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[Hekateras]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

So if you know and I know that he didn't learn it from Danarius and that it took the Fog Warriors to even introduce him to the idea.... what's the problem?

That your word choice was bad when you implied that he learned about philosophy from the Magister?  Something you've already acknowledged.  As far as I'm concerned that particular tangent is settled, right?

Philosophy - yes, my bad. "Hold a coherent conversation" was more along the lines of what I meant. Logic - he still could've learned that during slavery. Like I said, analysing the situation for threats and stuff, in addition to guessing other people's and his master's intentions. Though I still don't see what's so unrealistically logical about his behaviour in-game. 

Modifié par Hekateras, 20 avril 2011 - 07:39 .

[Caliyhe]

Hekateras wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

Evindell wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

Evindell wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

I love philosophical character debates...

Me too.

Got any more popcorn?

Yes I do

Well, then. I'll just sit back and relax

Indeed

*sits in on the debate/discussion*  more popcorn?

You could do something more useful as well, you know. Like posting that Tangled gif we've tragically forgotten about for the last few pages in our preoccupation.

No thanks. This is more fun

[tsunderes]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Maiafay wrote...

But Fenris has unfailing logic most of the time.  He just sounds too condescending and well-spoken to be an angry runaway slave.

...
Add to that the fact that we don't know what his duties were. Danarius seems like the type who may be well amused by a bodyguard who can pour wine without spilling a drop while holding a philosophical discussion rather than just be good at chopping things up.

This ^

So he arguably has/had the capacity to carry on intellectual and deep conversation as a slave but still did not question his station in life?

How carefully would you have to filter the information your slave absorbed to manage that? o_O

He has been on the run for several years by the time he's introduced. I could argue that perhaps the ability was always there, but while he was under Danarius's thumb it remaind un-tapped. He really had no reason to question his life as a slave till he got a taste of something more. Up until his time with the fog warriors, it was all he knew.

[Helen0rz]

@upsettingshorts

It's just an attempt to come up with answers for things we cannot explain. In the same logic, how do you know 'the magister didn't do it'?

I'm not sure why this matters so mch, because what you think or any of us think about Fenris (stuff not explained in the game) are all speculations until someone confirm them. Again, I still think you're thinking about this way too much (some points you made I mean), and Febris is a character made by someone with his own set of logic and fit his character inside a world made by a group of people with their logic...Whether it made sense to you or not, it did to them when they made the character

[upsettingshorts]

Helen0rz wrote...

@upsettingshorts

It's just an attempt to come up with answers for things we cannot explain. In the same logic, how do you know 'the magister didn't do it'?

...because had they been explained it might have made Fenris more interesting to me?  I mean, the Fog Warriors story was interesting because it gave Fenris more characterization - not because the bloody Fog Warriors were at all interesting.

"He picked up his basketball skills from running into Charles Barkley on his travels" is to me more interesting than "Oh, Fenris also has a sweet jump hook."

Helen0rz wrote...

Whether it made sense to you or not, it did to them when they made the character

I don't doubt this.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 avril 2011 - 07:32 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

nvm

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 20 avril 2011 - 10:42 .

[Helen0rz]

@upsettingshorts

What do you like about Fenris, as a character?

[Tealsie]

Caliyhe wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

Evindell wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

Evindell wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

I love philosophical character debates...

Me too.

Got any more popcorn?

Yes I do

Well, then. I'll just sit back and relax

Indeed

*sits in on the debate/discussion*  more popcorn?

You could do something more useful as well, you know. Like posting that Tangled gif we've tragically forgotten about for the last few pages in our preoccupation.

No thanks. This is more fun

Astrobats ritual
Could I have some popcorn, please?

[Caliyhe]

Tealsie wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

Evindell wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

Evindell wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

I love philosophical character debates...

Me too.

Got any more popcorn?

Yes I do

Well, then. I'll just sit back and relax

Indeed

*sits in on the debate/discussion*  more popcorn?

You could do something more useful as well, you know. Like posting that Tangled gif we've tragically forgotten about for the last few pages in our preoccupation.

No thanks. This is more fun

Astrobats ritual
Could I have some popcorn, please?

[upsettingshorts]

Helen0rz wrote...

@upsettingshorts

What do you like about Fenris, as a character?

Aside from his exposition about Tevinter and Seheron?

Basically the concept of the stoic facade covering up for his deep-seated rage.  His observations about things are usually, in my opinion, pretty spot on - especially with say, the Dalish.  

I also like the idea of having him be a foil for Anders, I just don't think he pulls it off, because he can't match his singular drive and passion.

[Sherbet Lemon]

I've been trying to follow this conversation but I just want to get a quick clarification.

The problem is, essentially, that because Fenris is characterized as someone who is well-spoken, possesses sociological insight and is somewhat reflective his believability as a traumatized former slave is dimished?  In particular, that his iliteracy aids in making this characterization less effective for some and does not illustrate the negative impact of mages in power?

The other issue issue for Fenris seems to center around the question of why would he follow Hawke around?  What place does Fenris have in the story?

[autumnyte]

Hekateras wrote...

Philosophy - yes, my bad. "Hold a convenient conversation" was more along the lines of what I meant. Logic - he still could've learned that during slavery. Like I said, analysing the situation for threats and stuff, in addition to guessing other people's and his master's intentions. Though I still don't see what's so unrealistically logical about his behaviour in-game. 

Hmm. I do think Fenris demonstrates an aptitude for logic. The arguments he puts forth to the Arishok on behalf of the group are certainly well-formulated, and he makes some comments during the DuPuis quest that make him sound like freakin' Sherlock Holmes (that always cracks me up, actually). Even some of his party banters with Sebastian show a logical mind.

But I think it is quite possible for people to possess an innate capacity for logic that is unrelated to their upbringing or any formal education. I think Fenris is just an inherently intelligent person, but I don't think that aspect of him contradicts his storyline or the rest of his character presentation.

If anything, I think the ways in which he often allows emotion to overtake his logical nature, illustrate just how damaged he is.

Modifié par autumnyte, 20 avril 2011 - 07:45 .

[Hekateras]

Pseudocognition wrote...
Instead of waiting around to be ambushed, I guess.

Whee long/run-on sentance.

He's not just waiting around to be ambushed.

At first, he's there to repay Hawke for helping him with the slavers - no more, no less. He's not SURE if he plans to stay in Kirkwall - if you fiddle around with the options in his first conversation at the mansion, he says as much.

Later on, it's easy to see why he stays - as he says, there is strength in numbers after all. He now knows all these people - Hawke at the very least - who, as time goes on, seem more and more likely to back him up when, not if, Danarius finally comes for him.

He has three choices: Stay in Kirkwall and wait for Danarius, go somewhere else and wait for Danarius, or go on the run and keep running.

He's been doing the running thing for free years, he's both sick of living like that and knows that it's far too risky.

So, faced with the choice of facing Danarius in Kirkwall or somewhere else, of course he'd pick Kirkwall, the place where he has sort-of-maybe-friends, over a place where he knows nobody at all.

Modifié par Hekateras, 20 avril 2011 - 07:46 .

[Lasien]

Hekateras wrote...

So... how about it? Elves in DA have lost their immortality, but do they have the same life span and aging rate as humans, or not?

Also, ten years as Danarius's slave before escaping seems too long to me. Dunno why. Maybe it's that, if it were ten years or more, I'd expect him to be even more screwed up by slave mentality than he is - I'd expect him to be practically beyond repair. Going by his in-game personality, I'd give him about five or so years under Danarius, not much more.

But doesn't Fenris say he was bought by Denarius when he was like 2 or somewhere abouts? Also, slave mentality doesn't neccessarily have anything to do with being treated as such. If he had a forceful enough personality, he would be actively fighting his slavery. Plus, it sounded like Denarius treated him more like a pet than a slave.

Also, to whoever it was that said it didn't make sense for him to be educated but illiterate, I would like to point out that he could have been tutored verbally, without the aid of books of any kind. If you were trying to mold someone into the perfect pet/slave/experiment/art object, you might not want them to be able to read and form their own opinions. But at the same time, you would want to show off how smart you were by displaying their intelligence (formed by you), grace (ditto), and beauty (also same).

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Hekateras wrote...

He's not just waiting around to be ambushed.

That's what it seems like he's set himself up for, holed up in that mansion. Aveline points out that people besides the party are aware he lives there, too, so...

[Affably]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Affably wrote...

Who said anything about him having fully developed these before escaping?

The arguments that say he learned these things from the Magister, clearly.

I do imagine he gained perspective as he traveled, starting with the Fog Warriors, but the other things have no obvious explanation other than "oh, he picked that up when he was a slave." 

But considering I started out by essentially implying that his character struck me as having been filled with contradictions that made him better than he ought to be, arguing that he developed these positive character traits while on the run from slave catchers and dealing with cheap hirelings without learning some bad lessons along the way... I'm not sure what raising that particular issue is going to do for your case.  At least with me, anyway. 

Characters being filled with apparent contradictions is one of the primary aspects of writing that makes this game appeal to me.  Merrill, the elf waif full of sweetness, kittens, and light, is a bloodmage.  The healer character becomes a terrorist.  The dwarf helping to head an expedition into ancient dwarven lands actually isn't all that into dwarf ****.  Having apparent contradictions makes the writing and the characters more dynamic to me, not less.  However, that's my own credulity at work, and I own that.

I accept that you find certain particular aspects of the premise to be implausible.  That being said, I'd highly recommend being cautious of phrasing like "make him better than he ought to be."  You're not any kind of authority on what escaped slaves from Tevinter ought to be like.  There's just not enough information to start demarcating limits.

I was not arguing that Fenris learned perspective (if we even agree on what constitutes that knowledge) while on the run specifically, simply that we hadn't begun debating it at all.

[Hekateras]

autumnyte wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

Philosophy - yes, my bad. "Hold a convenient conversation" was more along the lines of what I meant. Logic - he still could've learned that during slavery. Like I said, analysing the situation for threats and stuff, in addition to guessing other people's and his master's intentions. Though I still don't see what's so unrealistically logical about his behaviour in-game. 

Hmm. I do think Fenris demonstrates an aptitude for logic. The arguments he puts forth to the Arishok on behalf of the group are certainly well-formulated, and he makes some comments during the DuPuis quest that make him sound like freakin' Sherlock Holmes (that always cracks me up, actually). Even some of his party banters with Sebastian show a logical mind.

But I think it is quite possible for people to possess an innate capacity for logic that is unrelated to their upbringing or any formal education. I think Fenris is just an inherently intelligent person, but I don't think that aspect of him contradicts his storyline or the rest of his character presentation.

If anything, I think the ways in which he often allows emotion to overtake his logical nature, illustrate just how damaged he is.

+1

I also think the Sherlock Holmes-like analytic abilities do match the idea of a valued bodyguard very well.

I don't think the Qunari thing has that much to do with logic, though. As I said, I think it just shows that he knows the Qun and how they tick really well, knows how to phrase things without ticking them off. It's knowledge and experience, not necessarily Sherlock Holmes-y levels of logic.

[Ryzaki]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

He's not just waiting around to be ambushed.

That's what it seems like he's set himself up for, holed up in that mansion. Aveline points out that people besides the party are aware he lives there, too, so...

I don't think he's holed up in the mansion. He sleeps there but by no means does he spend all his time there.

And I think Fenris knows his trackers well enough to have some safeguards in the house in place (think Light with that pencil lead trick under the door from death note) to see if anyone was in the house. And in that case all he has to do is turn around and head for Hawke's house which isn't far away at all. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 avril 2011 - 07:54 .

[upsettingshorts]

Affably wrote...

Characters being filled with apparent contradictions is one of the primary aspects of writing that makes this game appeal to me.  Merrill, the elf waif full of sweetness, kittens, and light, is a bloodmage.  The healer character becomes a terrorist.  The dwarf helping to head an expedition into ancient dwarven lands actually isn't all that into dwarf ****.  Having apparent contradictions makes the writing and the characters more dynamic to me, not less.  However, that's my own credulity at work, and I own that.

The difference between those examples and the ones I point out with Fenris is the former are thoroughly explained and are big parts of their story and how they integrate into the narrative.

Fenris's contradictions are simply... there.

Affably wrote...

I accept that you find certain particular aspects of the premise to be implausible.  That being said, I'd highly recommend being cautious of phrasing like "make him better than he ought to be."  You're not any kind of authority on what escaped slaves from Tevinter ought to be like.  There's just not enough information to start demarcating limits.

Indeed, and that wasn't really my intent.  Though I worded it poorly.  The reason I spoke in terms of oughts is because I think he ought to be different - in the sense of being worse - if he's going to personally have a significant impact as Anders foil.  Anders, being of course, ten kinds of screwed up.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 avril 2011 - 07:54 .

[Shacary]

learning is all about mimicry and repetition... how does a child learn to tie his shoes? by watching and mimicing the motions and repeating that over and over.... How did the Macaque monkeys learn to wash the mud from their taters? by mimicking one female that did so .... is that not considered learning? it is! the core of learning.
I myself have repeated words i heard adults use, and altho I thoguht i used it in proper context [ as a youngster i mean] It turned out to be the "wrong thing to say". Perhaps he learned thru repetition of saying wrong things to as to what would be " acceptable" to many circles. Diplomancy can be learned as a survival technique, I know to many abused folks that learned how to interpret the " winds" and the best way to avoid bad scenarios.. does it work all the time? no of course not!
Also, anger issues , someone from that walkign on eggshell backgroudn could appear totally stoic with tandem outbreaks of anger memory recall, much situational , but they can also develop clear ideals on WHAT should not be .. opinions values. on the other end of the scale I am reminded of an analogy of a victim of bullying, becoming the WORST bully in the block,
Its a game character but I didnt find any of Fenris's reactions to be out of possibilities. I could recite a catatonic patient that upon breakign from "her" reverie then repeated EVERY word she had heard that entire week, even if it was other peeps conversations. it was eerie,,, never limit the impossible things as being impossible. crap happens.
I am drawn to troubled past characters and as others wrote if there is something there that intrigues and interests I will investigate it more. I this character to be actually one of the best written in Da2. Peeps can disagree, thats what makes the world so sweet.. Diversity not anamosity.

[Hekateras]

Lasien wrote...

But doesn't Fenris say he was bought by Denarius when he was like 2 or somewhere abouts?

That's the first time I've heard of anything like that.

Also, slave mentality doesn't neccessarily have anything to do with being treated as such. If he had a forceful enough personality, he would be actively fighting his slavery. Plus, it sounded like Denarius treated him more like a pet than a slave.

I think you're underestimating the implications of growing up in slavery, then having your  memory wiped, and then being trained into an even more specific type of slave. A forceful personality just doesn't cut it if your entire worldview has been shaped around the irrefutable fact that Magisters rule, slaves obey, and that's the way the world turns.

The pet thing is also... questionable, to say the least. We know what kind of person Danarius is - he sacrificed a child for blood for practically a party trick, he keeps an apprentice who we know has done a similar thing, and he expects Fenris to just fold and submit to him when he does find him. Yes, there is a very definite "pet" vibe there, but that makes it even worse, in a way, when you imagine how such a person would be likely to train their prize guard dog.

Pseudocognition wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

He's not just waiting around to be ambushed.

That's
what it seems like he's set himself up for, holed up in that mansion.
Aveline points out that people besides the party are aware he lives
there, too, so...

You did read the rest of what I wrote, right?  Yes, he is, sort, of waiting around to be ambushed. But he has perfectly valid reasons to be doing that.

Upsettingshorts wrote...


The difference between those
examples and the ones I point out with Fenris is the former are
thoroughly explained and are big parts of their story and how they
integrate into the narrative.

Fenris's contradictions are simply... there.

Which of the contradictions still haven't been explained away, then?

Modifié par Hekateras, 20 avril 2011 - 08:02 .

[Dr. Doctor]

My theory on Fenris' intellect is that despite being power-crazed practicioners of blood magic Danarius and his cohorts are still techically scholars. Considering that Fenris served as bodyguard, butler, and conversation piece for Danarius it is quite possible that he picked up a couple things here and there.

I mean, Magisters must talk about other things besides crushing their enemies, seeing them driven before them, and the lamentations of their women. On the whole knowlege about the Qun subject, Tevinters been at war with the Qunari for the past few centuries. Being in such constant contact means that the Magisters and their armies must know a thing or two about how their enemy ticks. Given that Danarius has fought on Seheron with Fenris its understandable that he learned a thing or two about how the Qunari work so that his master wouldn't get killed by that stupid sphere-of-lightning thing that Qunari mages can do.

[Shacary]

Listen to what the Doctor says teehee right on really imo

[Hekateras]

Ginghis Khan reference for the win, Dr. Doctor.

Also, +1. I really don't see any contradictions there. Curiosities, certainly, but nothing implausible if you think about it. Do I wish his backstory and lifestyle as a slave had been elaborated on? Sure. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work as it is now.

Danarius also seems like the type to ramble and monologue at people. At, not to. Though, as his bodyguard, it was probably inevitable that Fenris had some actual conversations with him at some point, about defenses and risk of assassination if nothing else.

Modifié par Hekateras, 20 avril 2011 - 08:05 .

[Maiafay]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

...so that his master wouldn't get killed by that stupid sphere-of-lightning thing that Qunari mages can do.

I hate that thing. And that blood spell of doom from blood mages and demons.