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[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

WMRina wrote...

You know...I did wonder about that.  But I think it's been discussed here before that as much as he hated his life as a slave, he does have some trouble breaking the mentality.  Probably not healthy, but no one's arguing he doesn't have problems.

Then shouldn't he have some lingering slavish habits to at least help imply that? LIke, I don't know, not speaking until acknowledged. Body language and behaviors besides "tense and anxious". Something external that even he doesn't notice, maybe.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 24 mars 2011 - 04:05 .

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

LOL  Okay.  He was brainwashed- do you see him as brainwashed in the midst of the Hawke romance?

...where'd I say that?

Addai67 wrote...

I don't see this as "ignoring" any part of his character.  You get squick from the line, I don't.  Like I said, if anything I see it as evidence of the opposite of what you're claiming it to mean.

What do you think I'm claiming it to mean?  I don't get squick from the line either... which is another thing I didn't say.

I just think about the implications of the line "I am yours" coming from a character whose every other word describes his time in servitude before I melt into a pile of room temperature butter.

[Addai]

Pseudocognition wrote...

WMRina wrote...

You know...I did wonder about that.  But I think it's been discussed here before that as much as he hated his life as a slave, he does have some trouble breaking the mentality.  Probably not healthy, but no one's arguing he doesn't have problems.

Then shouldn't he have some lingering slavish habits to at least help imply that? LIke, I don't know, not speaking until acknowledged. Body language and behaviors besides "tense and anxious". Something external.

It really wasn't clear to me exactly what he was struggling with and still isn't. I think the 'stoicism' worked against him IMO.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but I see his hunch as physical evidence of his enslavement.  Also, "not speaking unless spoken to"- he keeps pretty much to himself.  I also suggested that one reason he stays in the mansion is that he's more or less tied to the past whether he wants to be or not.  Part of his development arc is breaking from that and learning to think about a future as a person rather than someone else's property or as a fugitive.

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I just think about the implications of the line "I am yours" coming from a character whose every other word describes his time in servitude before I melt into a pile of room temperature butter.

And as I said, to me it doesn't carry those connotations because it's an entirely different situation and the tone of voice is one of affection.  But like someone said, I also don't think it needs a lot of reading into.  It never occurred to me with Zevran, either.

Too bad we don't get a Tevinter equivalent of "si amora". 

[upsettingshorts]

It occurs to me for the same reasons I assume Isabela's innuendos are dirty. Because that's who they are, and how their minds work. Fenris - given his memory wipe - can only relate things to his time as a slave.  Zevran was more wordly, and talked about many things, expressed many feelings, and for the most part really enjoyed his work if not his station.  He is a different character than Fenris and I wouldn't feel the same way about Zevran saying that line.

I never denied his tone, situation, or even his affections are different. But that's not the point. He is expressing some level of satisfaction at being owned by Hawke. The differences - as far as that goes - are moot.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 mars 2011 - 04:18 .

[Badpie]

Yeah I'm sticking with the melting at that line. And I don't feel bad about it. And I don't feel like I should. My Hawke would say the same thing to him.

I also have to admit that whenever he speaks....whatever it is he's speaking that's not the common tongue I kind of get a bit dizzy....

"Fenris maybe you should talk to the Arishok more.... No. More. Keep talking buddy."

[ejoslin]

Badpie wrote...

Yeah I'm sticking with the melting at that line. And I don't feel bad about it. And I don't feel like I should. My Hawke would say the same thing to him.

I also have to admit that whenever he speaks....whatever it is he's speaking that's not the common tongue I kind of get a bit dizzy....

"Fenris maybe you should talk to the Arishok more.... No. More. Keep talking buddy."

You shouldn't feel bad, it's a melt worthy line.  And since the same author had three of his last four romance characters saying it that there probably is nothing deeper meant than "I love you" without actually saying those words.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 mars 2011 - 04:24 .

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I never denied his tone, situation, or even his affections are different. But that's not the point. He is expressing some level of satisfaction at being owned by Hawke. The differences - as far as that goes - are moot.

?!!  I don't see it as implying ownership at all, rather devotion.  So I guess that's why it never occurred to me.

[Anarya]

I like to interpret that like this: it's a common expression between lovers that for Fenris has unfortunate associations. For him to feel comfortable enough to use such an expression with Hawke speaks to his depth of feeling for Hawke. Perhaps he trusts Hawke enough not to read a slavery overtone into it.

Or maybe he's Thedas' biggest sub, who knows?

[Tasmen]

Addai67 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Said in bedroom voice, it doesn't exactly carry that connotation.

It carries that implication, because it's not as if it's a minor aspect of Fenris' character. 

...okay, to you maybe.  I know some have said they got that feeling from him wearing Hawke's crest.  But he is allowed to have a lover and to choose to be with that person, and to express that feeling of attachment.  The very fact that he says it of his own accord gives me the opposite impression.  Do you s'pose he ever lovingly said "I am yours" to Danarius?

See, I'm of the same mind as you.  Him saying that does not have the implication of slavery to me at all.  It is more an expression of his acceptance of his freedom and acceptance of it.  Even running away from Denarius in an attempt to keep his freedom, Fenris still seemed to be mired down by a slave's mentality.  It rules his decisions.  His world still revolves around his master.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Addai67 wrote...
I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but I see his hunch as physical evidence of his enslavement.  Also, "not speaking unless spoken to"- he keeps pretty much to himself.  I also suggested that one reason he stays in the mansion is that he's more or less tied to the past whether he wants to be or not.  Part of his development arc is breaking from that and learning to think about a future as a person rather than someone else's property or as a fugitive.

The hunch looked to me more like anxiousness, like he wanted to either go home or go kill more mooks. Not... brokenness.

And if that arc is supposed to be what makes you hate magisters and hate/fear what magic can do, I dunno. Needs to be moar broken. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing but if I haven't seen it yet then I don't know whether I will.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 24 mars 2011 - 04:31 .

[upsettingshorts]

Tasmen wrote...

See, I'm of the same mind as you.  Him saying that does not have the implication of slavery to me at all.  It is more an expression of his acceptance of his freedom and acceptance of it.  Even running away from Denarius in an attempt to keep his freedom, Fenris still seemed to be mired down by a slave's mentality.  It rules his decisions.  His world still revolves around his master.

This is what I've been saying.  More or less.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 mars 2011 - 04:26 .

[Addai]

Badpie wrote...
"Fenris maybe you should talk to the Arishok more.... No. More. Keep talking buddy."

LOL I said that somewhere back.  Pretend you're studying the Qun. 

[Badpie]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tasmen wrote...

See, I'm of the same mind as you.  Him saying that does not have the implication of slavery to me at all.  It is more an expression of his acceptance of his freedom and acceptance of it.  Even running away from Denarius in an attempt to keep his freedom, Fenris still seemed to be mired down by a slave's mentality.  It rules his decisions.  His world still revolves around his master.

This is what I've been saying.  More or less.

Except Hawke is not his master.  He has broken the chains of this former life by this point.   If he hadn't he wouldn't have been able to be with her, hence his three year absence from her romantically.  I have never gotten the slightest impression that Fenris feels that Hawke "owns" him or that she feels like she owns him.  The very idea goes completely against all of his character development.

As for his hunched posture.  I always saw that as always being tense and ready for unpleasantness.  As Danarius' body guard he would have had to be on alert at all times.  It's probably just physical habit at this point.  I never saw it as a submissive posture or even being "broken."  Just...alert.  Always expecting the worst maybe.

[upsettingshorts]

Badpie wrote...

Except Hawke is not his master.

Didn't say that he/she was.  When I say on some level there is a degree of implied ownership, that doesn't mean master/slave.  It refers to his mindset and sense of relative self worth as well as through what language and thought he interprets his relationships with others.  Such as, "I am yours."

Excepting of course the time when Fenris answers in the affirmative when Danarius identifies Hawke as his new master.  I intrepret that as Fenris simply not wanting to get into a debate with Danarius about the nuances of his relationship.  But that's just my view.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 mars 2011 - 04:36 .

[WMRina]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Badpie wrote...

  I don't think it warrants reading too much into to really.

This thread - and others - read into things all the time.  It's only the potentially unpleasant or complicated things that there's ever even any debate about whether or not reading into it is appropriate.  

Considering he's a fictional character and DG could have had him say any number of things there means to me that it was chosen for a reason.  The Amell crest, too.

Then I guess the debate is about his reason for saying it.  I think the crest is just a matter of saying "You've helped me when you didn't really need to, you've stood up for me so I'm going to stand up for you."

And the "I am yours" was indeed chosen on purpose, and I'm gussing not just as a generic line to his lover ("Hey baby, wanna get drunk later?")  Are you implying that he thinks Hawke owns him? (EDIT: I read your post, so okay).  Considering the confrontation with his sister, loyalty is something Fenris considers extremely important.  People who earn his loyalty (friend/romance/rival) have his trust.  Thus him saying to a romanced Hawke "I am yours" shows how very deep that trust goes, considering what he's been through.

Modifié par WMRina, 24 mars 2011 - 04:37 .

[Addai]

Pseudocognition wrote...
The hunch looked to me more like anxiousness, like he wanted to either go home or go kill more mooks. Not... brokenness.

I don't get any anxiety vibe from. *  He tells you when you go to hunt Danarius the first time that he's not afraid to die, and I pretty much take him at his word there.  I was guessing the hunch was from having a heavy collar placed on him.  He says Danarius chained him like Qunari mages are chained, to mock the Qunari custom.  Or maybe it's an unconscious reaction to the pain of his markings, sort of how people hunch over to protect their vitals.

BTW if you look closely at his markings, they appear to have red edges.    I am guessing what they did was cut his skin first and then pour the lyrium in.  It must feel like having permanent splinters.

*edit: Ok, that's not true.  His idle animations show him looking over his shoulder and that does look to me like the nervousness of one who's been hunted.

Modifié par Addai67, 24 mars 2011 - 04:36 .

[Badpie]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Badpie wrote...

Except Hawke is not his master.

Didn't say that he/she was.  When I say on some level there is a degree of implied ownership, that doesn't mean master/slave.  It refers to his mindset and sense of relative self worth.

By the way, I adore your signature and your name.  "And now for the parade of upsetting shorts."  MST

Now back on topic!  Um...  I really didn't have anything to add to this.  IGNORE MEEEEE!!!!!

Good point about the Lyrium markings lookign like they were poured in.    Whatever method they used was so horrific it made him forget everything.  That's just heartbreaking.

Modifié par Badpie, 24 mars 2011 - 04:38 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Badpie wrote...
Except Hawke is not his master.  He has broken the chains of this former life by this point.   If he hadn't he wouldn't have been able to be with her, hence his three year absence from her romantically.  I have never gotten the slightest impression that Fenris feels that Hawke "owns" him or that she feels like she owns him.  The very idea goes completely against all of his character development.

I'd be more disturbed into taking action against mages if he did on regard Hawke as his master in some ways.

Imagine if he had said said 'yes' when Danarius asked if Hawke was his new master. You'd have to rethink your entire relationship with him. Just like with Anders at the end.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 24 mars 2011 - 04:38 .

[Tasmen]

Badpie wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tasmen wrote...

See, I'm of the same mind as you.  Him saying that does not have the implication of slavery to me at all.  It is more an expression of his acceptance of his freedom and acceptance of it.  Even running away from Denarius in an attempt to keep his freedom, Fenris still seemed to be mired down by a slave's mentality.  It rules his decisions.  His world still revolves around his master.

This is what I've been saying.  More or less.

Except Hawke is not his master.  He has broken the chains of this former life by this point.   If he hadn't he wouldn't have been able to be with her, hence his three year absence from her romantically.  I have never gotten the slightest impression that Fenris feels that Hawke "owns" him or that she feels like she owns him.  The very idea goes completely against all of his character development.

As for his hunched posture.  I always saw that as always being tense and ready for unpleasantness.  As Danarius' body guard he would have had to be on alert at all times.  It's probably just physical habit at this point.  I never saw it as a submissive posture or even being "broken."  Just...alert.  Always expecting the worst maybe.

Yes, I'm not saying that Hawke is his master. At the point where he says things like 'I'm yours', he has broken through the chains that bound him.  He's recognized that he is no longer a slave and does not have to live that way.  I'm not at all saying that he believes Hawke owns him.

I was simply saying before 'Alone' and his breakthrough (if we want to call it that), he lives as if is still a slave.  The mere fact that he simplies gives up (much like he did with the Fog Warriors) if you betray him and give him to Denarius reinforces this belief for me.

But after that? No.  His giving himself to Hawke is not an ownership thing but something deeper, something he's finally able to admit to himself that he deserves.  To belong to someone does not necessarily mean ownership.

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Excepting of course the time when Fenris answers in the affirmative when Danarius identifies Hawke as his new master. 

When does he do that?

Modifié par Addai67, 24 mars 2011 - 04:37 .

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

When does he do that?

I've only been told that he does.  I believe that it is during the trap at the Hanged Man.  Regardless whether or not he does, it isn't part of my argument anyway.

[Tasmen]

Addai67 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Excepting of course the time when Fenris answers in the affirmative when Danarius identifies Hawke as his new master. 

When does he do that?

I was about to ask that same question.  I remember him telling Danarius to shut up, but I don't remember the new master comment.

[Badpie]

Addai67 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Excepting of course the time when Fenris answers in the affirmative when Danarius identifies Hawke as his new master. 

When does he do that?

Yeah I don't remember that at all.  Do tell. 

[Tealsie]

Danarius says "so this is your new master/mistress."

But Fenris never says that Hawke IS his new master/mistress

Modifié par Tealsie, 24 mars 2011 - 04:43 .