55378 réponses à ce sujet

[SurrealSadi]

tigrina wrote...

How could he have known that he didn't bring enough men? I mean, how many do you need for killing 4 people anyway? Or 3 and getting your slave back.

Also: yes I can see that they could have given Danarius some decent bloodmage tricks as him being a real Tevinter magister. As a boss fight he was rather tame.

He underestimated Hawke, and his/her influence on Fenris. Fenris had had 7 years, give or take, of freedom, and support from Hawke to become free. By that point in time, Fenris knew he could be free, and just needed Hawke's extra support during that confrontation to cement it. Killing Danarius(and Varania, potentially) gave Fenris the full freedom he'd always wanted. And Hawke helped him attain it.

[Addai]

Hekateras wrote...

That's the thing. Whateve one assumes Danarius's plan was, it doesn't make sense. If he thought Fenris would give a fight then be brought too few men. If he thought he wouldn't then he brought too many. If he thought The Champion would refuse to part with her new "property", he DEFINITELY brought too few men. If he thought she'd give him up, that's a real longshot based on no previous knowledge. Either way, it seems poorly thought-through. And none of it explains the giant plot hole of how exactly they managed to ambush Fen without any of the inn's regulars (or their conspicuous absence), Varric's spies, Varric himself, the City Guard or Fenris's finely-tuned paranoia being clued in.

He should have known, but that's the nature of the game.  It's like Zevran says, "I don't know why people think they can kill people like you and the Warden."  Sarcastic Hawke replies, world-weary, "Believe me, it's a burden I live with on a daily basis."  Why do all the dumb bandits continue to attack the Champion?  If they didn't, you wouldn't get all that delicious XP and loot.  So... why ask why.  I suppose he could have arranged the meeting somewhere outside Kirkwall, but it had to look like Varania was coming on her own.  That's probably also why he couldn't field an army, even if he could afford more men.

[Tealsie]

...because it's a new page, and this deserves to be on pretty much every page.

[UrsulaCousland]

Madame Rose Crimsynn wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

I wouldn't be able to sit through it to see it.

It's terrible. Don't.

I know I'm not. Remember, what has been seen cannot be unseen. 

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

Twofold Black wrote...

I will be posting the vid I'm working on on the BSN, though probably not in this thread; I don't think there's going to be a hell of a lot of Fenris content. Fenris is Gideon's love interest, though, so I do have some hilarious blooper videos of e.g. Hawke making out with Fenris' disembodied head.

I read the bolded part oh so very wrong. 

[SurrealSadi]

*giggles* I haven't giggled this much in like...ever...

[Hekateras]

That video is lovely! ^^

Twofold Black wrote...
I think we're entering Gameplay and Story Segregation territory. Any force Danarius brings to take on Hawke is going to be too small, because it's a video game, Hawke is the protagonist, and one way or another anyone who takes him or her on is going to get a faceful of murder.

I don't think so.

1) Hawke doesn't have to automatically win just because she's the protagonist. Remember your pleasant stay in Fort Drakon in Origins? For that matter, remember the Qunari spellcaster at the end of Act II in DA2 who stuns and nearly kills your party if not for Meredith? Remember the bloodmage in the Blooming Rose who almost gets Hawke to cut her own throat? Hawke isn't invulnerable. As an unscrupulous, powerful mage, Danarius had a whole range of options to get Fenris to cooperate.

2) On the other hand, what you said is the exact reason I'm criticisng Danarius's gambit here, because it's what makes his whole approach to it wrong. Luring Fenris into a trap gives him every opportunity to prepare for the possibility of it being a trap, including calling on his ties to the Champion who freaking killed the Arishok, potentially in single combat. I doubt a magister of Tevinter would underestimate an enemy like that. By contrast, the fact that Fenris is a close friend of the Champion's living in Hightown seems to be common knowledge. Ambushing him with his sister as bait simply isn't necessary.

Tealsie wrote...
...because it's a new page, and this deserves to be on pretty much every page. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png

...depending
on where it's originally posted, you guys are probably stealing
bandwidth and will eventually make that gif inaccessible, right? XD

Modifié par Hekateras, 10 avril 2011 - 12:03 .

[Twofold Black]

Madame Rose Crimsynn wrote...

Twofold Black wrote...

I will be posting the vid I'm working on on the BSN, though probably not in this thread; I don't think there's going to be a hell of a lot of Fenris content. Fenris is Gideon's love interest, though, so I do have some hilarious blooper videos of e.g. Hawke making out with Fenris' disembodied head.

I read the bolded part oh so very wrong. 

Believe me, the creepiness of accidentally (I SWEAR TO GOD) naming my character after his love interest's voice actor has not escaped my notice.

Why is there no "facepalm" emoticon? This is a serious oversight. I'll have to go with 

[yoshibb]

Hekateras wrote...

IMO angst is only bad if it feels like it's getting in the way of logic, like the authors are just trying to shoehorn it in for the sake of more drama despite it not fitting the story.

This is how felt about DA2 most of the time. It felt angsty just because it's angsty. Like we're going to kill Hawke's family because teh dramaz. Fenris and Hawke don't talk for three years cause teh dramaz. But it wasn't dramatic or angsty, it just didn't make sense a lot of the time. It didn't feel like, 'oh this is the only logical conclusion,' it just felt like 'this moment creates drama'

However, the Bitter Pill quest was perfect. Fenris possibly going against what Hawke commands and killing Hadrianna, their argument afterwards, the mansion romance, Fenris leaving, that was all good angst. But after that it just didn't make sense. We haven't talked about it in three years? Danarius just decides to show up after 7 years? Why didn't he just do that in the first place? The sister's betrayal which I saw a mile away. Then none of my questions about Fenris past really get answered, just add more questions. I just didn't get anything out of the third act's romance at all. 

[Heidenreich]

Tealsie wrote...



...because it's a new page, and this deserves to be on pretty much every page.

OMG THIS IS PURE SODDING EPIC WIN. :devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::wub::wub::wub::wub:

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

Hekateras wrote...

1) Hawke doesn't have to automatically win just because she's the protagonist. Remember your pleasant stay in Fort Drakon in Origins? For that matter, remember the Qunari spellcaster at the end of Act II in DA2 who stuns and nearly kills your party if not for Meredith? Remember the bloodmage in the Blooming Rose who almost gets Hawke to cut her own throat?

I wish we had something like that in DA2... that was my favorite part of DA:O-- sending in your companions to save your ass. 

I shall always fondly remember Oghren and Sten as circus performers. *Salutes* 

I wonder what Fenris would've done in that sort of situation-- Hawke gets captured and its up to her party to bust her out.

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

Yup. I totally double-posted.

Twofold Black wrote...

Madame Rose Crimsynn wrote...

Twofold Black wrote...

I will be posting the vid I'm working on on the BSN, though probably not in this thread; I don't think there's going to be a hell of a lot of Fenris content. Fenris is Gideon's love interest, though, so I do have some hilarious blooper videos of e.g. Hawke making out with Fenris' disembodied head.

I read the bolded part oh so very wrong. 

Believe me, the creepiness of accidentally (I SWEAR TO GOD) naming my character after his love interest's voice actor has not escaped my notice.

Why is there no "facepalm" emoticon? This is a serious oversight. I'll have to go with 

Uh-huh. Sure. Totally accidental. 

Modifié par Madame Rose Crimsynn, 10 avril 2011 - 12:09 .

[Aeryn-Sun]

I think the three year gaps are cheap and lame. For me at least, it actually takes away from the drama of Hawke's life to basically say, "zomg all this amazing stuffs happened for like a month...then for three years, Hawke did absolutely nothing and no one and nothing changed in all that time." Maybe if there had been a suitable catchup talk with each important NPC after each act, or even one freaking line where you can be like "oh, hey Fenris, it's been a while, you've been so busy with your contracts these last few years" or SOMETHING. The way it was pieced together could have been handled so much better.

[Hekateras]

Yoshibb - I largely agree. Leandra, at least - that seemed like more of the whole "your hero is caught up in a maelstrom, it's a dangerous city with many crazy mages and sometimes you get unlucky". I agree that the post-Bitter Pill development of Fenris's romance felt rather pointless. Not because I don't understand where he's coming from, but because of how it's done, how very little actual content there was. The whole "Fenris doesn't want to talk about it" thing? They could've shown that on-screen. *sigh* Damn deadlines and time constraints...

AerynSun - you've said it. It felt like the gang got together for adventure meetups every three years and then did nothing at all and didn't see each other. I suppose the fact that it takes a long time helps make the change of political climate in the city more plausible and easier to swallow, but the timeskips still felt very... odd. It would've been better if all the different quests had been presented as taking place DURING those years.

Modifié par Hekateras, 10 avril 2011 - 12:13 .

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

Aeryn-Sun wrote...

I think the three year gaps are cheap and lame. For me at least, it actually takes away from the drama of Hawke's life to basically say, "zomg all this amazing stuffs happened for like a month...then for three years, Hawke did absolutely nothing and no one and nothing changed in all that time." Maybe if there had been a suitable catchup talk with each important NPC after each act, or even one freaking line where you can be like "oh, hey Fenris, it's been a while, you've been so busy with your contracts these last few years" or SOMETHING. The way it was pieced together could have been handled so much better.

I'm tempted to write a story that fills "The Missing Years" of DA2. It'd be with a Mage!Hawkette similar to the one I'm playing on my new PT.

Knowing me, I would not be able to resist totally damaging the canon to the point it'd take a lot to fix it.  And I'd probably end up never finishing it unless it was only in three or four parts, tops. Which 3-4 parts would not be enough. 

=Edit=

Fix'd something that was incorrect. 

Modifié par Madame Rose Crimsynn, 10 avril 2011 - 12:18 .

[Heidenreich]

Madame Rose Crimsynn wrote...

Aeryn-Sun wrote...

I think the three year gaps are cheap and lame. For me at least, it actually takes away from the drama of Hawke's life to basically say, "zomg all this amazing stuffs happened for like a month...then for three years, Hawke did absolutely nothing and no one and nothing changed in all that time." Maybe if there had been a suitable catchup talk with each important NPC after each act, or even one freaking line where you can be like "oh, hey Fenris, it's been a while, you've been so busy with your contracts these last few years" or SOMETHING. The way it was pieced together could have been handled so much better.

I'm tempted to write a story that fills "The Missing Years" of DA2. It'd be with a Mage!Hawkette similar to the one I'm playing on my new PT.

Knowing me, I would not be able to resist totally damaging the canon to the point it'd take a lot to fix it.  And I'd probably end up never finishing it unless it was only in three or four parts, tops. Which 3-4 parts would not be enough. 

=Edit=

Fix'd something that was incorrect. 

I've been doing s bit of that myself >.> It can't be helped. the writer in me screams for plot-hole-fillers.

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

Heidenreich wrote...

Madame Rose Crimsynn wrote...

Aeryn-Sun wrote...

I think the three year gaps are cheap and lame. For me at least, it actually takes away from the drama of Hawke's life to basically say, "zomg all this amazing stuffs happened for like a month...then for three years, Hawke did absolutely nothing and no one and nothing changed in all that time." Maybe if there had been a suitable catchup talk with each important NPC after each act, or even one freaking line where you can be like "oh, hey Fenris, it's been a while, you've been so busy with your contracts these last few years" or SOMETHING. The way it was pieced together could have been handled so much better.

I'm tempted to write a story that fills "The Missing Years" of DA2. It'd be with a Mage!Hawkette similar to the one I'm playing on my new PT.

Knowing me, I would not be able to resist totally damaging the canon to the point it'd take a lot to fix it.  And I'd probably end up never finishing it unless it was only in three or four parts, tops. Which 3-4 parts would not be enough. 

=Edit=

Fix'd something that was incorrect. 

I've been doing s bit of that myself >.> It can't be helped. the writer in me screams for plot-hole-fillers.

Yup.

The only time-skip that I got the implication that the companions actually had been doing crap with one another and Hawke was actually the one from Act II --> Act III. When you go to get "Alone", it seems to imply that Aveline and (possibly) Hawke (something s/he says, again under an Investigate option I believe-- need to make the new PT go faster... Perhaps bump down the difficulty so I don't have to deal quite so long with fights) helped Fenris track down Varania. 

[tigrina]

As sarcastic/charming Hawke, you can find invitations to noble parties iirc. There is more of that kind of stuff around.

[Victia]

Yes 3 year time gaps are silly, so in my little brain its play a year skip a year and when anyone says differently I stick my fingers in my ears and go 'la la la la can't hear you la la la' :-) I just think 1 year gaps make more sense!

I just hope they bring out some time skip dlc

[steph01423]

@Twofold Black & Hekateras - thanks! glad you liked the video.  I thought Fen fans would enjoy a little romance tribute. It's definitely become one of my favorite video game romances... other than the huge time gap, I really loved the scripting, the build-up, and the chemistry. Speaking of which...

@Aeryn-Sun & Hekateras - I'm with you on the time gaps. You've both pretty much summed up my thoughts exactly. Hit the mark dead on, actually. It felt kind of strange to have all these adventures and then just lie dormant for three years and have Hawke just... I don't know, knitting booties in the mansion for Sandal or whatever until more baddies decided to pop up in town. I would've liked to actually see the "Fenris not wanting to talk about it" scene, too. I guess I'll just have to use my imagination for that one.

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

Victia wrote...

Yes 3 year time gaps are silly, so in my little brain its play a year skip a year and when anyone says differently I stick my fingers in my ears and go 'la la la la can't hear you la la la' :-) I just think 1 year gaps make more sense!

I just hope they bring out some time skip dlc

I rearrange quests in my head. And I imagine my Hawkettes are really short (5'0'' -- 5'2 3/4'', the former being normal and the latter being on really rare occasions). And that they're ghostly white. 

Simply because the first one makes sense, the second is because I can, and the third because that's the only way I'll survive playing on the PS3 (especially after making the mistake of going over to the DA Nexus and finding a mod that gives you the option of having amazingly pasty white skin). I'm such a sad, sad little person.

[tigrina]

You could just be teaching him to read for those 3 years

[Twofold Black]

Hekateras wrote...

Twofold Black wrote...
I think we're entering Gameplay and Story Segregation territory. Any force Danarius brings to take on Hawke is going to be too small, because it's a video game, Hawke is the protagonist, and one way or another anyone who takes him or her on is going to get a faceful of murder.

I don't think so.

1) Hawke doesn't have to automatically win just because she's the protagonist. Remember your pleasant stay in Fort Drakon in Origins? For that matter, remember the Qunari spellcaster at the end of Act II in DA2 who stuns and nearly kills your party if not for Meredith? Remember the bloodmage in the Blooming Rose who almost gets Hawke to cut her own throat? Hawke isn't invulnerable. As an unscrupulous, powerful mage, Danarius had a whole range of options to get Fenris to cooperate.

You misunderstand me. I don't mean that Hawke will automatically come out on top in any story situation. I mean that any character engaging Hawke in active gameplay combat will lose, via the power of save scumming if nothing else. Characters don't formulate plans that account for the fact that entering combat with Hawke is an automatic death sentence because they don't know they're in a video game. This is why I call it Gameplay and Story Segregation and not, say, Plot Immunity.

In any case, the situations you describe are setbacks, not defeats, with the possible exception of Meredith's Big Damn Heroes introduction, which involves a character Hawke has not engaged in gameplay combat.

Hekateras wrote... 

2) On the other hand, what you said is the exact reason I'm criticisng Danarius's gambit here, because it's what makes his whole approach to it wrong. Luring Fenris into a trap gives him every opportunity to prepare for the possibility of it being a trap, including calling on his ties to the Champion who freaking killed the Arishok, potentially in single combat. I doubt a magister of Tevinter would underestimate an enemy like that. By contrast, the fact that Fenris is a close friend of the Champion's living in Hightown seems to be common knowledge. Ambushing him with his sister as bait simply isn't necessary.

Huh. I hadn't thought about this before, but I had always assumed that Varania's presence in that scene was some sort of sadistic loyalty test for her as much as it was bait for Fenris. That's pure fanon, but it substantially influenced my interpretation of that scene in a way I hadn't considered.

Hekateras wrote...

...depending on where it's originally posted, you guys are probably stealing bandwidth and will eventually make that gif inaccessible, right? XD

It's on Tinypic, which I don't think has a bandwidth ceiling.

Modifié par Twofold Black, 10 avril 2011 - 12:43 .

[Hekateras]

Twofold Black wrote...

You misunderstand me. I don't mean that Hawke will automatically come out on top in any story situation. I mean that any character engaging Hawke in active gameplay combat will lose, via the power of save scumming if nothing else. Characters don't formulate plans that account for the fact that entering combat with Hawke is an automatic death sentence because they don't know they're in a video game. This is why I call it Gameplay and Story Segregation and not, say, Plot Immunity.

Yes - gameplay-wise, if you fight them, then you'll beat them regardless of how good Danarius's guards are. (Although landing in Fort Drakon in Origins was actually a result of a failed gameplay battle, too, come to think of it.) What I'm saying is that from his POV, anything involving a face-on battle should have been dismissed as too risky because Hawke's good at fighting, because it's messy and chaotic and Fenris could get away, and because Fenris has proven to be damned good at that sort of thing, too. Hence, Danarius's approach doesn't make sense.

In any case, the situations you describe are setbacks, not defeats, with the possible exception of Meredith's Big Damn Heroes introduction, which involves a character Hawke has not engaged in gameplay combat.

Huh. I hadn't thought about this before, but I had always assumed that Varania's presence in that scene was some sort of sadistic loyalty test for her as much as it was bait for Fenris. That's pure fanon, but it substantially influenced my interpretation of that scene in a way I hadn't considered.

That's an interesting idea... Wouldn't Varania telling him about the letters have been more of a loyalty test, though? After you come to meet her, there is nothing she can do either way - not much of a loyalty test by then...

[tigrina]

If Varania was Danarius apprentice, I bet she isn't the first one to read her own letters actually.