55380 réponses à ce sujet

[MelRedux]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Maiafay wrote...

But Fenris has unfailing logic most of the time.  He just sounds too condescending and well-spoken to be an angry runaway slave.

...
Add to that the fact that we don't know what his duties were. Danarius seems like the type who may be well amused by a bodyguard who can pour wine without spilling a drop while holding a philosophical discussion rather than just be good at chopping things up.

This ^

So he arguably has/had the capacity to carry on intellectual and deep conversation as a slave but still did not question his station in life?

How carefully would you have to filter the information your slave absorbed to manage that? o_O

Oh, he definitely questioned it!  Why else would he want and try to escape?  Perhaps that was Danarius' mistake....educating him too much.  Maybe Danarius thought if Fenris coudln't read, he was safe.  And he was wrong.

[upsettingshorts]

Mel_Redux wrote...

Oh, he definitely questioned it!  Why else would he want and try to escape?  Perhaps that was Danarius' mistake....educating him too much.

He didn't at first.  Didn't he say so much?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 avril 2011 - 06:55 .

[Ryzaki]

I found Fenris to be fine. He was a status symbol. It stands to reason Fenris would want to appear as intelligent as a slave could be without knowing how to read.

As for not escaping where would he go? Why would he leave? Up to that point it had been the only life he'd ever known. 

I thought the Fog Warriors gave him a reason to want to leave as well as knowing he could. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 avril 2011 - 06:59 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Mel_Redux wrote...

Oh, he definitely questioned it!  Why else would he want and try to escape?  Perhaps that was Danarius' mistake....educating him too much.  Maybe Danarius thought if Fenris coudln't read, he was safe.  And he was wrong.

But until he had an example of life beyond slavery, he did not want to escape or consider escaping or know that escaping was an option.

[Evindell]

Caliyhe wrote...

Evindell wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

I love philosophical character debates...

Me too.

Got any more popcorn?

Yes I do

Well, then. I'll just sit back and relax

[MelRedux]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

Oh, he definitely questioned it!  Why else would he want and try to escape?  Perhaps that was Danarius' mistake....educating him too much.

He didn't at first.  Didn't he say so much?

Not at first, no.  But he did eventually.

@Psuedo - Yes, true.  Perhaps that was just the nail in the coffin? 

[Caliyhe]

Evindell wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

Evindell wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

I love philosophical character debates...

Me too.

Got any more popcorn?

Yes I do

Well, then. I'll just sit back and relax

Indeed

[Hekateras]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

So far, I could agree to some extent with both sides of every arguement. The only one I have a real probelm with is that "Fenris sounds to eloquent for an illiterate". That makes no sense. He can hear, can't he? He can observe. He's obviously an intelligent guy, so picking up "how to be eloquent" just based on what he sees and observes doesn't seem that far-fetched.

Heck, I'm well-read and educated, but I still talk and write like an idiot. Why can't the opposite be true?

Because Fenris is The Only Example of what happens when mages have power and inflict that power over the little guy, but the eloquence + other things make him seem sort of... recovered/balanced/what have you. At least to me. It would have affected me more if you got the impression about how bad things are not by what he tells you about Tevinter but by what he does/does not do and not exclusively in the romance and not only these subtle inferred things I seem to miss... because the other characters beat you over the head with their motivations.

I dunno, the fact that the proof of Fenris's mistreatment at the hands of mages has been literally engraved into his skin and is the first thing anyone notices when they look at him, in addition to the fact that he doesn't know who he is, how old he is, when his birthday is, whether he has any family and that his contact with mages has completely messed up his life and psyche... I dunno, that seems obvious enough for me.

The fact that he's fairly logical and not raving mad is just the writers avoiding the use of a stereotype or pushing things too far - a good thing, IMO. If they'd actually gone the route you suggest, I'm certain everyone would be complaining about how anvilicious his suffering is. "He's illiterate and has a lousy temper and can't deal with people and can't even talk right! It's okay, we get it already!".

[upsettingshorts]

Thing is though Fenris himself points out on more than one occasion that the perspective of a slave is different - with Sarebaas and the elf girl are just two examples I can think of. The idea that he could have been a slave and balanced all of these positive character traits (logical, self aware of his rights, philosophical, and yes eloquent) before escaping seems to ask a lot of the character, especially one that is supposed to represent the cruelty of Tevinter oppression so convincingly given his role as a foil for Anders.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 avril 2011 - 07:06 .

[Hekateras]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Maiafay wrote...

But Fenris has unfailing logic most of the time.  He just sounds too condescending and well-spoken to be an angry runaway slave.

...
Add to that the fact that we don't know what his duties were. Danarius seems like the type who may be well amused by a bodyguard who can pour wine without spilling a drop while holding a philosophical discussion rather than just be good at chopping things up.

This ^

So he arguably has/had the capacity to carry on intellectual and deep conversation as a slave but still did not question his station in life?

How carefully would you have to filter the information your slave absorbed to manage that? o_O

Nobody ever said anything about Danarius wanting to educate Fenris - I just said that he seems like the sort who might expect the ability to speak prettily in someone who is always at his side.

[Affably]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Thing is though Fenris himself points out on more than one occasion that the perspective of a slave is different - with Sarebaas and the elf girl are just two examples I can think of. The idea that he could have been a slave and balanced all of these positive character traits (logical, self aware of his rights, philosophical, and yes eloquent) before escaping seems to ask a lot of the character, especially one that is supposed to represent the cruelty of Tevinter oppression so convincingly given his role as a foil for Anders.

Who said anything about him having fully developed these before escaping?

[upsettingshorts]

Affably wrote...

Who said anything about him having fully developed these before escaping?

The arguments that say he learned these things from the Magister, clearly.

I do imagine he gained perspective as he traveled, starting with the Fog Warriors, but the other things have no obvious explanation other than "oh, he picked that up when he was a slave." 

But considering I started out by essentially implying that his character struck me as having been filled with contradictions that made him better than he ought to be, arguing that he developed these positive character traits while on the run from slave catchers and dealing with cheap hirelings without learning some bad lessons along the way... I'm not sure what raising that particular issue is going to do for your case.  At least with me, anyway. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 avril 2011 - 07:12 .

[Hekateras]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Thing is though Fenris himself points out on more than one occasion that the perspective of a slave is different - with Sarebaas and the elf girl are just two examples I can think of. The idea that he could have been a slave and balanced all of these positive character traits (logical, self aware of his rights, philosophical, and yes eloquent) before escaping seems to ask a lot of the character, especially one that is supposed to represent the cruelty of Tevinter oppression so convincingly given his role as a foil for Anders.

Whoa there - philosphical, self-aware of his rights? Where did those come from? I admit "philosophical discussions" was the wrong word of me to use, since that DOES imply an education  as well as a certain equal status in said discussion. So, that's misleading. I take it back. But "self-aware of his rights" came right out of nowhere. Nobody said that.

Also, could someone tell me when Fenris shows this supposed astounding logic of his? He doesn't sound stupid in his conversations, yes. That isn't the same as displaying logic of a level that MUST require education and active development to attain.

[Tasmen]

Smart people do stupid things and believe stuff that often seems counter to their ability to apply logic.    Time and time again you hear stories about intelligent people that stay in situations you would think them smart enough to get themselves out of.  Yet, for some reason, they stay.

I suppose for me, this is how I reconcile Fenris' behavior in the game.   Some times you are just so mired in your own poop, that you are incapable of seeing the path to stepping out of it.

That said, I do think there are some opportunities missed with Fenris that I would have loved to see in game, including him being more integral to the game plot.

[Affably]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Affably wrote...

Who said anything about him having fully developed these before escaping?

The arguments that say he learned these things from the Magister, clearly.

I do imagine he gained perspective as he traveled, starting with the Fog Warriors, but the other things have no obvious explanation other than "oh, he picked that up when he was a slave."

Don't conflate linguistic eloquence with aptitude in logic, knowledge about person's rights, philosophy and so forth.  That's not what we've been talking about.

[Helen0rz]

@upsettingshorta

perhaps he serves a greater purpose in the next game?

I don know about you but Fenris's purpose to me is to ushering the culture of Tevinter. He's also the anti-mage character, who told us all along that mages are dangerous. He's that character basically wants us to drop that 'mages should be free' idea that we got from Origins because it's not a black and white issue. And questions like 'why is he illiterate' is like 'why is isabella sleeps aound or 'why is Merrill ridiculously ditzy'; it's a character trait given by the writers. It defines them. How writers like DG come up with stuff, or for any writers for that matter, is something you can't simply define. On top of that, all characters in DA2 played a minor role in pulling the string, moving the plot along.

I do think you're reading way too much into things. character analyzation is great, wanting to deeper is great; but it'd be nice if you're a bit nicer about it

[Hekateras]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Affably wrote...

Who said anything about him having fully developed these before escaping?

The arguments that say he learned these things from the Magister, clearly.

I do imagine he gained perspective as he traveled, starting with the Fog Warriors, but the other things have no obvious explanation other than "oh, he picked that up when he was a slave." 

But considering I started out by essentially implying that his character struck me as having been filled with contradictions that made him better than he ought to be, arguing that he developed these positive character traits while on the run from slave catchers and dealing with cheap hirelings without learning some bad lessons along the way... I'm not sure what raising that particular issue is going to do for your case.  At least with me, anyway. 

There were no arguments that say he learned "these things" from the magister. "These things" are just one thing - eloquence. Talking eloquently. That's it. That's what he undoubtedly picked up from the magister.

The other things - philosophy, self-awareness, etc. - are a mixture of the result of a bad word choice on my part as well as a strawman on yours - nobody ever said anything about self-awareness.

Affably wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Affably wrote...

Who said anything about him having fully developed these before escaping?

The arguments that say he learned these things from the Magister, clearly.

I
do imagine he gained perspective as he traveled, starting with the Fog
Warriors, but the other things have no obvious explanation other than
"oh, he picked that up when he was a slave."

Don't
conflate linguistic eloquence with aptitude in logic, knowledge about
person's rights, philosophy and so forth.  That's not what we've been
talking about.

Oh, thank the gods. THIS. ^  Now that's what I call eloquence.

Modifié par Hekateras, 20 avril 2011 - 07:15 .

[upsettingshorts]

Hekateras wrote...

Whoa there - philosphical, self-aware of his rights? Where did those come from? I admit "philosophical discussions" was the wrong word of me to use, since that DOES imply an education  as well as a certain equal status in said discussion. So, that's misleading. I take it back. But "self-aware of his rights" came right out of nowhere. Nobody said that.

It was probably the wrong choice of words, and that is indeed where it came from.  However, self-aware of his rights is something Fenris himself speaks of numerous times during the course of the game post escape, in at least two examples I've described above.

Hekateras wrote...

That isn't the same as displaying logic of a level that MUST require education and active development to attain.

Seems like precisely where that line is would be difficult to determine in any case.  

Hekateras wrote...

The other things - philosophy, self-awareness, etc. - are a mixture of the result of a bad word choice on my part as well as a strawman on yours - nobody ever said anything about self-awareness.

That particular aspect is not a strawman.  Fenris himself mentions it.  Several times.   It's practically "the lesson" he learned from his tragic Fog Warriors experience, and he describes it with Sarebaas and elf girl whose name I never remember.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 avril 2011 - 07:16 .

[MelRedux]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Affably wrote...

Who said anything about him having fully developed these before escaping?

The arguments that say he learned these things from the Magister, clearly.

I do imagine he gained perspective as he traveled, starting with the Fog Warriors, but the other things have no obvious explanation other than "oh, he picked that up when he was a slave."

I thought we were arguing why he sounds so eloquent, and why he seems educated, despite the fact the he is illiterate.  That he can pick up while he is a slave.

Everything else, including the "Hey, I could really escape, I can do this!" could have come from the Fog Warriors and everything after.

[Zeleen]

Caliyhe wrote...

Evindell wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

Evindell wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

I love philosophical character debates...

Me too.

Got any more popcorn?

Yes I do

Well, then. I'll just sit back and relax

Indeed

*sits in on the debate/discussion*  more popcorn?

Modifié par Zeleen, 20 avril 2011 - 07:18 .

[upsettingshorts]

Mel_Redux wrote...

I thought we were arguing why he sounds so eloquent, and why he seems educated, despite the fact the he is illiterate.  That he can pick up while he is a slave.

Everything else, including the "Hey, I could really escape, I can do this!" could have come from the Fog Warriors and everything after.

It was an attempt to show that all answers are not "the Magister did it."  That is where it seemed many of the defenses of Fenris' character traits seemed to be going.

Then there was word choice that raised some eyebrows and led to a different tangent.  Things get muddled.  It's how message board discussions go.

[Hekateras]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Seems like precisely where that line is would be difficult to determine in any case.  

I'd still like to hear what about Fenris's behaviour strikes people as being so impressively logical on a level that isn't merely common sense.

That particular aspect is not a strawman.  Fenris himself mentions it.  Several times.   It's practically "the lesson" he learned from his tragic Fog Warriors experience, and he describes it with Sarebaas and elf girl whose name I never remember.

So if you know and I know that he didn't learn it from Danarius and that it took the Fog Warriors to even introduce him to the idea.... what's the problem?

[Evindell]

Zeleen wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

Evindell wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

Evindell wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

I love philosophical character debates...

Me too.

Got any more popcorn?

Yes I do

Well, then. I'll just sit back and relax

Indeed

*sits in on the debate/discussion*  more popcorn?

As long as you brought more popcorn, then pull up a chair.

[upsettingshorts]

Hekateras wrote...

So if you know and I know that he didn't learn it from Danarius and that it took the Fog Warriors to even introduce him to the idea.... what's the problem?

That your word choice was bad when you implied that he learned about philosophy from the Magister?  Something you've already acknowledged.  As far as I'm concerned that particular tangent is settled, right?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 avril 2011 - 07:21 .

[Hekateras]

Zeleen wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

Evindell wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

Evindell wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

I love philosophical character debates...

Me too.

Got any more popcorn?

Yes I do

Well, then. I'll just sit back and relax

Indeed

*sits in on the debate/discussion*  more popcorn?

You could do something more useful as well, you know. Like posting that Tangled gif we've tragically forgotten about for the last few pages in our preoccupation.