Maybe it's strange, I find myself wishing they'd made Danarius into a more grounded, likable, perhaps even charismatic and attractive man - the type who would actually temp me into siding with him against someone my Hawke has known for years. But as he is, he has the cackling villain (Vaughn-esque) vibe that inspires instant hatred. Not that I want to turn Fen over to him...it'd just be interesting if was a little less black and white.
I'm not sure how they could have done that without significantly increasing his screentime. He's only actually around for a couple of minutes; everything else we know about him is filtered through the reports of the man he tortured, mind-wiped and kept as a pet. I think the writers recognized this and went the other route, which is making him unbelievably satisfying to kill.
...I can't think of him and Danarius even in the same room together without shuddering, though. O.O Ugh. That creepy, slimy, obsessive bastard who won't leave his "pet" well enough alone...
I don't see it as black and white. Black and whilte, cackling-villain style would be if he'd sacrificed a kid for blood as he came on-stage, or threatened to kill Varania if Fenris didn't come along, or revealed that he planted a bomb in the Alienage.
Instead, he's just... exactly as you imagine him from Fenris's stories. Self-assured, arrogant, thinking of a slave as property, thinking of himself as in the right to own that property.
What I wish is that they'd made him more intelligent, as befits a Tevinter magister. "Ambush" the elf in broad daylight in the inn where everybody knows your name and the spymaster of your party actually lives while he and his gang are still standing near the exit? Uh-huh, sure. The scene was very poingnant, but the actual confrontation and Danarius as an opponent felt rather anticlimactic to me, considering the importance of this in Fen's arc.
I was disappointed with that last quest in general especially after the Bitter Pill quest was so amazing. Everyone else had more drawn out quests and a generally good ending to their storyline. With Fenris it was all 'well I guess we're all here, and you're evil, so attack?' There's still so much about Fenris that I didn't get. What really happened in his past? Why and how did he get his markings? How bad was his relationship with Danarius?
I mean you built this guy up all game and then he just shows up at your door and challenges you? That's the best plan you could come up with after 7 years?
I always thought it might have been interesting if Fenris went to see his sister without you, Danarius took him, and you had the choice to go get him back or not.
I agree. If a bunch of lousy templars can kidnap Fenris, Danarius certainly can, with a full contingent of slavers and whatever magical muckery he could come up with (preferably something the lyrium markings - isn't it explicitly foreshadowed how mysterious they are?).Would've felt more urgent and tense, too. I mean, with Hawke there, did you really expect that fight with Danarius would end in anything other than victory?
Racing to track Danarius and find him before he does something horrible to Fen, on the other hand, would've been very dramatic, and the writers could've milked the chilling similarity to All That Remains for all it was worth... Another interesting option would've been to have to choose between rescuing Fen and doing something similarly urgent for the greater good, a-la Isabela's relic vs. Qunari unrest, only with actual consequences either way.
There's still so much about Fenris that I didn't get. What really happened in his past? Why and how did he get his markings?
You lean more about Fenris' history if you let his sister survive.
yoshibb wrote...
I mean you built this guy up all game and then he just shows up at your door and challenges you? That's the best plan you could come up with after 7 years?
This makes total sense in light of the way Fenris reacts if Hawke gives him up to Danarius. Danarius walks into the Hanged Man expecting Fenris to collapse back into the slave mentality and leave with him like a good boy, and if Hawke betrays him that's exactly what happens. Danarius can't account for the effects of Fenris knowing Hawke for seven years, but he understands baseline Fenris better than anyone.
Edit: Every time someone quotes the Fenpunzel .gif, I laugh AGAIN.
Modifié par Twofold Black, 09 avril 2011 - 10:29 .
I wonder if whoever made that could make another one... with one of the scenes where Rapunzel is dancing or skipping about. So we end up with Fenris frollicking.
I'd apologize for the potential repost, but that would require me to be sorry.
(Yes, you may have noticed from the fact that I'm all over the thread today that I have nothing better to do with myself. This is my one day off and I have a fanvid I'm vigorously avoiding working on.)
Modifié par Twofold Black, 09 avril 2011 - 10:48 .
Twofold Black wrote... This makes total sense in light of the way Fenris reacts if Hawke gives him up to Danarius. Danarius walks into the Hanged Man expecting Fenris to collapse back into the slave mentality and leave with him like a good boy, and if Hawke betrays him that's exactly what happens. Danarius can't account for the effects of Fenris knowing Hawke for seven years, but he understands baseline Fenris better than anyone.
I thought about that, but I dislike that explanation for several reasons. Firstly, slave rebellions in the Tevinter ARE a regular, albeit ineffective, thing, and Fenris HAS been running loose literally for years. For Danarius be THAT arrogant, to think there's no chance Fenris wouldn't just obey and come running back to him... I don't know, I don't think a magister survives for long with THAT sort of confidence in their calculations being correct.
The other possible reason is that he's clearly convinced that Hawke is the one Fenris considers a master now. That would mean he'd expect Fenris to still be in slave mentality and be loyal, but to Hawke, not Danarius. That means his plan hinges on Hawke's decision rather than Fenris's, and he doesn't know Hawke personally at all.
After years of chasing him and having dozens of his men and his apprentice cut down by him, all for the sake of capturing a slave apparently important enough to be worth the trouble... I really find it hard to believe that Danarius would leave so much to chance.
I agree. If a bunch of lousy templars can kidnap Fenris, Danarius certainly can, with a full contingent of slavers and whatever magical muckery he could come up with (preferably something the lyrium markings - isn't it explicitly foreshadowed how mysterious they are?).Would've felt more urgent and tense, too. I mean, with Hawke there, did you really expect that fight with Danarius would end in anything other than victory?
Racing to track Danarius and find him before he does something horrible to Fen, on the other hand, would've been very dramatic, and the writers could've milked the chilling similarity to All That Remains for all it was worth... Another interesting option would've been to have to choose between rescuing Fen and doing something similarly urgent for the greater good, a-la Isabela's relic vs. Qunari unrest, only with actual consequences either way.
Not to mention I was more angry at mages for what was done Fenris and tons of others like him more than what happened to Hawke's mother. I saw the thing with Leandra as an isolated incident by a serial killer who just happened to have magic. With Fenris, it was all the mages in Tevinter and what happens when mages rule. Slavery, blood magic, and demons everywhere. Pure brutality just because they can inflict it. That's what made me question wanting to go all out free the mages.
I really love all the potential for Hawke character development in the game. Depending on the exact choices in the quests and relationships with the companions, it's easy to imagine Hawke being swayed one way or the other by everything that happens, from Bethany to Leandra to Fenris to Merrill to Anders and everyone and their dog...
What happens in Tevinter really is horrible. We don't see it, but we DO see Kirkwall, and the sight of those massive despairing slave statues alone is a definite hint of how the slaves were kept, and above all the *mindset* in which they were kept... O___O
Maybe it's strange, I find myself wishing they'd made Danarius into a more grounded, likable, perhaps even charismatic and attractive man - the type who would actually temp me into siding with him against someone my Hawke has known for years. But as he is, he has the cackling villain (Vaughn-esque) vibe that inspires instant hatred. Not that I want to turn Fen over to him...it'd just be interesting if was a little less black and white.
I'm not sure how they could have done that without significantly increasing his screentime. He's only actually around for a couple of minutes; everything else we know about him is filtered through the reports of the man he tortured, mind-wiped and kept as a pet. I think the writers recognized this and went the other route, which is making him unbelievably satisfying to kill.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. You only see him through Fenris' eyes and then on his last gambit. I guess they could have had a diary or something lying around the mansion, with some Danarius backstory.
"Dear Diary, Killed two slaves today to power a ritual..."
I'm not sure there was a way to make Danarius understandable, unless you subscribe to the Tevinter moral code.
There's still so much about Fenris that I didn't get. What really happened in his past? Why and how did he get his markings?
You lean more about Fenris' history if you let his sister survive.
Not really. She says 'you wanted these markings and freed us afterwards.' Why did he want the markings? How did Danarius come up with the idea? Was the whole point just to make Fenris powerful or did it have something to do with his Fade abilities?
I don't know, maybe it's a good thing we don't know. It could mean that he could return in another game to explain all these missing pieces
Twofold Black wrote...
This makes total sense in light of the way Fenris reacts if Hawke gives him up to Danarius. Danarius walks into the Hanged Man expecting Fenris to collapse back into the slave mentality and leave with him like a good boy, and if Hawke betrays him that's exactly what happens. Danarius can't account for the effects of Fenris knowing Hawke for seven years, but he understands baseline Fenris better than anyone.
Edit: Every time someone quotes the Fenpunzel .gif, I laugh AGAIN.
But if he knew him that well, he should know him well enough to believe that he'd bring Hawke as reinforcements. He sent hunters after Fenris for years and Fenris refused to come back. He must've known something else was going on or he wouldn't have wasted all that time and money. Also, if he thought Fenris was so easily brought back to his side, why didn't he order him to kill Hawke like he did the Fog Warriors?
So the only conclusion I make is that he's just an arrogant bastard who thought he could kill Hawke on his own. And that's kind of lame.
Twofold Black wrote... This makes total sense in light of the way Fenris reacts if Hawke gives him up to Danarius. Danarius walks into the Hanged Man expecting Fenris to collapse back into the slave mentality and leave with him like a good boy, and if Hawke betrays him that's exactly what happens. Danarius can't account for the effects of Fenris knowing Hawke for seven years, but he understands baseline Fenris better than anyone.
I thought about that, but I dislike that explanation for several reasons. Firstly, slave rebellions in the Tevinter ARE a regular, albeit ineffective, thing, and Fenris HAS been running loose literally for years. For Danarius be THAT arrogant, to think there's no chance Fenris wouldn't just obey and come running back to him... I don't know, I don't think a magister survives for long with THAT sort of confidence in their calculations being correct.
The other possible reason is that he's clearly convinced that Hawke is the one Fenris considers a master now. That would mean he'd expect Fenris to still be in slave mentality and be loyal, but to Hawke, not Danarius. That means his plan hinges on Hawke's decision rather than Fenris's, and he doesn't know Hawke personally at all.
After years of chasing him and having dozens of his men and his apprentice cut down by him, all for the sake of capturing a slave apparently important enough to be worth the trouble... I really find it hard to believe that Danarius would leave so much to chance.
I think he simply underestimates Hawke at this point, actually. He does have his defenses up all around though, it is not like he came in unprepared. Just not prepared enough.
Why wouldn't he kill Hawke? It is just like another rival in his Tevinter mentality.
Racing to track Danarius and find him before he does something horrible to Fen, on the other hand, would've been very dramatic, and the writers could've milked the chilling similarity to All That Remains for all it was worth... Another interesting option would've been to have to choose between rescuing Fen and doing something similarly urgent for the greater good, a-la Isabela's relic vs. Qunari unrest, only with actual consequences either way.
Oh man, I love both of those ideas. Of course if the first one would've happened I probably would've had a heart attack... but the suspense would've made it ridiculously amazing. Especially if there was a chance that if you didn't take the quest soon enough and screwed around that something bad really could happen... like you finding him only to see that it's too late and his memory has been wiped again. A terrible thought, but anybody who really likes Fen would probably take the quest right away and not have to actually worry about that happening. Jeez... the writers really could've milked that one for all it was worth!
@Twofold Black - Nice picture! I've seen a lot of good stuff on deviantart lately, but haven't seen that one yet. If you ever make your fanvid you should post a link! I <3 video game fanvids. I just finished up one yesterday myself. It's a little cheesy, but hey... a fangirl's gotta do what a fangirl's gotta do.
I have this thing for mismatched couples, and have a bad habit of getting them together. In Mass Effect 2 I paired Shep and Garrus, in DA:O it was my elf mage and Alistair, and in DA2 I rivalmanced Fenris with my femHawke mage. Maybe I have a problem? lol
That's the thing. Whateve one assumes Danarius's plan was, it doesn't make sense. If he thought Fenris would give a fight then be brought too few men. If he thought he wouldn't then he brought too many. If he thought The Champion would refuse to part with her new "property", he DEFINITELY brought too few men. If he thought she'd give him up, that's a real longshot based on no previous knowledge. Either way, it seems poorly thought-through. And none of it explains the giant plot hole of how exactly they managed to ambush Fen without any of the inn's regulars (or their conspicuous absence), Varric's spies, Varric himself, the City Guard or Fenris's finely-tuned paranoia being clued in.
Addai67 wrote... Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. You only see him through Fenris' eyes and then on his last gambit. I guess they could have had a diary or something lying around the mansion, with some Danarius backstory.
"Dear Diary, Killed two slaves today to power a ritual..."
I'm not sure there was a way to make Danarius understandable, unless you subscribe to the Tevinter moral code.
One of Fen's banters with Sebastian has him mentioning Danarius casually killing a child for blood, basically for a party trick. That's a bit more concrete than the usual vague "He's horrible and evil and uses blood magic". I mean, yes, it's still through Fen's eyes, but Fen doesn't seem like he'd make something like that up...
steph01423 wrote... Oh man, I love both of those ideas. Of course if the first one would've happened I probably would've had a heart attack... but the suspense would've made it ridiculously amazing. Especially if there was a chance that if you didn't take the quest soon enough and screwed around that something bad really could happen... like you finding him only to see that it's too late and his memory has been wiped again. A terrible thought, but anybody who really likes Fen would probably take the quest right away and not have to actually worry about that happening. Jeez... the writers really could've milked that one for all it was worth!
Ugh. O.O I didn't think that far ahead, but YES, that would be horrible. Imagine finally finding Danarius, only to see Fenris as his bodyguard again - your sadistic choice would be between letting Danarius go, and letting Fenris live on as a slave, and attacking Danarius and having to face and possibly kill Fenris in combat. O_O
tigrina wrote...
DA2 is angsty enough as is..
IMO angst is only bad if it feels like it's getting in the way of logic, like the authors are just trying to shoehorn it in for the sake of more drama despite it not fitting the story.
The Alone quest, though? Everything we've learned till that point has established Danarius as a fearsome and cunning adversary, a shadow hanging over Fen this entire time. All it takes for a mage - particularly a bloodmage with the power to control your very body - to capture a non-mage is one moment of inattention. Recall that this is someone who wants to recapture Fen very, very badly.
Under those circumstances, I feel that it's illogical and shoehorned for things NOT to go horribly wrong at least at the start.
EDIT: Whoops. Double-post, apparently. O.O I forgot about that last one. My apologies.
How could he have known that he didn't bring enough men? I mean, how many do you need for killing 4 people anyway? Or 3 and getting your slave back.
Also: yes I can see that they could have given Danarius some decent bloodmage tricks as him being a real Tevinter magister. As a boss fight he was rather tame.
That's the thing. Whateve one assumes Danarius's plan was, it doesn't make sense. If he thought Fenris would give a fight then be brought too few men. If he thought he wouldn't then he brought too many. If he thought The Champion would refuse to part with her new "property", he DEFINITELY brought too few men. If he thought she'd give him up, that's a real longshot based on no previous knowledge. Either way, it seems poorly thought-through. And none of it explains the giant plot hole of how exactly they managed to ambush Fen without any of the inn's regulars (or their conspicuous absence), Varric's spies, Varric himself, or Fenris's finely-tuned paranoia being clued in.
I think we're entering Gameplay and Story Segregation territory. Any force Danarius brings to take on Hawke is going to be too small, because it's a video game, Hawke is the protagonist, and one way or another anyone who takes him or her on is going to get a faceful of murder. The demands of the medium doom Danarius to look underprepared. On the other hand, the force he brings doesn't seem to be any smaller than the one that potentially kidnaps and holds Fenris in "Best Served Cold", and it's led by an experienced magister instead of some green twentysomething mages who can only practice blood magic clandestinely.
You've got me on the subject of Varric. As for Fenris' finely-tuned paranoia, his initial reaction to Varania suggests to me that he's compromised by his emotions in that sequence.
steph01423 wrote...
@Twofold Black - Nice picture! I've seen a lot of good stuff on deviantart lately, but haven't seen that one yet. If you ever make your fanvid you should post a link! I <3 video game fanvids. I just finished up one yesterday myself. It's a little cheesy, but hey... a fangirl's gotta do what a fangirl's gotta do.
You do some extremely clever recontextualization of clips in this. Lovely!
I will be posting the vid I'm working on on the BSN, though probably not in this thread; I don't think there's going to be a hell of a lot of Fenris content. Fenris is Gideon's love interest, though, so I do have some hilarious blooper videos of e.g. Hawke making out with Fenris' disembodied head.
steph01423 wrote...
I have this thing for mismatched couples, and have a bad habit of getting them together. In Mass Effect 2 I paired Shep and Garrus, in DA:O it was my elf mage and Alistair, and in DA2 I rivalmanced Fenris with my femHawke mage. Maybe I have a problem? lol
God, I do this too. It's a sickness.
Modifié par Twofold Black, 09 avril 2011 - 11:47 .
Retour en haut
:wub:
lol
