55378 réponses à ce sujet

[Aeryn-Sun]

Wow...this is going downhill fast, eh? Just me?

I'll just say that I think Fenris fears magic, but doesn't hate either magic or mages. Fear causes us to do and say and feel many things that maybe aren't a true reflection of who we are and what we believe.

And now I'm going to lurk again. With my popcorn.

Edit: Hmm...well, this one never gets old...<3

by: VelvetRue

Modifié par Aeryn-Sun, 07 avril 2011 - 02:47 .

[Dr. Doctor]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Tasmen wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Fenris' point seems to be not that all mages are bad -- but the bad ones have so much power and you never know which mages can be trusted (and he's right about that).  He also admires Hawke's strength. 

That's a point I think a lot of people forget about Fenris.  He doesn't hate someone because they are a mage imho.  I believe he hates what magic can make a person into, having seen some of the worst in Tevinter. 

This. It seems like people who call him a hypocrite are just lumping him into the 'anti-mage' corner like it's that much of a black-and-white issue. It's really not.

Fenris' point is that anyone who has power will seek out more or at least try to preserve what they have by any means necessary. With politicians and merchants this boils down to assassins and outright war. With mages everything goes straight to hell. Literally. Magic isn't the problem, the people who use it are.

[Tashash]

Can I interupt to ask when/how Fenris says "I will kill anyone who tries to use me against you" during his kidnapping in Best Served Cold? I can't seem to get it...

[ThatDancingTurian]

darkrose wrote...

Interesting that you mention X-Men. Because the first two movies weren't an incredibly heavy-handed analogy
for sexual orientation, just like the mage situation isn't in any way intended as an analogy for the same.

You're ignoring my point. If any such thematic analogy exists in DA2, it doesn't make up for the fact that unlike sexual orientation, many people have logical and justified reasons to fear and hate mages. It does not have an accurate equivalent in the real world and connecting the two turns mages into harmless victims of bigotry. It's not that simple.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 07 avril 2011 - 02:50 .

[darkrose]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

darkrose wrote...

Fenris is willing to give Hawke a pass. He is not willing to give that benefit of the doubt to any other mage in the game, ever. Even before he knows Merrill is a blood mage, he's horrible to her. Throughout the entire game, he insists that magic is bad, with no exceptions, and yet, he chooses to hang out with a mage. Despite normally being honorable, he disagrees when you refuse to blackmail Ser Thrask about his daughter. 

Fenris doesn't give Hawke a pass, Hawke has earned a pass. There's a difference. Fenris is not willing to treat mages without suspicion because he has every right to be suspicious. I don't know what you're talking about with Merrill, since you find out right away that she's a blood mage. What did he say to her that was 'horrible' before she cut open her hand and he called her foolish?



Ser Thrask is a hypocrite. Thrask doesn't practice what he preaches, and at the end gets killed for being weak-willed and wishy-washy. But regardless, what does that have to do with mages? Fenris didn't say, 'You deserve it for harboring a mage, you terrible, terrible man!'

I don't understand what's wrong with saying magic is problematic, either. Magic is problematic. It causes problems to people who use it. Fairly straightforward. And not hypocritical.

He has reason to be suspicious. My point is that just like Anders allows his experiences with templars to lead him to "all templars are corrupt and evil sadists", Fenris has done exactly the same thing. That, it seems to me, is part of the point: he and Anders are two sides of the same coin.

No. If you say, "Your daughter's dead; I'm not going to out her at this point" you gain rivalry. If you say, "Pay me or I'll rat you out," Fenris becomes friendlier.


When Merrill kills the skeletons before you get to the graveyard, and Hawke says "The Keeper didn't say you were a mage", Fenris interjects, "You can't give away something nobody wants."

Maybe its just me, but that's a pretty cruel thing to say to someone you've just met.


Magic is a tool. There are people who use it poorly. There are people who don't. Anders is nuts, but there are a lot of people in Kirkwall who are alive because of his magic. 

I'm not sure why it's a bad thing to acknowledge that the character has a big blind spot. That's what makes him interesting, at least to me. People aren't consistent, and if he were perfect, then he'd be dreadfully dull.

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

Aeryn-Sun wrote...

Wow...this is going downhill fast, eh? Just me?

I'll just say that I think Fenris fears magic, but doesn't hate either magic or mages. Fear causes us to do and say and feel many things that maybe aren't a true reflection of who we are and what we believe.

And now I'm going to lurk again. With my popcorn.

Agreed. I think he fears magic, and he has a damn good reason to. Fearing something will make you stand-offish to just flat out rude to anyone who agrees with it or does it (if you're not trying to rip their head off or running in terror), without question.

Hawke earns his trust (not counting blood mages-- I imagine if game mechanics allowed characters to identify if Hawke was a blood mage, Fenris would flat out leave). It's not just given. 

Now, I'm going back to my dark corner, seeing as I really shouldn't stick my nose in this because I have a hot-head and I will join in the bickering if I don't leave now.

*Joins Aeryn in lurk-dom with a plate of cookies*

Modifié par Madame Rose Crimsynn, 07 avril 2011 - 02:54 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

Tashash wrote...

Can I interupt to ask when/how Fenris says "I will kill anyone who tries to use me against you" during his kidnapping in Best Served Cold? I can't seem to get it...

I think he has to be the only one in your party and -not- the one kidnapped...? That's what I've heard. I'd really like a video of the different versions of this quest.

[Tashash]

Nooooo! Crimsy don't leave! I NEED HELP!

AND I MISS YOU!

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Tashash wrote...

Can I interupt to ask when/how Fenris says "I will kill anyone who tries to use me against you" during his kidnapping in Best Served Cold? I can't seem to get it...

I think he has to be the only one in your party and -not- the one kidnapped...? That's what I've heard. I'd really like a video of the different versions of this quest.

WHAT!? Really? So I killed Carver off for no reason? Bugger......

Modifié par Tashash, 07 avril 2011 - 02:57 .

[Tealsie]

Aeryn-Sun wrote...

Wow...this is going downhill fast, eh? Just me?

I'll just say that I think Fenris fears magic, but doesn't hate either magic or mages. Fear causes us to do and say and feel many things that maybe aren't a true reflection of who we are and what we believe.

And now I'm going to lurk again. With my popcorn.

Edit: Hmm...well, this one never gets old...<3

by: VelvetRue

 There are some Fenris pics that just never get old.
or...
I don't think any pics of himself get old.
*lurks with tea and chocolate*

[legbamel]

darkrose wrote...
[snip snip snippity snip]
No. If you say, "Your daughter's dead; I'm not going to out her at this point" you gain rivalry. If you say, "Pay me or I'll rat you out," Fenris becomes friendlier.
[bonus snip]

While he is a jerk to Merrill from the moment he knows she's a mage, this part I can understand.  If you're keeping the secret that a Templar had a daughter who was a blood mage then you're keeping the secret that he's sypathetic to "fallen" mages and thus fails at his job of stopping mages from using blood magic.  I just wish there were a third option (when I'm pro-Templar, that is) of saying, "I can't keep this a secret because you're not doing what you're here to do," rather than blackmailing Thrask.
[Edited for blargin' typo.]

Modifié par legbamel, 07 avril 2011 - 03:04 .

[darkrose]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

darkrose wrote...

Interesting that you mention X-Men. Because the first two movies weren't an incredibly heavy-handed analogy
for sexual orientation, just like the mage situation isn't in any way intended as an analogy for the same.

You're ignoring my point. If any such thematic analogy exists in DA2, it doesn't make up for the fact that unlike sexual orientation, many people have logical and justified reasons to fear and hate mages. It does not have an accurate equivalent in the real world and connecting the two turns mages into harmless victims of bigotry. It's not that simple.

I'm not ignoring your point at all. I'm saying that I don't agree with the idea that because the analogy isn't perfect, it doesn't exist. 

But at this point, it's past time for me to walk away from this discussion. 

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

Tashash wrote...

Nooooo! Crimsy don't leave! I NEED HELP!

AND I MISS YOU!

*Pokes head in* 

Help with what?

[Tashash]

when/how do I get Fenris to say "I will kill anyone who tries to use me against you" during Best Served Cold? I can't seem to get it...

[darkrose]

legbamel wrote...

darkrose wrote...
[snip snip snippity snip]
No. If you say, "Your daughter's dead; I'm not going to out her at this point" you gain rivalry. If you say, "Pay me or I'll rat you out," Fenris becomes friendlier.
[bonus snip]

While he is a jerk to Merrill from the moment he knows she's a mage, this part I can understand.  If you're keeping the secret that a Templar had a daughter who was a blood mage then you're keeping the secret that he's sypathetic to "fallen" mages and thus fails at his job of stopping mages from using blood magic.  I just with there were a third option (when I'm pro-Templar, that is) of saying, "I can't keep this a secret because you're not doing what you're here to do," rather than blackmailing Thrask.

Absolutely. I can totally get why he'd object to your keeping the secret, and if you could say, "I'm going to tell Cullen about this," that would make perfect sense. But when the only alternative is "cough up the cash or I'll rat you out, it's kind of a weird character moment, both for Fenris and a Hawke who's trying to be a good guy.

[Helen0rz]

 we, er...while this serious discussion is great and all...i for one thinks we need more pictures

by zeowynda


D'AWWWWWWWWWWWWW:wub:

[alexa_025]

Tashash wrote...

Can I interupt to ask when/how Fenris says "I will kill anyone who tries to use me against you" during his kidnapping in Best Served Cold? I can't seem to get it...

You can get it when you meet Keran in the warehouse. I'm not sure if this applies to the other convo options, but if Hawke threatens Keran - the third option on the right side of the wheel, he'll say it. You can still choose to murder knife the boy or not after that. I had him, Varric and Aveline with me at the time.

Modifié par alexa_025, 07 avril 2011 - 03:16 .

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

Tashash wrote...

when/how do I get Fenris to say "I will kill anyone who tries to use me against you" during Best Served Cold? I can't seem to get it...

I'm not sure...

If I remember correctly (and I've gotten him kidnapped multiple times), he doesn't say it if he's kidnapped. He says something along the lines that he was ashamed that he was weak enough to get kidnapped and have failed Hawke if he did.

Possibly if he's in the party (maybe only one)? My new PT mage needs to speed up (damn slow bug got her restarted for a third time the other day and I've actually been busy, so she's only close to the end of Act I right now). My weekend is clear *thankfully*, so I'll try to get her to that point at least then (Carver will be a GW, so he'll automatically get kidnapped and I'll knock the difficulty down and bring just Fenris when I get there, and see if I get it). 

=Edit=

NVM, Alexa got it. 

Modifié par Madame Rose Crimsynn, 07 avril 2011 - 03:10 .

[Tealsie]

Helen0rz wrote...

 we, er...while this serious discussion is great and all...i for one thinks we need more pictures

by zeowynda
[snip]

D'AWWWWWWWWWWWWW:wub:

Nooo
This cannot be! Cats are Anders' thing. Fenris should be holding a baby wolf!

Edit: on my most recent pt, Fenris got kidnapped, and right before I went to save him I gave him his gift in the mansion. He didn't seem all that upset about being "supposedly" kidnapped. Just gave me grief about the sword.

Modifié par Tealsie, 07 avril 2011 - 03:13 .

[Tashash]

Well damn....Thought I had to get him kidnapped.....But thanks, it's been driving me up the wall.

Awwww, Fenris and kitty! Maybe he and Anders could find some common ground there...As entertaining as their bickering can be it gets a bit old after a while.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Tealsie wrote...

Nooo
This cannot be! Cats are Anders' thing. Fenris should be holding a baby wolf!

Agreed, Fenris is so a dog person.

[Helen0rz]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Tealsie wrote...

Nooo
This cannot be! Cats are Anders' thing. Fenris should be holding a baby wolf!

Agreed, Fenris is so a dog person.

IT'S OKAY!!!

that just means Anders will be pissed! woohoo!!!

[Tashash]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Tealsie wrote...

Nooo
This cannot be! Cats are Anders' thing. Fenris should be holding a baby wolf!

Agreed, Fenris is so a dog person.

So why do I never find him in my house talking to my Mabari?  Everyone else does it! Merrill tells him stories, Varric teaches him to play Diamondback and Aveline give him mutton!

[Shacary]

I think Fenris' personality is totally consistent with a being abused for long time. The fear/suspicion of every mage well founded. I view it as being used to malicious magickers, he is constantly expecting that to happen... mb not today... but maybe tomorrow. He did not give my LadyHawke mage an easy time of it, she had to earn every point of respect/rivalry. [ friendshipmance was tough but fun] .
I haev an image of jsut how in depth that fear of malicious magic must be, out of the group of 4 he was the only one that actually CRINGED expecting a blast of who knows what... see what u think?
http://img685.images...ethataltar.jpg/
MHawke just blinks from the wind of her changing shape in his face, but no other reaction from the others.... except Fenris..

[Tealsie]

Tashash wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Tealsie wrote...

Nooo
This cannot be! Cats are Anders' thing. Fenris should be holding a baby wolf!

Agreed, Fenris is so a dog person.

So why do I never find him in my house talking to my Mabari?  Everyone else does it! Merrill tells him stories, Varric teaches him to play Diamondback and Aveline give him mutton!

Hopefully the patch will fix that. I want to see this conversation with dog that Fenris has.  saw a video of it, but it's not the same as actually playing it. *sigh*

[Aeryn-Sun]

Fenris is a cat person. He's antisocial, moody and has a habit of wandering off to brood by himself. And trying to picture him playing fetch makes me cringe.

Modifié par Aeryn-Sun, 07 avril 2011 - 03:19 .