55380 réponses à ce sujet

[Aeryn-Sun]

tankgirly wrote...



vinghen added the markings on.

So freaking gorgeous. *stares*

Maybe it's just me, but I really like when Fenris' markings are less...fluid? More like random veins of lyrium and less like deliberate design.

Modifié par Aeryn-Sun, 18 avril 2011 - 12:15 .

[Rheia]

That's gorgeous. Three dimnesional effect too... can't look away, haha. Must stalk author and leave nice comments!

[Hekateras]

Aeryn-Sun wrote...

Fenris' behavior toward Hawke's (and Isabela's) flirting also gives me the impression that he has no negative sexual background. He reacts with surprise, or the occasional dry exasperation, and even curiosity and fondness to sexual advances, even in Act 1. Those reactions don't seem the kind that would come from someone who had been repeatedly abused in any sexual manner.

Those are what I consider to be the most convincing arguments against Fenris having a background of sexual abuse. He is indeed nowhere as twitchy about issues of sex as one would expect an abuse victim to be.

However, I see one potential problem with this approach.

You guys are comparing him to the behaviour of someone who was raised normally, with normal values, and then had their trust and feeling of self-worth violated horribly through sexual abuse, in a way that leaves a deep imprint on their personality and sense of security.

That is not Fenris's situation. He was memory-wiped. His initial personality, values and understanding of right and wrong, normal and abnormal, have all been shaped by Danarius. In a very real way, if anything happened to him, it can be compared to child abuse. He could have experienced it and assumed it to be "normal", because that's the kind of world he "grew up" in. Consider actual victims of childhood molestation - it is very common to have a sort of detachment about what happened, particularly if the abuser was a trusted adult who manipulated the child into a feeling of acceptance. It is not uncommon for the abuses to become a repressed memory. And of course, there's the fact that a relationship that includes repeated sexual abuse (especially if the victim finds themselves feeling pleasure at any point) is also very prone to Stockholm's Syndrome and the victim deluding themselves into thinking that the abuser must genuinely care for them, if they "care" enough to sexually exploit them. Lima Syndrome - the inverse of SS - also seems to provide a more believable reason for Danarius to keep chasing Fenris after all these years than the rankled pride and financial investment issues Fenris keeps citing. It's a very warped and twisted way of thinking that seems entirely at home in the Tevinter Imperium.

Consider again that all of Fenris's impressions of an alternate way to live came first and foremost from the Fog Warriors and then the people after them. Before the Fog Warriors, he had never even thought of escaping. Just let that sink in for a moment. Afterwards, he would only have been able to learn what they happened to teach. I think it perfectly plausible that certain aspects of his worldview received a reality check and broke free of what his master ingrained into him, while other aspects had yet to catch up.

Fenris's lack of twitchiness, for lack of a better word, at others' sexual advances, can easily stem from some level of failure to emotionally process what happened to him, as in accepting or repressing it. If it doesn't stand out compared to everything else he's suffered, there's no reason for it to affect his interaction with the others.

On an entirely different level, consider how the talk with Danarius is written, listen to the voice acting, the animations, the word choice. Danarius's line about jealousy and Fen being "rather skilled" are immediately preceeded by calling a female Hawke Fenris's new "Mistress" and describing her as "lovely". That certainly sets the tone for how "jealousy" is to be interpreted. There's also Fen's reaction to either that or the "affection" line. "Shut your mouth, Danarius!", complete with defensive hunching over, ready to pounce. It also feels very much like him trying to prevent further humiliation or some unpleasant part of his past coming out - it's one of the few times in the game when Fenris sounds genuinely ashamed. There's also the time Hawke listens to Fenris's tale of Seheron - they both very carefully tiptoe around any mention of his sexual experiences during his time of slavery.

Completely up to interpretation, of course. Implied at best. But this is Bioware's writing team that already brought us no shortage of dark things that I hardly need to list. They could not have put those lines there without noticing how it might look and above all sound. If they chose to leave them there, I consider it justified to take those implications to one of the logical conclusions, namely that a lack of sexual abuse, in particular for Fenris (with his oft-remarked upon "pretty eyes", lanky build and exotic markings), seems a bit too good to be true.

...And that's definitely enough writing for now. O_O

Modifié par Hekateras, 18 avril 2011 - 12:41 .

[Fruit of the Doom]

Ryzaki wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

While I don't believe Fenris was sexually abused I do believe he was abused both mentally and physically.

Danarius: "Oh, how little you know, my pet."

Danarius: (to Hawke) "Do I detect a note of jealousy? It's not surprising. The lad is rather skilled, isn't he?"

Danarius: "You weren't always this way, Fenris. Once upon a time you had affection for me. I remember it fondly."

And? 

That doesn't have to mean sexual abuse. Skilled refers to Fenris combat skills. Affection could be Danarius considered Fenris as a well trained attack dog and Fenris prized any scrap of affection (a compliment, a pat on the head) that Danarius gave him.

Your inferences are no more or less valid than mine.  He could be taunting him with a lie, or with the truth.

Personally, I think it is implied that Danarius used him as more than an attack dog.

[Ryzaki]

I don't think he was raped at all between the fog warriors he remarks on how open and bold (and free) they were with their affections and how it was unlike anything he had ever experienced. (heck it sounds like he slept with a few of them in that conversation consensually). Then of course I hate the fact that to be an abuser Danarius has to become a ridiculous caricature. I hate exaggerations. The womanly walk the sneer everything just was bleh. It was overdone. (Oh look here's the bad guy! And he has a womanly walk so you know he's queer! Ha ha!) I far prefer it when abusers are depicted as average people outwardly because the average abuser I met is someone you wouldn't expect of doing it. They don't walk a certain way or act a certain way. Not openly.

Not to mention how if he reacts badly to everything else that Danarius taught him why not sex? It leaves a gaping hole to me. He recognizes the abuse the elf girl may have suffered ("did they touch you?") but doesn't recognize it on himself? It just doesn't make sense. I would expect him to be a clinical and blunt about that as anything else. He goes on and on about not hiding what he is.

Edit: I wasn't trying to "invalidate."  anything. I reacted to you shoving that in my face as though I had never heard it before.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 avril 2011 - 12:44 .

[Aeryn-Sun]

Hekateras wrote...
*snip*
You guys are comparing him to the behaviour of someone who was raised normally, with normal values, and then had their trust and feeling of self-worth violated horribly through sexual abuse, in a way that leaves a deep imprint on their personality and sense of security.
*snip*

I have to run off to make dinner - curse you reality! - but I just wanted to say before I forget that it's not as simple as basing my impression off of normal folk's reactions. I'm basing my impression mostly off of his behavior patterns in both related and unrelated situations. I do understand what you're saying, and I can relate to your points far more easily than I care to detail. It's just not what I see (or chose to see) in his particular case. Gah, wish I had more time, but fruit salad demands to be made.

[Fruit of the Doom]

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't think so. With the fog warriors he remarks on how open and bold they were with their affections and how it was unlike anything he had ever experienced. Then of course I hate the fact that to be an abuser Danarius has to become a ridiculous caricature. I hate exaggerations. The womanly walk the sneer everything just was bleh. It was overdone. I far prefer it when abusers are depicted as average people outwardly because the average abuser I met is someone you wouldn't expect of doing it. They don't walk a certain way or act a certain way. Not openly.

Not to mention how if he reacts badly to everything else that Danarius taught him why not sex? It leaves a gaping hole to me. He recognizes the abuse the elf girl may have suffered ("did they touch you?") but doesn't recognize it on himself? It just doesn't make sense. I would expect him to be a clinical and blunt about that as anything else. He goes on and on about not hiding what he is.

Edit: I wasn't trying to "invalidate."  anything. I reacted to you shoving that in my face as though I had never heard it before.

So basically you hate the thought of it, and respond vehemently to any suggestions of it as a result.

I could just as easily say that he doesn't wish to talk about it, and is simply his normal stoic self asides.  I've had a very, very nasty experience with someone who was into bondage (while I was not) that got me quite drunk and did some unpleasant things to me.  That hasn't left me emotionally distraught and phobic about sex as a result (no one is ever tying me to a bed again though).  Fenris has obviously had some experience with sex, and I don't think Danarius let him go out on dates.

It's all speculation, you need to stop getting so worked up about it.  I wasn't "shoving it in your face" I was just quoting some lines that I thought sounded creepy and suggestive.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 18 avril 2011 - 12:47 .

[Ryzaki]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...
So basically you hate the thought of it, and respond vehemently to any suggestions of it as a result.

Cute let's try to make the situation more antagonistic. Like you're so good at doing. Don't worry Fruit. I'll be sure never to respond to you again.

If you must know that's not my reaction.

I could just as easily say that he doesn't wish to talk about it, and is simply his normal stoic self asides.  I've had a very, very nasty experience with someone who was into bondage (while I was not) that got me quite drunk and did some unpleasant things to me.  That hasn't left me emotionally distraught and phobic about sex as a result.  Fenris has obviously had some experience with sex, and I don't think Danarius let him go out on dates.

It's all speculation, you need to stop getting so worked up about it.  I wasn't "shoving it in your face" I was just quoting some lines that I thought sounded creepy and suggestive.

And I don't see that.

And your interpretation is yours. Regardless I had heard those lines before and was fully aware of them. There was no need for you to quote them at me. If you weren't trying to make a statement there was no need to quote me and then post the lines in direct quote to my statement. And with that this is my last response to you. Have a nice life.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 avril 2011 - 12:52 .

[Fruit of the Doom]

Ryzaki wrote...

Cute let's try to make the situation more antagonistic. Like you're so good at doing.

If you must know that's not my reaction.

Sorry, it just seemed to be the case.

And I don't see that.

And your interpretation is yours. Regardless I had heard those lines before and was fully aware of them. There was no need for you to quote them at me. If you weren't trying to make a statement there was no need to quote me and then post the lines in direct quote to my statement.

I didn't know that, and I definitely wouldn't have posted them if I knew it would antagonize you so much.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 18 avril 2011 - 12:54 .

[Kikuyoshi]

 Moar art for this page  :3


by: darianaloki.deviantart.com/#/d3cqk9s


by: enchantedtiki.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d3ajnpr


by: alas-de-metal.deviantart.com/gallery/


n______n

[Fruit of the Doom]

Kikuyoshi wrote...


by: alas-de-metal.deviantart.com/gallery/

n______n

I hope it isn't THAT kind of tattoo, otherwise indescribable agony is about to ensue...

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 18 avril 2011 - 12:56 .

[Sherbet Lemon]

Soooo....ummmmm...BUNNIES!

No, seriously...I've been thinking and I don't know if we've talked about this yet, but I'm curious about people's thoughts on the postgame. This is one of those things where really it can go anywhere until we get DLC or the next game, but I'm wondering, do you think Fenris will ever want to patch things up with his sister?  I mean, assuming she's alive.  If Hawke is in a relationship with Fenris at the endgame, they're together (well, at least for now).  Do you think Hawke might convince him to talk with her?  Furthermore, where do you think a non-romanced Fenris goes at the endgame? 

Sorry if this has been talked about before but I wanted to bring it up if it hasn't!

[Helen0rz]

so I walked away for a sec and a heated discussion happened? without me? SIGH

well then,
have some Fenris then

by ~JustAnoR

[Helen0rz]

Village Idiot wrote...

Soooo....ummmmm...BUNNIES!

No, seriously...I've been thinking and I don't know if we've talked about this yet, but I'm curious about people's thoughts on the postgame. This is one of those things where really it can go anywhere until we get DLC or the next game, but I'm wondering, do you think Fenris will ever want to patch things up with his sister?  I mean, assuming she's alive.  If Hawke is in a relationship with Fenris at the endgame, they're together (well, at least for now).  Do you think Hawke might convince him to talk with her?  Furthermore, where do you think a non-romanced Fenris goes at the endgame? 

Sorry if this has been talked about before but I wanted to bring it up if it hasn't!

I don't think so. Fenris doesn't take betrayal very well in my opinion. He's a very cautious man; if you screw him over once, he wouldn't trust you again. My Hawke won't try to convince him to reconcile with his sister, there's no reason to. Varania did not bother to give the relationship a chance, she decided there wasn't going to be a relationship so why bother patch things up just so she might use him again?

I would like to picture Fenris going back to Tevinter and kill off every slavers he can get his hands on

[Kikuyoshi]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Kikuyoshi wrote...
[image]
by: alas-de-metal.deviantart.com/gallery/

n______n

I hope it isn't THAT kind of tattoo, otherwise indescribable agony is about to ensue...

x____x That....would be bad. 

hmm...i will continue to just think of it as some fun fingerpaint time for the two of them 

[Fruit of the Doom]

Kikuyoshi wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Kikuyoshi wrote...
[image]
by: alas-de-metal.deviantart.com/gallery/

n______n

I hope it isn't THAT kind of tattoo, otherwise indescribable agony is about to ensue...

x____x That....would be bad. 

hmm...i will continue to just think of it as some fun fingerpaint time for the two of them 

Hawke: "Owch, it's starting to burn a little."

Fenris: "That's nothing, the Maker couldn't describe the pain you are going to experience over the next few weeks as the lyrium embeds itself in your skin."

Hawke: "WHAAAAAT?!"

Fenris: "I thought you said you wanted me to share all my feelings and experiences with you?"

[Kikuyoshi]

 :pinched: <-- current facial expression. no joke >-<; 

i'm battling with myself over if i should try to write fanfic or not >.> Never done it before....but the idea of writing a piece over fenris crying over a dead Hawke has been festering in my brain ever since you guys discussed it. -pulls out hair- 

watdo? o.o if i completely muck up his personality i feel like i'll want to shun myself xD

[legbamel]

ladyofpayne wrote...

tankgirly wrote...


Oh my sweet Maker.

by maqeurious

I know- they love each other.

Om nom nom nom.  [fans self]  I agree that the tattoo replacement is dumb but hubba hubba!  At least anders has some, too, unless that's corruption climbing his neck.  Must...stop...watching...

[Helen0rz]

Kikuyoshi wrote...

 :pinched: <-- current facial expression. no joke >-<; 

i'm battling with myself over if i should try to write fanfic or not >.> Never done it before....but the idea of writing a piece over fenris crying over a dead Hawke has been festering in my brain ever since you guys discussed it. -pulls out hair- 

watdo? o.o if i completely muck up his personality i feel like i'll want to shun myself xD

I say you write it.

seriously, you really really should. REALLY should

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

Kikuyoshi wrote...

 :pinched: <-- current facial expression. no joke >-<; 

i'm battling with myself over if i should try to write fanfic or not >.> Never done it before....but the idea of writing a piece over fenris crying over a dead Hawke has been festering in my brain ever since you guys discussed it. -pulls out hair- 

watdo? o.o if i completely muck up his personality i feel like i'll want to shun myself xD

If you're worried about it, I could help you edit it.

I'm excellent with grammar and spelling and I could give you some critque on it before you post.

Modifié par Madame Rose Crimsynn, 18 avril 2011 - 01:43 .

[Kikuyoshi]

Helen0rz wrote...

Kikuyoshi wrote...

 :pinched: <-- current facial expression. no joke >-<; 

i'm battling with myself over if i should try to write fanfic or not >.> Never done it before....but the idea of writing a piece over fenris crying over a dead Hawke has been festering in my brain ever since you guys discussed it. -pulls out hair- 

watdo? o.o if i completely muck up his personality i feel like i'll want to shun myself xD

I say you write it.

seriously, you really really should. REALLY should

currently dabbling ^-^;; ....cross your fingers my inspiration can pull out a fantastic fenris for you all to enjoy.  I'll post here when i deem it worthy of viewing ._. 

[dangereusegirl]

Hey MCR, mind if I poke you if I need some beta-ing done? I'm horrible at stuff like proofreading. I usually have my grandmother do it, but I don't trust her with DA2 stuff.

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

dangereusegirl wrote...

Hey MCR, mind if I poke you if I need some beta-ing done? I'm horrible at stuff like proofreading. I usually have my grandmother do it, but I don't trust her with DA2 stuff.

Nope, don't mind at all!

Do you want to just PM it to me, or should I PM you my email have you email it over and I can edit it that way?

Modifié par Madame Rose Crimsynn, 18 avril 2011 - 01:56 .

[dangereusegirl]

Whatever works for you. I've got to get what I've written transferred from my notebook to my laptop, anyway, so anything I send won't be until tomorrow evening anyway.

[Twofold Black]

Hekateras wrote...

Aeryn-Sun wrote...

Fenris' behavior toward Hawke's (and Isabela's) flirting also gives me the impression that he has no negative sexual background. He reacts with surprise, or the occasional dry exasperation, and even curiosity and fondness to sexual advances, even in Act 1. Those reactions don't seem the kind that would come from someone who had been repeatedly abused in any sexual manner.

Those are what I consider to be the most convincing arguments against Fenris having a background of sexual abuse. He is indeed nowhere as twitchy about issues of sex as one would expect an abuse victim to be.

However, I see one potential problem with this approach.

You guys are comparing him to the behaviour of someone who was raised normally, with normal values, and then had their trust and feeling of self-worth violated horribly through sexual abuse, in a way that leaves a deep imprint on their personality and sense of security.

That is not Fenris's situation. He was memory-wiped. His initial personality, values and understanding of right and wrong, normal and abnormal, have all been shaped by Danarius. In a very real way, if anything happened to him, it can be compared to child abuse. He could have experienced it and assumed it to be "normal", because that's the kind of world he "grew up" in. Consider actual victims of childhood molestation - it is very common to have a sort of detachment about what happened, particularly if the abuser was a trusted adult who manipulated the child into a feeling of acceptance. It is not uncommon for the abuses to become a repressed memory. And of course, there's the fact that a relationship that includes repeated sexual abuse (especially if the victim finds themselves feeling pleasure at any point) is also very prone to Stockholm's Syndrome and the victim deluding themselves into thinking that the abuser must genuinely care for them, if they "care" enough to sexually exploit them. Lima Syndrome - the inverse of SS - also seems to provide a more believable reason for Danarius to keep chasing Fenris after all these years than the rankled pride and financial investment issues Fenris keeps citing. It's a very warped and twisted way of thinking that seems entirely at home in the Tevinter Imperium.

This is one of those areas (as with the mage-templar conflict, where "horrifyingly flawed" seems to be the best you can hope for) where comparisons between the events of DAII and the real world don't entirely work. Coming out of his mindwipe with fully adult cognition and language but no episodic memories or sense of identity (presumably; absent details, I assume standard fantasy retrograde amnesia), Fenris is less like an abused child than like, say, a self-aware service robot. But analogizing one speculative fictional scenario with another, particularly one in which I control all the variables, is of limited usefulness.

I don't disagree with any of your points in the abstract, though I'm not sure all of them are germane or that applying them to Fenris results in consistent characterization. He's clearly capable of identifying abusive behavior as abusive behavior. Is it possible for someone in his specific circumstances -- starting from first principles in an abusive environment, without the inculturation that is partly responsible for our tendency to place sexual abuse in a different category from straightforward physical or psychological abuse -- to have processed everything but the sexual abuse sufficiently to speak about it in the fairly collected way he discusses what happened with e.g. Hadriana? Sure, but the idea gives me pause, and if I ran across it in a story I would expect the author to back it up with interiority or some sort of post-escape contextualization or something.

Your notion about Lima syndrome is dead on and makes Danarius suddenly twice as interesting to me as he was before.

Ryzaki wrote...

Then of course I hate the fact that to be an abuser Danarius has to become a ridiculous caricature. I hate exaggerations. The womanly walk the sneer everything just was bleh. It was overdone. (Oh look here's the bad guy! And he has a womanly walk so you know he's queer! Ha ha!)

Honestly, my tendency to push back against this idea is at least half because I'm tired of evil, coquettish queers. I think Danarius even uses Isabela's chest-out walk animation. We get it, Western media.

Modifié par Twofold Black, 18 avril 2011 - 02:13 .