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[Yellopranda]

aliastasia wrote...

@Yellopranda - hei på deg. Håper det er fint vårvær hos deg også :-)

As for broody antiheroes: We love what we would never want IRL. Gaider said that too, somewhere.

Veldig. Vinteren har endelig dødd. Hipp! Hipp!

Very true. I had a huge crush on Patricia Tannis in Borderlands even though she has so much crazy she could fill an entire asylum. I wouldn't get within a hundred yards of her irl out of a sense of self-preservation.

[Twofold Black]

Yellopranda wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

I think it DOES somewhat help it if you're female, though, in terms of maternal instinct. He's just so broken and spiky and vulnerable underneath, like a lost puppy whose only contact with others has been kicks and beatings and who'll snap if you try to stroke him. I'd put some thick gloves on for the start, but I'd be immensely tempted to bring him home with me and nurse him back to emotional healtth.

I kinda suspected that was at least some of his appeal. I must admit i come up a little short there, i don't want to fix anyone and i don't appreciate it when someone tries to do that to me. Take me as i come or not at all. Not saying there's nothing to fix 

Not that i don't appreciate the sentiment. To want to take care of someone is commendable.

Actually, one of the things I liked best about Fenris' subplot is that Hawke doesn't fix him. Hawke provides psychological support (and backup muscle) for Fenris' efforts to fix himself. Fenris isn't shy about wanting that support -- he's very forthright in general -- but the agency always rests with him; even the way the cutscenes are blocked makes him clearly the point man in his own story.

[Hekateras]

Yellopranda wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

I think it DOES somewhat help it if you're female, though, in terms of maternal instinct. He's just so broken and spiky and vulnerable underneath, like a lost puppy whose only contact with others has been kicks and beatings and who'll snap if you try to stroke him. I'd put some thick gloves on for the start, but I'd be immensely tempted to bring him home with me and nurse him back to emotional healtth.

I kinda suspected that was at least some of his appeal. I must admit i come up a little short there, i don't want to fix anyone and i don't appreciate it when someone tries to do that to me. Take me as i come or not at all. Not saying there's nothing to fix 

Not that i don't appreciate the sentiment. To want to take care of someone is commendable.

It's not the way you think, actually. To refer to a post several pages back, you never actually FIX him. You're just there for him, and he fixes himself on his own. There are several crucial moments in which your role is immensely important, but he's not *needy*. After he kills Danarius, he really starts to get over his issues and put his past behind him and become a functional person, even if you don't romance him or break up with him. His relationship with the others shows that, as well - by the end of the game, he gets along with pretty much everyone except Anders - meeting regularly with Varric, playing cards with Aveline's husband of all people, being friends with Sebastian... He figures things out on his own and any role you have in that is far less tiringly active than in most "fix instinct romances" you probably envision.

To me, he felt very different from Anders, with whom it's practically spelled out that your support is the only thing keeping him together.
EDIT: ...Ninja'd. XD  That's what I get for rambling so much.

Modifié par Hekateras, 09 avril 2011 - 02:43 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

Yellopranda wrote...

A very well written post. It suggests to me that i may have reacted badly to all the cliches (dark, brooding, troubled past, amnesiac, multiple personality disorder, kidding about that last one) and judged him a little too soon. That maybe he is more multi-faceted than i previously assumed. If it's true that his personality isn't extreme or that he's a one-note character then i may very well need to change my mind.

As several people mentioned intelligence is good. I can say confidently that it's my number one turn-on. It annoys me that so many girls seem to think guys don't want that.

Thanks.

I think the important thing to remember about cliches is that they can work against you or you can make them work for you. I think Gaider managed to pull off the latter in Fenris' case. The concept may be familiar, but the execution is what makes the character, in my opinion.

Then again, my favorite BioWare character is Garrus from Mass Effect and he could probably be summed up as 'renegade cop' meets 'batman', so I'm already well-versed in embracing the cliche.

[Twofold Black]

You made some good points (you know, in your rambling XD) that I didn't, though, Hekateras. At the end of the game Fenris has an actual life, with friends and the whole bit, and Hawke obviously catalyzed that, but didn't have to hold his hand through it. I actually, like, respect Fenris as a person for his ability to pick himself up and figure out how to function on some level other than his survival/revenge quest.

[aliastasia]

@YelloPranda - på med Jokke og sola skinner her :-)

Taking him home and fixing Fenris is one of the last things I'd want to do - but again, it shows how powerful it can be to have an in-game canvas to project onto.

I think one of the banters with Aveline post-Danarius actually sums him up a little - she asks him how it feels, and he responds something along the lines of "It feels" - and then they talk a little about that. He lightens up during the course of the game, whereas Anders goes the other way.

I think hte best moment for me was in the boat, just before the Gallows. I finished my second playthrough last night, and I was wondering about the cinematics of the scene - if it'd not been better if he'd hugged his LI on the boat or hands were held or anything, but no - that simple look across the boat was actually awesome in it's simplicity because it implied so much about the coming fight and hopes/fears/all that.

Damn. I am on a deadline. I feel a third playthrough coming on ;-)

/A

[Yellopranda]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Personally it makes less sense to me to hang around someone you dont like or wants to argue with you on purpose just for ****s and giggles. But then again I never play a hawke who does that - although Izzy and Merril apparently think that's whatyou do if you go rival with them.

Just wanna clear something up here. Rivalry doesn't work like that.

In my rival relationship with Isabela there is no doubt that we like each other. A lot. We just have what you might call a stormy relationship. And my character is not not arguing for ****s and giggles. A played a character who speaks his mind, even when his views are unpopular or not what people want to hear. Someone who is antagonistic and takes what he wants, by force if neccessary. It seems natural that he would appreciate those same qualities in others. Which Isabela has in abundance.

Arguing doesn't always happen just for the fun of it. Some people like others who challenge them. It gives you incentive to improve. In my mind it's this realization that Merrill comes to in the later stages of her rivalry romance. That you want a strong person. Someone who stands up for herself. You constantly challenge her and you want her to challenge you. Thus, together, you will grow stronger.

Rivalry and aggresive/direct dialogue isn't just about dislike and being an ass. It would be really boring if it was. The relationships are just as deep and your character too, maybe even deeper, though that's just personal opinion, as i find the diplomatic options to be to much of a social chameleon out to please everybody and the sarcastic ones too much like a shield.

[ejoslin]

Yellopranda wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Personally it makes less sense to me to hang around someone you dont like or wants to argue with you on purpose just for ****s and giggles. But then again I never play a hawke who does that - although Izzy and Merril apparently think that's whatyou do if you go rival with them.

Just wanna clear something up here. Rivalry doesn't work like that.

In my rival relationship with Isabela there is no doubt that we like each other. A lot. We just have what you might call a stormy relationship. And my character is not not arguing for ****s and giggles. A played a character who speaks his mind, even when his views are unpopular or not what people want to hear. Someone who is antagonistic and takes what he wants, by force if neccessary. It seems natural that he would appreciate those same qualities in others. Which Isabela has in abundance.

Arguing doesn't always happen just for the fun of it. Some people like others who challenge them. It gives you incentive to improve. In my mind it's this realization that Merrill comes to in the later stages of her rivalry romance. That you want a strong person. Someone who stands up for herself. You constantly challenge her and you want her to challenge you. Thus, together, you will grow stronger.

Rivalry and aggresive/direct dialogue isn't just about dislike and being an ass. It would be really boring if it was. The relationships are just as deep and your character too, maybe even deeper, though that's just personal opinion, as i find the diplomatic options to be to much of a social chameleon out to please everybody and the sarcastic ones too much like a shield.

The rival romances aren't supposed to be less than the friendship ones.  I do pick direct dialog with Fenris when rivalrying him.  He accepts what is said really well.

With Fenris is a rivalry relationship, he realizes that it's time to set aside the hate he feels.  I think Hawke in a rivalry has some nicer lines towards the end as well.

[Tasmen]

ejoslin wrote...
Fenris' romance requires that you not be involved with anyone else or else he does turn Hawke down (the slaves comment shoudn't make a difference).  He's a bit fickle that way -- if you're not serious, he's not getting involved.  

Not completely true.  My dick m!hawke slept with both Anders and Isabela before Fenris.  He never started a relationship with Isabela and he ended the one with Anders after the sex.  You can have sex, just not still be in the relationship.

[Tasmen]

Mel_Redux wrote...

And while we're on the topic of shamelessly posting our own artwork :

I know what he's looking at it and it makes me smile.

[Thiefy]

Yellopranda wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Personally it makes less sense to me to hang around someone you dont like or wants to argue with you on purpose just for ****s and giggles. But then again I never play a hawke who does that - although Izzy and Merril apparently think that's whatyou do if you go rival with them.

Just wanna clear something up here. Rivalry doesn't work like that.

In my rival relationship with Isabela there is no doubt that we like each other. A lot. We just have what you might call a stormy relationship. And my character is not not arguing for ****s and giggles. A played a character who speaks his mind, even when his views are unpopular or not what people want to hear. Someone who is antagonistic and takes what he wants, by force if neccessary. It seems natural that he would appreciate those same qualities in others. Which Isabela has in abundance.

Arguing doesn't always happen just for the fun of it. Some people like others who challenge them. It gives you incentive to improve. In my mind it's this realization that Merrill comes to in the later stages of her rivalry romance. That you want a strong person. Someone who stands up for herself. You constantly challenge her and you want her to challenge you. Thus, together, you will grow stronger.

Rivalry and aggresive/direct dialogue isn't just about dislike and being an ass. It would be really boring if it was. The relationships are just as deep and your character too, maybe even deeper, though that's just personal opinion, as i find the diplomatic options to be to much of a social chameleon out to please everybody and the sarcastic ones too much like a shield.

I dont think the dialouge boils down to diplomatic=please everyone/sarcasm= humor shield/aggressive= direct or honest. it's there to indicate the tone of voice, not the intent. you can disagree while taking the green and purple options, and agree while taking the red ones. All three of them can net you both frinedship and rivalry. i think you are over simplifying things when you say one choice is necessarily one way or the other.

Anyway I never was trying to argue the merit of rivalry, so I am not sure where that came from, nor how you play your character. From your specific post you said Isabella called you an ass and Merril got frustrated with you and called you out on just wanting to argue with her which is where I got viewpoint from. I've yet to romance either but thats how your post came off when I read it. From that specific standpoint it seemed rather silly to me for those two to hang around someone it SEEMED like they didn't like, much like you didn't understand while Fenris would hang around someone he seemed like he didn't like either.

[ejoslin]

Tasmen wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Fenris' romance requires that you not be involved with anyone else or else he does turn Hawke down (the slaves comment shoudn't make a difference).  He's a bit fickle that way -- if you're not serious, he's not getting involved.  

Not completely true.  My dick m!hawke slept with both Anders and Isabela before Fenris.  He never started a relationship with Isabela and he ended the one with Anders after the sex.  You can have sex, just not still be in the relationship.

How is that different from what I said?  If Hawke is involved with Anders or Isabela or Merrill you can't pursue the relationship with Fenris.  You don't seem to be saying anything different, so am I missing something?

Not trying to be snarky -- I'm just trying to figure out what was different between what we said!

Edit: I think I know, actually.  There are people who say you can never have any other romance aside from Fenris' in order to pursue him, but that's not what I said.

Not that it matters.  Moving along now ;D

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 avril 2011 - 03:17 .

[Tasmen]

ejoslin wrote...

Tasmen wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Fenris' romance requires that you not be involved with anyone else or else he does turn Hawke down (the slaves comment shoudn't make a difference).  He's a bit fickle that way -- if you're not serious, he's not getting involved.  

Not completely true.  My dick m!hawke slept with both Anders and Isabela before Fenris.  He never started a relationship with Isabela and he ended the one with Anders after the sex.  You can have sex, just not still be in the relationship.

How is that different from what I said?  If Hawke is involved with Anders or Isabela or Merrill you can't pursue the relationship with Fenris.  You don't seem to be saying anything different, so am I missing something?

Not trying to be snarky -- I'm just trying to figure out what was different between what we said!

Edit: I think I know, actually.  There are people who say you can never have any other romance aside from Fenris' in order to pursue him, but that's not what I said.

Not that it matters.  Moving along now ;D

Meh...

Semantics...

I've just seen it repeatedly said you can't do the romance with others and Fenris and I wanted to make sure it was known it was possible.  If that wasn't what you meant, then fine.  

[Hekateras]

aliastasia wrote...
I think hte best moment for me was in the boat, just before the Gallows. I finished my second playthrough last night, and I was wondering about the cinematics of the scene - if it'd not been better if he'd hugged his LI on the boat or hands were held or anything, but no - that simple look across the boat was actually awesome in it's simplicity because it implied so much about the coming fight and hopes/fears/all that.

I got that look too (and loved it), but from what I can tell it's only the party roster (as in, whom you put in which slot) that determines who's sitting down and giving you the look, as in many other scenes.

Did anyone get the whole "Meredith grabs-and-stabs-your-LI-while-taunting-you" thing in the final battle? It's apparently possible during the battle (though just a regular attack), and I saw it in a video... Damn. o.O

[Tasmen]

Hekateras wrote...
Did anyone get the whole "Meredith grabs-and-stabs-your-LI-while-taunting-you" thing in the final battle? It's apparently possible during the battle (though just a regular attack), and I saw it in a video... Damn. o.O

I had it happen with my rogue PT but not with the mage or warrior.

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

Hekateras wrote...

Did anyone get the whole "Meredith grabs-and-stabs-your-LI-while-taunting-you" thing in the final battle? It's apparently possible during the battle (though just a regular attack), and I saw it in a video... Damn. o.O

Yup.

About every PT I've done so far when I've romanced Fenris, I've gotten it.

[Thrazesul]

She didn't stab Anders in my playthrough. Instead she stabbed Carver, being all "I WILL CLEANSE YOU!"

Poor bro. D: But yes, I've seen her stab Fenris otherwise, the witch. D:

Modifié par Nerana, 09 avril 2011 - 03:30 .

[ejoslin]

Edit: * sniping over silliness.  Moving along now...

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 avril 2011 - 03:40 .

[aliastasia]

I need to weasel out of that deadline...

/A

[sushismygen]

[quote]Aris Ravenstar wrote...
*snip*

[/quote]Thanks.

I think the important thing to remember about cliches is that they can work against you or you can make them work for you. I think Gaider managed to pull off the latter in Fenris' case. The concept may be familiar, but the execution is what makes the character, in my opinion.

Then again, my favorite BioWare character is Garrus from Mass Effect and he could probably be summed up as 'renegade cop' meets 'batman', so I'm already well-versed in embracing the cliche.
[/quote]

THIS!

[Tanathir]

@Yellowpranda:  I appreciate you coming to this thread to ask why Fenris fans like him.  You've been respectful and curious.  Good on you!  :happy:

Yes, at first glance, Fenris looks like a complete cliche.  LOOKS LIKE.  At a mere first glance.  But when a player takes some time to watch his story arc and see how amazingly well Fenris is written, then well...I think a lot of people became fans that way.  I urge you to try looking at him again.  Look past the cliche and see he is a person.  He's more subtle than most of the other characters.

Fenris initially appealed to me because I am a female who is attracted to males, and he is good-looking.  Then I saw a YouTube and heard his voice.  I have a major kink for certain male voices.  Then I actually read about his character and watched more YouTube videos.  I've had some experience/training in writing, and **** is Fenris very well-written.  He follows that cardinal rule of characterization: he grows and changes.

Fenris is more than a broody mage-hating ex-slave with white emo hair and pretty eyes.  Those elements are not all he is.  I think it is a shame that players take that first impression and stick Fenris into a predetermined box.

[sushismygen]

Madame Rose Crimsynn wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

Did anyone get the whole "Meredith grabs-and-stabs-your-LI-while-taunting-you" thing in the final battle? It's apparently possible during the battle (though just a regular attack), and I saw it in a video... Damn. o.O

Yup.

About every PT I've done so far when I've romanced Fenris, I've gotten it.

I never get it! On any of my PT... Even reloaded the final battle quite few times. Screw you Meredith!

[Yellopranda]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Yellopranda wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Personally it makes less sense to me to hang around someone you dont like or wants to argue with you on purpose just for ****s and giggles. But then again I never play a hawke who does that - although Izzy and Merril apparently think that's whatyou do if you go rival with them.

Just wanna clear something up here. Rivalry doesn't work like that.

In my rival relationship with Isabela there is no doubt that we like each other. A lot. We just have what you might call a stormy relationship. And my character is not not arguing for ****s and giggles. A played a character who speaks his mind, even when his views are unpopular or not what people want to hear. Someone who is antagonistic and takes what he wants, by force if neccessary. It seems natural that he would appreciate those same qualities in others. Which Isabela has in abundance.

Arguing doesn't always happen just for the fun of it. Some people like others who challenge them. It gives you incentive to improve. In my mind it's this realization that Merrill comes to in the later stages of her rivalry romance. That you want a strong person. Someone who stands up for herself. You constantly challenge her and you want her to challenge you. Thus, together, you will grow stronger.

Rivalry and aggresive/direct dialogue isn't just about dislike and being an ass. It would be really boring if it was. The relationships are just as deep and your character too, maybe even deeper, though that's just personal opinion, as i find the diplomatic options to be to much of a social chameleon out to please everybody and the sarcastic ones too much like a shield.

I dont think the dialouge boils down to diplomatic=please everyone/sarcasm= humor shield/aggressive= direct or honest. it's there to indicate the tone of voice, not the intent. you can disagree while taking the green and purple options, and agree while taking the red ones. All three of them can net you both frinedship and rivalry. i think you are over simplifying things when you say one choice is necessarily one way or the other.

Anyway I never was trying to argue the merit of rivalry, so I am not sure where that came from, nor how you play your character. From your specific post you said Isabella called you an ass and Merril got frustrated with you and called you out on just wanting to argue with her which is where I got viewpoint from. I've yet to romance either but thats how your post came off when I read it. From that specific standpoint it seemed rather silly to me for those two to hang around someone it SEEMED like they didn't like, much like you didn't understand while Fenris would hang around someone he seemed like he didn't like either.

Yeah, i'm over-simplifying. I was trying to describe what i felt were general tendencies. I didn't say that one choice was one thing or the other though, only that they felt too much like that.

The point of my post, though, was trying to clear up a misunderstanding. Could be i gave the impression i was just being an **** to all my companions or that it could be read that way, and i wanted to be clear that this was not the case. I'm not interested in playing such a shallow character, and fortunately bioware gives me the opportunity to play something more, not the Saint/Gimme Money/Psycopath options many other crpgs give you.

Back to the topic; since bioware makes deeper characters than most others, maybe i should allow for the possibility that Fenris is deeper than i first thought he was. Generally from what people have said here i'm now tempted to give him a bigger part in my third playthrough. I already know he kicks ass, combat-wise, so no problem there.

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

sushismygen wrote...

Madame Rose Crimsynn wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

Did anyone get the whole "Meredith grabs-and-stabs-your-LI-while-taunting-you" thing in the final battle? It's apparently possible during the battle (though just a regular attack), and I saw it in a video... Damn. o.O

Yup.

About every PT I've done so far when I've romanced Fenris, I've gotten it.

I never get it! On any of my PT... Even reloaded the final battle quite few times. Screw you Meredith!

Pssh, don't worry. It's called I know about where in the battle it happens (sometime after the second time you fight the Gate Guardians and Meredith begins to do her monolouging), so I thow everyone else (but Fenris) on to fighting other stuff and let Fenris alone fight Meredith.

Sad, how I love to get my LI skewered for the sake of how cool it is.

[Tealsie]

Yellopranda wrote...
 I already know he kicks ass, combat-wise, so no problem there.

Yeah, no kidding.  *got butchered way too many times in the Fade by the elf*

This may have been posted already, but I didn't see it up yet and it's lovely.

http://purple-meow.d...llery/#/d3die4j

Apparently by the same artist that did the Fenris + strawberries in a bathtub pic.