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[Sue]

Rheia, please do it.

[Tasmen]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Tealsie wrote...

Back on the topic of Fenris, there's another line of his I have to add to "favorites".
"You always know how to make me smile, Aveline." Just the way that it's said and everything...

That whole convo is one of my favorites. Fenris and Aveline are totes BFFs. It's a shame I never take them anywhere together since they're both warriors and Aveline has a habit of talking over him. :<

Hrm, I don't think I've gotten that particular banter yet.  Which act do you get it?  III?

[Tealsie]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Tealsie wrote...

Back on the topic of Fenris, there's another line of his I have to add to "favorites".
"You always know how to make me smile, Aveline." Just the way that it's said and everything...

That whole convo is one of my favorites. Fenris and Aveline are totes BFFs. It's a shame I never take them anywhere together since they're both warriors and Aveline has a habit of talking over him. :<

That conversation, and when she finds out that Donnic and Fenris play Diamondback at the mansion.  

That "why can't I kill Aveline" thread that sprang up awile ago made me so sad. How can anyone hate Aveline? She's everyones' big sis, dishing out tough love and protection as needed.

[tankgirly]

Tasmen wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Tealsie wrote...

Back on the topic of Fenris, there's another line of his I have to add to "favorites".
"You always know how to make me smile, Aveline." Just the way that it's said and everything...

That whole convo is one of my favorites. Fenris and Aveline are totes BFFs. It's a shame I never take them anywhere together since they're both warriors and Aveline has a habit of talking over him. :<

Hrm, I don't think I've gotten that particular banter yet.  Which act do you get it?  III?

Yep, in Act III:

• Aveline: Thank you for that tip, Fenris.
• Fenris: You caught them, then?
• Aveline: Yes—a whole nest of slave runners working out of the Undercity.
• Fenris: I imagine you imprisoned them?
• Aveline: Sadly, they never made it to prison.
• Fenris: You always know how to make me smile, Aveline.

[darkrose]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Helen0rz wrote...

At least with Fenris, he might be broody and angry, he tells you like it is. He's right all along too. Sigh.

This is why it bugs me when people say Fenris is hypocritical. Fenris is the most brutally honest person in the bunch. It's one of the traits I most admire about him.

To some extent, I think Fenris is a bit of a hypocrite. You hate mages and magic? So, I don't need to heal you, or have Anders do so, right? Then there's the whole, "mages are evil; magic sucks--except you, Hawke, because I want to jump your bones" thing. He certainly has a valid point, but like Anders, he takes it to an extreme.

[darkrose]

Tasmen wrote...

darkrose wrote...
Carver is a massive tool, and with a male Hawke, I think it actually works quite well. I hated Carver at first, but as I went on, I felt like their rivalry was spot on. I made Carver a templar just to twist the knife, and I found that to be one of the few really satisfying parts of the ending.

I haven't made Carver a templar yet, but I will the next time I play a mage.  I have made him a Warden and I liked that.  Though that probably had to do with me imagining him and Nate being busy in the Deep Roads after Nate went all 'batman'.

It was a tough call for me, because I love the idea of Warden Carver coming up against Warden-Commander Tabris. I can just see them sitting up drinking and Carver agreeing with Mira when she drunkenly rants about how pissed she is with Anders.

[Most Definitely Sane]

darkrose wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Helen0rz wrote...

At least with Fenris, he might be broody and angry, he tells you like it is. He's right all along too. Sigh.

This is why it bugs me when people say Fenris is hypocritical. Fenris is the most brutally honest person in the bunch. It's one of the traits I most admire about him.

To some extent, I think Fenris is a bit of a hypocrite. You hate mages and magic? So, I don't need to heal you, or have Anders do so, right? Then there's the whole, "mages are evil; magic sucks--except you, Hawke, because I want to jump your bones" thing. He certainly has a valid point, but like Anders, he takes it to an extreme.

When you meet him, he does say that he knows magic has its uses. He doesn't trust Merrill and Anders for some pretty good reasons.

[Tealsie]

darkrose wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Helen0rz wrote...

At least with Fenris, he might be broody and angry, he tells you like it is. He's right all along too. Sigh.

This is why it bugs me when people say Fenris is hypocritical. Fenris is the most brutally honest person in the bunch. It's one of the traits I most admire about him.

To some extent, I think Fenris is a bit of a hypocrite. You hate mages and magic? So, I don't need to heal you, or have Anders do so, right? Then there's the whole, "mages are evil; magic sucks--except you, Hawke, because I want to jump your bones" thing. He certainly has a valid point, but like Anders, he takes it to an extreme.

He never really said he didn't hate Hawke because he's attracted to him/her. He said at one or more points that Hawke is a "strong" mage(or Bethany, depending on your class). It's the weak mages that he hates; the ones that give in to temptation.
He does kinda swing back and forth on the whole "hate all mages and magic" thing. At certain points he admits that not all mages or magic is/are bad. But then he turns right back around and says "they all do this! This is always what it comes to!"

[Twofold Black]

Tealsie wrote...

darkrose wrote...

My mage Hawke was livid that Anders pulled the "You don't really care about the plight of mages" card on him. Made my decision about what to do with him in the end really easy.

The line that always gets me is "You can't care about me and despise what I stand for!"
When did I say I despise anything?!  All I did was ask what you plan to do. jerk...

It's infuriating, and it's probably also to some extent a quirk of the friendship/rivalry system (the writing has to assume that if Hawke disagrees with Anders on one point, he or she disagrees with him on all points, because there's only one opinion axis), but I find it surprisingly resonant. I have met people like that, who will ascribe all sorts of vile motives to anyone who disagrees with or questions them on one, sometimes quite innocuous, subject.

Oh, right, topic. Topic. How 'bout that Fenris?



Yeeeeaaaahhh.

Tealsie wrote...

He does kinda swing back and forth on the whole "hate all mages and magic" thing. At certain points he admits that not all mages or magic is/are bad. But then he turns right back around and says "they all do this! This is always what it comes to!"

He usually does that at highly emotional moments having to do with specific individuals who abused him. I'm not saying he's not accountable for things he says in the heat of the moment; however, e.g. "what has magic touched that it hasn't spoiled?" is not his reasoned opinion. When he's in full possession of himself, Fenris is surprisingly even-handed about mages, and even has a bizarrely chill exchange with Anders after the act two Anders quest if he's in the party during that conversation.

Modifié par Twofold Black, 07 avril 2011 - 01:06 .

[Helen0rz]

darkrose wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Helen0rz wrote...

At least with Fenris, he might be broody and angry, he tells you like it is. He's right all along too. Sigh.

This is why it bugs me when people say Fenris is hypocritical. Fenris is the most brutally honest person in the bunch. It's one of the traits I most admire about him.

To some extent, I think Fenris is a bit of a hypocrite. You hate mages and magic? So, I don't need to heal you, or have Anders do so, right? Then there's the whole, "mages are evil; magic sucks--except you, Hawke, because I want to jump your bones" thing. He certainly has a valid point, but like Anders, he takes it to an extreme.

I think Fenris' point is that magic is useful, very useful, but its users are the problems. Magic would be fine if human nature doesn't take over, which is why he was livid to see Merrill dabbing into blood magic, since he said something about dalish elves never does it.

Fenris's the polar opposite of each other. Fenris at least doens't lie to Hawke's face and said it's for her/his own good

[ThatDancingTurian]

darkrose wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Helen0rz wrote...

At least with Fenris, he might be broody and angry, he tells you like it is. He's right all along too. Sigh.

This is why it bugs me when people say Fenris is hypocritical. Fenris is the most brutally honest person in the bunch. It's one of the traits I most admire about him.

To some extent, I think Fenris is a bit of a hypocrite. You hate mages and magic? So, I don't need to heal you, or have Anders do so, right? Then there's the whole, "mages are evil; magic sucks--except you, Hawke, because I want to jump your bones" thing. He certainly has a valid point, but like Anders, he takes it to an extreme.

He hates mages who use magic irresponsibly. Hawke does not use magic irresponsibly. Romance or no, that earns Hawke massive respect points from Fenris. That's not hypocritical, because Fenris does not see the world in absolutes. He has an established view on mages and magic, but that doesn't mean he's going to prejudge every mage he meets just because they have magic. Experience has simply taught him to be wary.

As for healing... Game mechanics. We don't really know if Fenris would actually reject being magically healed.

That said, his problem with mages and their dangers don't seem to be with the average mage spell, but the potential they have to use those abilities or abilities granted them by demons to rule over others. He never specifically calls any mages out for casting fireballs or hexes or wards. His problem is the danger they present because of their connection with the Fade. He states that nearly all the magisters are blood mages, and that seems to be his big issue.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 07 avril 2011 - 01:00 .

[SurrealSadi]

tankgirly wrote...

Tasmen wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Tealsie wrote...

Back on the topic of Fenris, there's another line of his I have to add to "favorites".
"You always know how to make me smile, Aveline." Just the way that it's said and everything...

That whole convo is one of my favorites. Fenris and Aveline are totes BFFs. It's a shame I never take them anywhere together since they're both warriors and Aveline has a habit of talking over him. :<

Hrm, I don't think I've gotten that particular banter yet.  Which act do you get it?  III?

Yep, in Act III:

• Aveline: Thank you for that tip, Fenris.
• Fenris: You caught them, then?
• Aveline: Yes—a whole nest of slave runners working out of the Undercity.
• Fenris: I imagine you imprisoned them?
• Aveline: Sadly, they never made it to prison.
• Fenris: You always know how to make me smile, Aveline.

I love that banter

[Helen0rz]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

darkrose wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Helen0rz wrote...

At least with Fenris, he might be broody and angry, he tells you like it is. He's right all along too. Sigh.

This is why it bugs me when people say Fenris is hypocritical. Fenris is the most brutally honest person in the bunch. It's one of the traits I most admire about him.

To some extent, I think Fenris is a bit of a hypocrite. You hate mages and magic? So, I don't need to heal you, or have Anders do so, right? Then there's the whole, "mages are evil; magic sucks--except you, Hawke, because I want to jump your bones" thing. He certainly has a valid point, but like Anders, he takes it to an extreme.

He hates mages who use magic irresponsibly. Hawke does not use magic irresponsibly. Romance or no, that earns Hawke massive respect points from Fenris. That's not hypocritical, because Fenris does not see the world in absolutes. He has an established view on mages and magic, but that doesn't mean he's going to prejudge every mage he meets just because they have magic. Experience has simply taught him to be wary.

As for healing... Game mechanics. We don't really know if Fenris would actually reject being magically healed.

That said, his problem with mages and their dangers don't seem to be with the average mage spell, but the potential they have to use those abilities or abilities granted them by demons to rule over others. He never specifically calls any mages out for casting fireballs or hexes or wards. His problem is the danger they present because of their connection with the Fade. He states that nearly all the magisters are blood mages, and that seems to be his big issue.

I have this image in my head, where after battle Fenris is hurt. Anders come to heal him with his exasperated experession on his face. Fenris refused the healing. Hawke got mad and made Anders go back there to heal Fenris and made Fenris accept his help

or something. There's always health potion? LOL

[Sue]

I also enjoy the banter between Fenris and Aveline about Donnic. something about coming over playing cards and she never knew.

[Tasmen]

tankgirly wrote...
Yep, in Act III:
[*]

Thanks!!!!

[darkrose]

Tealsie wrote...

darkrose wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Helen0rz wrote...

At least with Fenris, he might be broody and angry, he tells you like it is. He's right all along too. Sigh.

This is why it bugs me when people say Fenris is hypocritical. Fenris is the most brutally honest person in the bunch. It's one of the traits I most admire about him.

To some extent, I think Fenris is a bit of a hypocrite. You hate mages and magic? So, I don't need to heal you, or have Anders do so, right? Then there's the whole, "mages are evil; magic sucks--except you, Hawke, because I want to jump your bones" thing. He certainly has a valid point, but like Anders, he takes it to an extreme.

He never really said he didn't hate Hawke because he's attracted to him/her. He said at one or more points that Hawke is a "strong" mage(or Bethany, depending on your class). It's the weak mages that he hates; the ones that give in to temptation.
He does kinda swing back and forth on the whole "hate all mages and magic" thing. At certain points he admits that not all mages or magic is/are bad. But then he turns right back around and says "they all do this! This is always what it comes to!"

He doesn't say "you're okay because I want to do you", but it's certainly implied. 

Romancing him as a mage hit a few of my buttons. "All [insert minority group here] are [lazy/shiftless/greedy/criminals], but I don't think of you as [member of minority group]. Or, "I hate something that's an intrinsic part of who you are, but I'm willing to pretend it doesn't exist. However, I will continue to rail against and berate people who share the same characteristic--including when we're in front of a woman who wants to see you lobotimized--and I reserve the right to be a jerk and throw your dead mother in your face in order to prove my point that all other people like you suck."

Now granted, it doesn't help that with the exception of mage!Hawke or Bethany, every single mage in Kirkwall is bat**** crazy and/or a blood mage. But by the end of the game, my mage!Hawke was seriously considering running off with Varric, because he was the only person who wasn't guilt-tripping him.

[ThatDancingTurian]

I love the convo about Fenris and Donnic playing cards.Hearing that for the first time estabished my fanon belief that Aveline and Donnic are Hawke and Fenris' Beta Couple.

[darkrose]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

darkrose wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Helen0rz wrote...

At least with Fenris, he might be broody and angry, he tells you like it is. He's right all along too. Sigh.

This is why it bugs me when people say Fenris is hypocritical. Fenris is the most brutally honest person in the bunch. It's one of the traits I most admire about him.

To some extent, I think Fenris is a bit of a hypocrite. You hate mages and magic? So, I don't need to heal you, or have Anders do so, right? Then there's the whole, "mages are evil; magic sucks--except you, Hawke, because I want to jump your bones" thing. He certainly has a valid point, but like Anders, he takes it to an extreme.

He hates mages who use magic irresponsibly. Hawke does not use magic irresponsibly.

Hawke can be a blood mage. And even if she's not, Hawke is still, as Cullen points out, someone who could destroy a city if she was having PMS. (Not that I know anyone who really wishes she could set people on fire with her brain after the day I've--she's--had. :innocent:) All mages are inherently dangerous, and if you're going to argue that as a reason to keep them effectively as prisoners, then it's a little inconsistent to claim that this one person you happen to love deserves to be the exception because she hasn't screwed up yet.

[ejoslin]

darkrose wrote...

He doesn't say "you're okay because I want to do you", but it's certainly implied. 

Romancing him as a mage hit a few of my buttons. "All [insert minority group here] are [lazy/shiftless/greedy/criminals], but I don't think of you as [member of minority group]. Or, "I hate something that's an intrinsic part of who you are, but I'm willing to pretend it doesn't exist. However, I will continue to rail against and berate people who share the same characteristic--including when we're in front of a woman who wants to see you lobotimized--and I reserve the right to be a jerk and throw your dead mother in your face in order to prove my point that all other people like you suck."

Now granted, it doesn't help that with the exception of mage!Hawke or Bethany, every single mage in Kirkwall is bat**** crazy and/or a blood mage. But by the end of the game, my mage!Hawke was seriously considering running off with Varric, because he was the only person who wasn't guilt-tripping him.

In a rivalmance, the dynamic is different.  He doesn't want to want Hawke -- he fights it every step of the way.  It definitely gives him saying, "What has magic touched that it doesn't spoil" a different meaning than in a friendmance.

He doesn't pretend that Hawke's magic doesn't exist -- he just loves Hawke despite it.

Fenris' point seems to be not that all mages are bad -- but the bad ones have so much power and you never know which mages can be trusted (and he's right about that).  He also admires Hawke's strength.  

I don't know, he didn't strike me as hypocritical.  I think he would rather do anything but love a mage!Hawke in a rival romance but there's just that pull and challenge.  He can't help it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 07 avril 2011 - 01:24 .

[Ladivixxen]

tankgirly wrote...

I will leave this one here

This just made my night 100xs better

[Tasmen]

ejoslin wrote...

Fenris' point seems to be not that all mages are bad -- but the bad ones have so much power and you never know which mages can be trusted (and he's right about that).  He also admires Hawke's strength. 

That's a point I think a lot of people forget about Fenris.  He doesn't hate someone because they are a mage imho.  I believe he hates what magic can make a person into, having seen some of the worst in Tevinter. 

[ThatDancingTurian]

darkrose wrote...

He doesn't say "you're okay because I want to do you", but it's certainly implied. 

Romancing him as a mage hit a few of my buttons. "All [insert minority group here] are [lazy/shiftless/greedy/criminals], but I don't think of you as [member of minority group]. Or, "I hate something that's an intrinsic part of who you are, but I'm willing to pretend it doesn't exist. However, I will continue to rail against and berate people who share the same characteristic--including when we're in front of a woman who wants to see you lobotimized--and I reserve the right to be a jerk and throw your dead mother in your face in order to prove my point that all other people like you suck."

Now granted, it doesn't help that with the exception of mage!Hawke or Bethany, every single mage in Kirkwall is bat**** crazy and/or a blood mage. But by the end of the game, my mage!Hawke was seriously considering running off with Varric, because he was the only person who wasn't guilt-tripping him.

How is it implied when he treats an unromanced mage!Hawke the same as a romanced one?

I don't think he was guilt-tripping anyone. Just because he cares for Hawke doesn't mean he's going to turn a blind eye to all of those irresponsible mages who Hawke doesn't even deserve to be lumped with. I also don't think it's wrong for him to consider Hawke an exception. Hawke is an exception, whether s/he likes it or not. Too few mages have managed to make a convincing argument that his views are wrong. So far he's been right about just about every one of them.

That's kind of what Hawke signed onto when Hawke decided to get involved with a guy who hates magic, TBH. My mage!Hawke understood this, respected his conviction and 'agreed to disagree'. I liked that he was willing to follow her on her pro-mage crusade even in spite of his reservations. He keeps her honest, makes her remember there are two sides to the argument so she doesn't become blind to the faults and dangers of mages like Anders was.

RE: Blood Mage. Nobody brings this up. It basically doesn't happen in canon because nobody talks about it. Ever. Carver even says Hawke isn't a blood mage if you've got the blood mage spec. It just doesn't affect conversation at all.

As for Hawke's responsibility... S/He has killed scores of demons and resisted countless offers. That alone proves Hawke capable of more strength and character than the majority of mages.

[darkrose]

Helen0rz wrote...

I have this image in my head, where after battle Fenris is hurt. Anders come to heal him with his exasperated experession on his face. Fenris refused the healing. Hawke got mad and made Anders go back there to heal Fenris and made Fenris accept his help

or something. There's always health potion? LOL

I swear, no matter what I do with tactics, Anders will not heal Fenris unless I take control and make him. It's like there's a secret "Ally < 25% Health (except Fenris)" flag in there somewhere.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Tasmen wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Fenris' point seems to be not that all mages are bad -- but the bad ones have so much power and you never know which mages can be trusted (and he's right about that).  He also admires Hawke's strength. 

That's a point I think a lot of people forget about Fenris.  He doesn't hate someone because they are a mage imho.  I believe he hates what magic can make a person into, having seen some of the worst in Tevinter. 

This. It seems like people who call him a hypocrite are just lumping him into the 'anti-mage' corner like it's that much of a black-and-white issue. It's really not.

[tankgirly]

Ladivixxen wrote...

tankgirly wrote...

I will leave this one here

This just made my night 100xs better

*bow* Thank you.