! Jk

The issue with the argument we were HAVING is that what you're trying to argue isn't actually what I'm trying to say.
I have my own (incredbily neutrel) opinion about mages vs. templars,  but that's not what I'm trying to say right now. What I'm trying to say  right now is that I think people take Fenris's point of view too personally because they project -- either their character, or real world biases -- onto  what he says. That's my whole point, not about the morality of mage-keeping, not about the dangers of blood magic, not about the fact that Fenris has an incredibly short-sighted worldview. Just that there is a level of very personal offense I see being taken by Fenris's POV that doesn't apply nearly as much to other companions'.

Ah sorry. 
But frankly Fen's POV isn't judged to me any harshly than Anders.

Anders is the one who gets most of the crap lumped on him from what I've seen.  

And...Anders abuse and suffering of his friends isn't a personal offense?  The others I can see but the other's also don't seem to be as firmly one way or the other. Isabela just belives in personal freedom period, Aveline in order, Varric could careless, Merrill believes they should be free because she's a mage herself, Carver just wants his family safe and to makea name for himself, Bethany just wants to be free and left alone. She doesn't become really pro-mage until she has to live in the circle and witness many of the abuses there. 

I mean most people think he is justified in what he thinks .He's still a bit of a jerk about it. He still lets his past experiences chain him down. 

As does Anders. He and Fen are eeriely similar. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mars 2011 - 09:48 .

[RosaAquafire]

No, what I'm saying is that PLAYERS take Fenris's POV personally, not Fenris takes his POV personally in character.

I have yet to see Anders get crap for being pro-mage. Or for being anti-templar. I've seen him getting crap for bombing a civilian target with the intention of see thousands of innocent mages killed to start a holy war, but that's not really comparable to anything Fenris actually DOES.

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 17 mars 2011 - 09:49 .

[Addai]

Lady Jess wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

On the subject of mages, I was so happy to see Avernus' story carried forward!! I would like to see Fenris' reaction to him. We'd probably learn some new cuss words.

Where was Avernus' story? All I got was a silly potion. 

If you got the potion, you must have gotten the codex for it right?  He was corresponding with the First Warden on his research, and the First Warden had told him about the Architect.

P.S. Reading the note about research into the Architect also pinged my Fionadar.  We have to see Fiona again!  Pretty please Mr. Gaider!!!

Modifié par Addai67, 17 mars 2011 - 09:59 .

[Ryzaki]

RosaAquafire wrote...

No, what I'm saying is that PLAYERS take Fenris's POV personally, not Fenris takes his POV personally in character.

Roleplyaing. 

I take offense to alot of things *all* the characters do. That's not a bad thing. Just means the character's were very effective at making us react to their decisions and personalities. 

I have yet to see Anders get crap for being pro-mage. Or for being anti-templar. I've seen him getting crap for bombing a civilian target with the intention of see thousands of innocent mages killed to start a holy war, but that's not really comparable to anything Fenris actually DOES.

I've seen it. I've seen him being called an idiot, delusional, close-minded. 

True it isn't comparable to anything Fenris actually does. But I have seen him getting crap for his anti-chantry attitudes. For him thinking mages should be free when they're dangerous and should be locked away. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mars 2011 - 09:52 .

[RosaAquafire]

Ryzaki wrote...
I take offense to alot of things *all* the characters do. That's not a bad thing. Just means the character's were very effective at making us react to their decisions and personalities. 

Fair enough. I roleplay hardcore, but I separate my character from myself completely. So while my character didn't like Anders, I think he's the best written character in the game. And while my character thought all mages needed to be locked up and that magic was a horrible thing and WHY DID BETHANY GETS ALL DADDY'S ATTENTION??, I take a much more neutrel standpoint.

[Ryzaki]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I take offense to alot of things *all* the characters do. That's not a bad thing. Just means the character's were very effective at making us react to their decisions and personalities. 

Fair enough. I roleplay hardcore, but I separate my character from myself completely. So while my character didn't like Anders, I think he's the best written character in the game. And while my character thought all mages needed to be locked up and that magic was a horrible thing and WHY DID BETHANY GETS ALL DADDY'S ATTENTION??, I take a much more neutrel standpoint.

I do as well. But I still see Fen and Anders as being shortsighted. 

Mycharacters tend to think Fen's an ass and Anders crazy though. 

I love all the characters and think they're well written and my character's though...they are more neutral in their response in game. 

Well except douche Hawke. Who goes from a hardline Chantry sympathizer to a more neutral viewpoint because of his mom's death. 

He'll always wonder if Orsino wasn't so fearful of Meredith would he have exposed Quintis. 

Though I can't roleplaying disliking Beth or Carver. They're my little siblings. My Hawke was all /wrists fwhen they die. 

Hck a couple of my Hawkes probably want to jump off the nearest bridge at the end of DA2. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mars 2011 - 09:59 .

[dandybananas]

RosaAquafire wrote...

No, what I'm saying is that PLAYERS take Fenris's POV personally, not Fenris takes his POV personally in character.

I have yet to see Anders get crap for being pro-mage. Or for being anti-templar. I've seen him getting crap for bombing a civilian target with the intention of see thousands of innocent mages killed to start a holy war, but that's not really comparable to anything Fenris actually DOES.

This is absolutely correct. I was promage was friends with Anders than he went and did this. He lies and uses your trust to murder. He was utterly selfish. Hawke could've been found guilty of being an accomplice and executed or at the least have his reputation ruined.

[darkrose]

UltiPup wrote...
Fenris has every right to be wary of mages. He has never said all mages can be corrupted, just the weak ones. He admits to Bethany to being a strong mage. He simply takes all mages with a grain of salt. If there is no one to monitor them, then you just have another Tevinter. He doesn't want them dead. He wants them in their own Circles, to be watched. He isn't wrong by that. Someone has to watch the mages. We've seen they do a terrible job of watching themselves. They need an outside party to do that. Templars, when not corrupted, are needed.

It's the "when not corrupted" part that's the problem. Just as power can corrupt the mages, the same is true for the templars. Think about it: you have a bunch of fairly young guys (some women, obviously, but they certainly seem to be heavily male as an organization) who are addicted to a powerful drug and then given life and death power over other people. 

Look at Cullen. In Origins, my mages (both genders, with the mod) enjoy teasing him to get him to blush and run off. It's not hard to see him get pushed to a point where he strikes back. Greagoir probably wouldn't let him get away with it, but in Kirkwall, we see a templar who not only rapes mages, but has them made Tranquil first, and is still actively serving. Even Greagior just transfers Cullen when he realizes that he's unstable.

I took the +5 rivalry hit from Fenris when I let the girl go instead of sending her back to the Circle, but I really wish I could have had an actual conversation with him. It would have been a great opportunity to actually see how his attitude might (or might not) change, rather than just being told "Oh, mages suck but Hawke's cool."

Modifié par darkrose, 17 mars 2011 - 10:04 .

[ejoslin]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Here's a question bordering on plothole for all ya'll.

How is it that Fenris knows the Qun? I imagine he's memorized it... but he can't read?
What. Did Danarius read the Qun to him every night before bedtime or something?

Every medieval peasant in Europe would have known the Lord's Prayer and a few of the psalms even if they were illiterate.  They heard it spoken.  I would say that people who are intelligent but are never taught to read probably compensate by having good memory and listening.

But the Qun isn't the Tevinter's major religion. Fenris seems to know the text by heart. His education surprises me, especially since he is a Slave who can't read.

He lived in Seharan for quite awhile.  He lived among rebels there for months as well.

Edit: I see this has been answered already!  *grin* I shouldn't answer things until I am caught up!

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 mars 2011 - 10:04 .

[Dr. Doctor]

I actually thought that Fenris' logic was sound. People, when they feel threated will often take drastic measures. With Mages, these drastic measures tend to be even more dangerous. Its just something that he's observed.

Now, Fenris isn't immune to taking drastic measures or trying to justify his actions. He does do some things (killing Hadrianna after giving her his word, jumping down Hawke's throat after offering Orana a paid position at the Estate) that he justifies, but he never does say that he doesn't have the same faults.

The big thing I get from Fenris is that inside he has to resist wanting to lash out at other people who constantly excuse their unjust actions while innocents suffer because of them.

[darkrose]

RosaAquafire wrote...
I'm personally into a sort of parole system, mages go to Circles, are taught to use their magic wisely, go through a harrowing. After that, they can choose to go out into the world, or stay in the Circle to train the next generation. If they go out, they're limited on border crossing and have to report annually (maybe biannually) to a templar "parole officer."

If corruption springs forth wildly with that system, then we'll reevaluate, I guess.

That's pretty much how I envisioned mages in Ferelden if the "free the Circle" boon is chosen. Apprentices need to be semi-isolated while they learn to handle their power--but their families should be able to visit. Then they can go out, but with certain restrictions. Sadly, using Ferelden as a test case never happened.