55380 réponses à ce sujet

[Ashera]

Twofold Black wrote...

Read back a few pages. We just did this last week.

What I don't get is why people care what other people think about the characters in a game. I mean, I could care less about the people who think Merrill is awesome-sauce, and I don't go to their thread and ask why people like her. Especially a reason such as "I am a STRAIGHT WOMAN AND I DON"T LIKE MERRILL!! WHY DO STRAIGHT WOMEN LIKE HER??!!!" It's enough for me to know that I don't much care for her, and I have what I consider sufficient reasons for doing so. Seriously, this question is getting kind of annoying. We get it, you don't like Fenris. No one says you have to.

Edit: By you, I don't mean you, Twofold Black. I mean the person who left the original question (too much snipping).

Modifié par Ashera, 16 avril 2011 - 11:43 .

[Aeryn-Sun]

I think a lot of the people who don't understand the appeal of Fenris - be it friendship, romance, or even simply his value as a fighter in the party - are people who never or rarely take him anywhere, or are people who try to defy the rivalry system by trying to force-friend every companion and get frustrated by Fenris' feelings on mages. I can't offer a "straight male" perspective, but I would recommend to anyone who dislikes Fenris that they take the time to really try to get to know his character before dismissing him. If, after extensive time together, a player decides that he still sucks, then we'll just chalk it up to personal preference.

[Seneva]

I just don't like his personality. Always negative. Great fighter though, hardly ever use him.

[Rheia]

Ashera wrote...

Twofold Black wrote...

Read back a few pages. We just did this last week.

What I don't get is why people care what other people think about the characters in a game. I mean, I could care less about the people who think Merrill is awesome-sauce, and I don't go to their thread and ask why people like her. Especially a reason such as "I am a STRAIGHT WOMAN AND I DON"T LIKE MERRILL!! WHY DO STRAIGHT WOMEN LIKE HER??!!!" It's enough for me to know that I don't much care for her, and I have what I consider sufficient reasons for doing so. Seriously, this question is getting kind of annoying. We get it, you don't like Fenris. No one says you have to.

Edit: By you, I don't mean you, Twofold Black. I mean the person who left the original question (too much snipping).

In all the fairness, it was a legitimate question. The way the characters are written, they often immediately appeal to certain audiences and require careful consideration before they become even remotely likable by others. Remember Carth and Bastilla, for example? Just judging it by my own circle of friends, my girlfriends generally adored Carth and were ticked off by Bastilla, while  their significant others couldn't say enough good things about Basilla and generally hated Carth.

I am not saying it is exactly the same case here with Fenris, but it does warrant some introspection.

I posted a link to the previous discussion about Fenris' character appeal on the previous page, btw.
Here it is again, in case it gets lost .  http://social.biowar...x/5481839/1453 

Starts about at 14th post from the top.

Modifié par Rheia, 17 avril 2011 - 12:02 .

[Ashera]

After a few minutes reflection, I guess I should clarify that what particularly irked me about this particular question was the way sexuality was dragged into it.

[Aeryn-Sun]

I don't think he was aiming to offend. I just think he was looking to avoid "it's 'cause he's so sexy~~~" or "dat voice!!1" type answers. ;p

[Shacary]

I dont mind sharing why I like the character { in this way he is well written , and i thought one of the most complete characters there} as long as they dont try to force my mind to change. Diversity in the world makes it way more interesting. I like complex characters, the survivors that retain a hidden strength and way more integrity than one expects. When i started the game I was totally thinking I didnt like ANY of the companions, but He really grew on me even tho I didnt romance etc him .
Then I tried the friendmance and that rocked opening up more facets I didnt see the time before, rivalmancry also added new data, but of all the companions... Im always driven to him as a keeper and god help me, I cannot roamnce another anymore
The voice acting is fabulous, most of them are pretty good but I still think Gideon Emery smoked his role .. as we say in the midwest DA BOMB! and the cinematics were fabulous too. Like the others say, he clicked, and it may not click for others, but he rocks my game world right now so YAY!
LOVE the FANFICS! and the Art work, even watched the ANders fanvideo. I may not like what ANders has become this game but I still appreciate art lol.

Modifié par Shacary, 17 avril 2011 - 12:06 .

[Twofold Black]

Ashera wrote...

Twofold Black wrote...

Read back a few pages. We just did this last week.

What I don't get is why people care what other people think about the characters in a game. I mean, I could care less about the people who think Merrill is awesome-sauce, and I don't go to their thread and ask why people like her. Especially a reason such as "I am a STRAIGHT WOMAN AND I DON"T LIKE MERRILL!! WHY DO STRAIGHT WOMEN LIKE HER??!!!" It's enough for me to know that I don't much care for her, and I have what I consider sufficient reasons for doing so. Seriously, this question is getting kind of annoying. We get it, you don't like Fenris. No one says you have to.

Edit: By you, I don't mean you, Twofold Black. I mean the person who left the original question (too much snipping).

I getcha.

Frankly, I think a big chunk of the gaming community is not accustomed to dealing with people who not only have preferences dissimilar from theirs, but are conducting a lively discussion about them in public in a place where they can be overheard.

Ashera wrote...

After a few minutes reflection, I guess I should clarify that what particularly irked me about this particular question was the way sexuality was dragged into it.

Yeah, I found that offensive. Yes, clearly the only reason I'm interested in a character XX55XX isn't is because of my sexual orientation. It's not as though I have other personality traits that bear somehow on my appreciation of fictional people. The explicit request for straight men to elaborate on the subject, with the implication that queer male and female fans (the latter of whom are assumed to find Fenris sexually interesting: bonus fallacy) will be unable to mount an explanation of their interest in Fenris that doesn't boil down to attraction, is also pretty damn appalling.

[Dr. Doctor]

I like Fenris for his personallity. Sure he can go into full on "all mages must be killed" mode when he's really ticked off, but he has solid reasons for his beliefs. He can be cold, and a bit of a jerk to other members of the party, see "A New Path"

(Yes Merrill is a blood mage and I get where Fenris is coming from but come on, the girl's mentor was just killed, be it her fault or not a little empathy would have been nice)

But at the same time he can be an excellent friend, who will tell you stories over a bottle of wine. And that's why I like him, he's got more than just one side to him he can be your friend or disagree with what you do but unlike Morrigan who was more about being a jerk for being a jerk's sake Fenris will disagre with you for understandable reasons.

David Gaider did an excellent job writing him. Fenris is our knight in sour armor

[Sherbet Lemon]

@XX55XX

I posted this a long time ago and I'm a lazy bum who likes to write a massive wall of text sometimes, but only one time.  It explains what I think of Fenris, why I like him in particular.

Village Idiot wrote...

I'd like to respond to this because I think I've seen this observation come up many times in many threads that are not this one.  I can't speak for all Fenris fans as far as why he or she feels the way they do about the character, but I can give you my reasoning as to why I think he's absolutely wonderful.

I've said it in this thread before and I'll say it again, I wasn't really sold until I took him to the Arishok during Blackpowder Courtesy and watched him speak the Qun.  He seemed oddly knowledgeable about Qunari culture despite the fact that he couldn't really read (I knew that Tevinter was at war with the Imperium but it wasn't until conversations in Act II that I began to understand the length/quanlity of his interactions).  That incident illustrates that he's incredibly perceptive, and highly intelligent.  He's able to pick up knowledge and internalize it in a way that one would not expect. I respect people with big brains (I'm missing mine so yeah) and this interaction implies a somewhat philosophical mind.  It's unexpected and very interesting. 

He's highly perceptive.  He will make some surprisingly astute comments about the nature of power and such if click on him at the right places.  His observations show a highly analytical mind which I tend to dig in a person, but that's just me.

Fenris can be funny.  He can joke and he laughs at sarcastic Hawke's jokes.  He has a pretty dry wit, but when he's snarking at someone who's deserving I find him to be hysterical.  The fact that he has a bit of a gambling problem adds a more "earthy" dimension to his personality.  With Hawke and Varric's influence, I think he learns to relax a little as evidenced by the cardplaying conversation he has with Aveline.  This is a good thing.  We are all positively influenced by others in real life and I like to see that translated into fiction.  I like to think that makes Fenris come across more sympathetic.

Mostly, I feel like Fenris and Hawke's relationship is pretty complex, at times very tenuous, but ultimately rewarding.  Fenris can be downright cruel to characters like Merrill, and Bethany.  I'm not even going to argue that it's right, but these flaws highlight and clash witht the parts of him that are admirable, you know kind of like a real person. I also can't think of a single character in Dragon Age 2 (well, except for Varric) who is without them.  No doubt, he is bruised character, utterly survivalist, and sometimes without mercy in his dealing with other people, but  he is also gracious, empathetic (see Oranna), insightful, intelligent, apologetic, and if you stick with him –– quite loyal.  If you romance him, you really feel as if he loves Hawke, and I mean even the parts that he doesn't like about Hawke and that is the most authentic kind of love one can ask for.  To see the worst and best of someone and still care for them, is a relationship that is truly valuable.

I hope that answers your question. We do look at Fenris and go "oooh, hot elf with deep voice" very nice.  But that wouldn't hold my attention for very long.  I'd be bored if that were all there was to him.
I apologize for the wall of text, and I hope I don't sound like a psycho.

If you read all that...I salute you.  I'm sorry, as I try not to come across as pompous but I know sometimes I do.  Gah.

Modifié par Village Idiot, 17 avril 2011 - 12:23 .

[Shacary]

OO totally WSS^
You Messere I am thinking , may not really be a Village Idiot!

[Sherbet Lemon]

Shacary wrote...

OO totally WSS^
You Messere I am thinking , may not really be a Village Idiot!

Thanks Shacary.  You're very sweet though I really am an idiot.  Sometimes I read posts I have just written and do an implied face palm. *ugh* So idiotic.... >.<

I just really adore Fenris.  I know he's not always popular and I just want people to see what I see even though I know that that's not always possible.

So XX55XX–– thanks for asking your question.  Don't be afraid to come back.  We like discussion in this thread!


EDIT: Point in case...the website I just linked to.  What was that I don't even....I shall now hang my head in shame. T_T

Modifié par Village Idiot, 17 avril 2011 - 12:44 .

[XX55XX]

I'm really not trying to offend. Sorry if I rubbed you guys off the wrong way and suggested that you like Fenris on the singular basis that he is a very handsome person. I am not trying to suggest that at all.

But, at the same time, I don't think anyone should be afraid to admit that they like a certain character because aesthetic appeal played a part in influencing their opinion. Let's say, Merrill was more like Wynne's age and had more wrinkles. I probably still would have liked Merrill, but I wouldn't have liked as much as I do now.

I asked the ladies this in the Kaidan thread in the Mass Effect message boards a while back myself, and their responses generally satisfied my curiosity, since, I, being a male, couldn't exactly grasp why these women loved Kaidan so much. Their responses allowed me to see how they view Kaidan in a way that I, with my male mindset, just can't. It's the same with Fenris.

I don't hate Fenris at all. But I feel as if he is overshadowed by some of the other DA2 characters. His backstory is pretty mundane up until the point where his sister shows up and tells him that he sacrificed himself to allow her and rest fo Fenris' family a taste of freedom.

Modifié par XX55XX, 17 avril 2011 - 12:48 .

[Twofold Black]

XX55XX wrote...

I, being a male, couldn't exactly grasp why these women loved Kaidan so much. Their responses allowed me to see how they view Kaidan in a way that I, with my male mindset, just can't.

I need so much more beer before I can have this conversation.

[Affably]

XX55XX wrote...
I asked the ladies this in the Kaidan thread in the Mass Effect message boards a while back myself, and their responses generally satisfied my curiosity, since, I, being a male, couldn't exactly grasp why these women loved Kaidan so much. Their responses allowed me to see how they view Kaidan in a way that I, with my male mindset, just can't. It's the same with Fenris.

So I take it you don't have any male buddies.

[legbamel]

Twofold Black wrote...

XX55XX wrote...
I, being a male, couldn't exactly grasp why these women loved Kaidan so much. Their responses allowed me to see how they view Kaidan in a way that I, with my male mindset, just can't.

I need so much more beer before I can have this conversation.

I'm guessing I probably responded there so I won't here.  Suffice it to say that there are plenty of guys out there who bromance Kaidan, too, just like there are lots of guys who dig Fenris once they spend more than ten seconds skipping through dialogue with him thinking, "Sexy voice, puppy eyes, not for me."

[XX55XX]

Really? I hated Kaidan. I thought he was more whiney than even Fenris. I can tolerate Fenris, but Kaidan? Damn I just hate the guy.

[Helen0rz]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Oh hey it's mah Fenris doodle.

IT'S AWESOME THAT'S WHAT IT ISSS!!!

[Helen0rz]

 
by ~Savvid

[Helen0rz]

 GUYS...

I lol'd

http://mkdblackmaste...ime fenris&qo=9

Modifié par Helen0rz, 17 avril 2011 - 01:06 .

[Sherbet Lemon]

XX55XX wrote...

I'm really not trying to offend. Sorry if I rubbed you guys off the wrong way and suggested that you like Fenris on the singular basis that he is a very handsome person. I am not trying to suggest that at all.

But, at the same time, I don't think anyone should be afraid to admit that they like a certain character because aesthetic appeal played a part in influencing their opinion. Let's say, Merrill was more like Wynne's age and had more wrinkles. I probably still would have liked Merrill, but I wouldn't have liked as much as I do now.

Well certainly.

I'd agree that all four love interests are generally somewhat attractive and I mean anyone who was around when the first images of Aveline and Isabela first appeared remembers that some of the the comments were...quite distasteful.

People are shallow.

Yes, we find Fenris attractive, but that's not all he is.  I wasn't offended by your question in the slightest.  I get offended by the people who call him JRPG/JPOP etc. because I think it arises from some of the racist/sexist attitudes Westerners have toward Asian men (but I don't want to go there, I really don't).

I asked the ladies this in the Kaidan thread in the Mass Effect message boards a while back myself, and their responses generally satisfied my curiosity, since, I, being a male, couldn't exactly grasp why these women loved Kaidan so much. Their responses allowed me to see how they view Kaidan in a way that I, with my male mindset, just can't. It's the same with Fenris.

This is my turn to ask you a question because now, I'm curious.  What is it about your "male mind" that makes it difficult for you to understand what someone would find attractive about Fenris?   I don't understand this and I mean not rudeness.  Is there something about him that men would be put off about?

I don't hate Fenris at all. But I feel as if he is overshadowed by some of the other DA2 characters. His backstory is pretty mundane up until the point where his sister shows up and tells him that he sacrificed himself to allow her and rest fo Fenris' family a taste of freedom.

I guess that's just personal preference.  I actually find his backstory interesting.  We have heard about the Tevinter Imperium in two games and in this game, we finally meet someone who comes from there and we get to see what he's like.

And to quote myself again from earlier in this very thread (I'm sorry, but I'm feeling lazy tonight ):

Village Idiot wrote...
Fenris’s trouble comes for more than just loosing memory and thusly onlyhaving the cruelty of slavery being his only memory.  Fenris’s trouble is derived from the existing person that was pre-memory loss being irreconcilable to the person that he is post-memory loss.   The person that Fenris was before then exists in a existence that is stagnant and in stasis just out of grasp.  It is this person that possesses a strong tie to family and is the reason why he has that need to put down roots.

His quest “Alone”  seems to hint at this subtlely and allude to this stagnant duality.  The person that Varania describes (Leto) seems noble,and self-sacrificing in that he gave up his identity to free his motherand sister from slavery.  This is why I think the bitterness, the hate for magic that he clings to  is so debilitating.  Leto and Fenris are not the same people and yet they are at the same time  (which is why I think Fenris’s reaction to Ander’s possession is so very ironic).

This is what makes him so intriguing.  The connection between memory and identity is so dichotomous as it is both tangible and intangible.  It's such an interesting presentation of that idea.  Again, perhaps it's just personal preference?

Modifié par Village Idiot, 17 avril 2011 - 01:19 .

[Tashash]

@Rhea - LOL. The first time I did Bait and Switch and Fenris yells "Daneirus, can you hear me? Your pets cannot stop us!" my first thought was 'Way to give away the fact that you have back-up, glowy.'

HawkeIsabelaFenris sandwich....Yummy! Aimo is a GOD!

[tankgirly]

Astrobat's one every page gif.

[steph01423]

May as well add a little input to the whole "what is appealling about Fenris" topic. Why not? I'm still a bit of a newbie on the thread and haven't really delved hardcore into this one yet... so....

I apologize for the wall of text in advance. I like to ramble too much.

I never disliked Fenris but to be honest I didn't really pay much attention to him in my first playthrough. It wasn't until the second time around when I really got into his dialogue, brought him along for more quests, and eventually decided to go after a rivalmance with my mage femHawke that I really got to liking him. Although I'm only human and it's no secret that looking good and having Gideon Emery's voice never hurts, what really appealled to me about Fenris was just how well-executed his character was. How he perceived things and his reactions to different situations just made sense for someone in his shoes (or lack thereof considering he technically doesn't wear any). I can't think of any situations in game when I thought "that's really out of character." Everything just seemed to work.

I know that some people have disdain for Fenris because of his "brooding," "negativity," and dislike of mages, but I think for him to act any less hateful or bitter about a group of people that made his life a living hell would have been a disservice to his character. I would have been horribly disappointed if my mage could've easily changed his mind or influenced him to think like her. He wouldn't have been Fenris anymore. My Hawke was never outright mean to him... quite the contrary. More or less she was just pro-mage-autonomy as she definitely could never see herself forced to live in the Circle and not allowed to have a life of her own... so it wasn't any animosity but their differences in opinions in terms of magic and people who practice it that were enough to get them down the rivalry romance when I played. Throughout their relationship, romantic or otherwise, I liked that Fenris challenged her at times and gave her another look at things. I liked the give and take that they had, and I liked that during the course of the story, they could both learn a little and grow from their interactions with eachother.
Mage Hawke could show him the side of magic that wasn't so dark and
evil, and he could open her eyes to the side that was. Etc.

I loved that Fenris' character didn't stay static and that throughout the game you could really see him develop. And I like that he did quite a bit of that developing on his own and was his own person, and didn't depend entirely on Hawke to "find himself" or reach his conclusions. I liked his backstory and thought his writing and voice-acting were right on par. It takes a special kind of talent to make a "broody" character like Fenris endearing and not overbearing, but this one was done right I think. Once you invest in him and actually try to crack that shell, you find
out that he's not one-dimensional, and actually is really quite multi-faceted and complex. The extra touches like his occassional dry humor, his intelligence about a number of things like language and the Qun, and the unexpected (at least for me) not-being-able-to-read angle really added to his character as a whole package. I found him to be one of most believable, genuine, and even relatable characters once I actually took the time to invest in him. Agree with him or not, I could get where he was coming from.

All in all, he just clicked for me.

I like to write and get really into stories... so I appreciate characters that strike me as particularly well-crafted. Fen is just one of those characters for me. So I guess that's part of the appeal.

Okay enough rambling. Just my two cents.

Modifié par steph01423, 17 avril 2011 - 02:09 .

[yoshibb]

XX55XX wrote...

Really? I hated Kaidan. I thought he was more whiney than even Fenris. I can tolerate Fenris, but Kaidan? Damn I just hate the guy.

I don't want to have to defend Kaidan and Fenris in one thread so I'll just stick with Fenris for now. Generally I do not like people who brood, complain, and whine UNLESS they have a reason for it. For instance, Anders annoys me because I never really get the sense that he had all that much pain in his background. In fact a lot of the time he seems to bring the problems on himself (the constant escaping, the fighting of the templars at every turn). I guess if he gave me more examples of why he was so oppressed I'd understand better, but I never really got a sense that it was really as bad as he made it out to be. 

While I got that the minute I met Fenris. He's covered with lyrium markings, has zero memories outside of mages torturing and humiliating him, and he's on the run from a bunch of mages trying to make him a slave again. It makes perfect sense that he'd be a little depressed after that but it doesn't last. Towards the end, if you get to know him, he will lighten up. Some examples of companion dialogue from Act 3:

Fenris: I was speaking with Donnic the other day...
Aveline: Since when do you talk with my husband?
Fenris: He... comes to the mansion once a week? We play diamondback.
Aveline: What? Why am I not invited to these games?
Fenris: He says you get angry when you lose.
Aveline: I do not! All right, perhaps I do. Still, that's no reason not to tell me.
Fenris: He's a good man, Aveline. I enjoy his visits.
Aveline: Fine, fine. Have your "man time," then.

Varric: You know you still owe me five sovereigns, elf.
Fenris: I'm good for it.
Varric: Meaning you'll borrow it from Hawke, probably.
Varric: Coming to the Hanged Man for Wicked Grace later?
Fenris: Never miss it.

And refuses to turn in mages in the party because he is loyal to Hawke:

Sebastian: It's our duty to tell the templars.
Fenris: Then why haven't you done it?
Sebastian: I guess I was hoping they'd come to it on their own.
Fenris: And then you wouldn't have to betray Hawke's friends, right?
Sebastian: That's not reason enough to allow a maleficar to walk free.
Sebastian: Which of us should do it? Shall we draw lots?
Fenris: Uh-uh. You want to turn them in, you work it out with Hawke.

The point is, he only had bad experiences with mages before and that tainted his view, but once he meets a different world, particularly if Hawke is a mage, he isn't as broody, anti mage, and angry all the time. To the point that even if you are at decent enough friendship with him or full rivalry, he will support the mages with you. He'll never completely change his views because of what he's seen, but he will become more understanding and tolerant of mages with help from Hawke.