55380 réponses à ce sujet

[Laurelinde]

Just bumping cos it took me longer to edit my post than I expected, I will stop flapping around and mucking up the thread and bid all you lovelies a good night and pleasant lyrium-tattooed dreams.

[tankgirly]

night, laurelinde



Astrobats pagely ritual

[Helen0rz]

May I also add that Anders 'attempted' to lead a revolution because of Justice? Without that spirit he wouldve never done that, so I wouldn't make him all noble all of a sudden because he writes manifesos and whatnot. And he takes this very personally, it was never about him actually freeingthe mages, but justifying his actions with doing 'what's right' in his head. It was an obsession with a noble cause behind it, bu mainly obsession. He whines too, but isn't that what half of the companions do? The only leading he was doing was leading himself down to the path of insanity. He had a noble intention, but that wasnt what he did.

I'm just saying there's no point in comparing him with Fenris; they're polar opposite and the problems they have are too different to even compare.

[tigrina]

Tealsie wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
No matter how much Fenris irritates me (mostly because he's right.) I can't really see doing that canonically. It's too cruel. And it does help that pretty much everyone in a party gives a "WTF?" reaction for doing it. 

Anders is smug and overjoyed if you hand Fenris over.  One of the times I wanted to spin around smack him upside the head.
Merrill probably has the best reaction to that. If I remember correctly, she has a couple wonder begging/pleading lines.

That makes sense, from Merrill I suppose, but this is good to know. +10 friendship

/needs to try out more 'for science'

[lizzbee]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
His demeanor is only part of the reason he fails to match Anders, part of it is his focus on his own situation and his own problems.  Anders is out there writing manifestos and leading a revolution Fenris ought to despise the very idea of, and he does... what, about it?  Complain occasionally?  

Well, I'd say Anders was inciting revolution, rather than leading one.  Fenris, at least during Act 3, appears to be doing some background work in helping to destroy slavers:

Aveline: Thank you for that tip, Fenris.

Fenris: You caught them, then?

Aveline: Yes—a whole nest of slave runners working out of the Undercity.

Fenris: I imagine you imprisoned them?

Aveline: Sadly, they never made it to prison.

Fenris: You always know how to make me smile, Aveline.


In short, he's actually the perfect foil, acting in the background in a subtle manner to bring about gradual change, vs. Anders and his open, abrupt actions.

[tankgirly]

by Lily-girl414


Change to linky for obvious R18 reason.

Modifié par tankgirly, 20 avril 2011 - 10:23 .

[Hekateras]

tankgirly wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

tsunderes wrote...

This can be paired with his reaction to siding with the mages in the final battle. That it's wrong but he'll stand by you. Fenris's loyalty to Hawke is absolute (if you choose to build the relationship properly that is), whether it controdicts his personal opinions or not (also he's not an activist like Anders, that would draw too much attention to himself, I believe. That and he's not really the leader type.)  Betraying Hawkes friends would be the equivilent of betraying Hawke her/himself.

It does help that Fenris isn't obsessed with anything other than killing those who enslaved him. Once that's done he kind of mellows out. He has no great cause. I like that about him. 

This.

Thirded.

I don't think he was meant to have the opposite equivalent of Anders's role. However, the two do work very well as a foil to each other, in the sense of highlighting each other's qualities. They have different stances and also go about things differently. Anders becomes obsessed with his cause to the point of ignoring or rationalising away all arguments against it, betraying his friends and killing innocents. Fenris mellows out about his views to the point of genuinely respecting certain mages, restricts his anti-mage tendencies to criticism and harsh words, defending mages in general and developing absolute loyalty to Hawke (in other words, choosing friends over principles, which is not in and of itself a good thing, but certainly a polar opposite of what Anders does).

They are a good foil to each other. They make each other's qualities more apparent than they would be otherwise. That's what a foil means - remember that the term came originally from the literal tinfoil placed beneath gemstones to make them shine more brightly. That they don't have equivalent roles in the main plot doesn't diminish that.

And yeah, Anders is scary for his smug reaction to you turning Fenris over to Danarius... O_O But as I've said in the past, it fits perfectly with how far gone he is. By that point, either you're with him or you're against him. A sort of foreshadowing for Elthina, one could say.

Modifié par Hekateras, 20 avril 2011 - 10:27 .

[Helen0rz]

^THIS!!

[upsettingshorts]

lizzbee wrote...

In short, he's actually the perfect foil, acting in the background in a subtle manner to bring about gradual change, vs. Anders and his open, abrupt actions.

Sure, in the sense that he's passive and ineffective and undermined by his own particular character quirks - yes, in that sense he's the "perfect" foil.

Not to mention that example describes slavers... not mages.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 avril 2011 - 10:49 .

[Heidenreich]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

lizzbee wrote...

In short, he's actually the perfect foil, acting in the background in a subtle manner to bring about gradual change, vs. Anders and his open, abrupt actions.

Sure, in the sense that he's passive and ineffective and undermined by his own particular character quirks - yes, in that sense he's the "perfect" foil.

Not to mention that example describes slavers... not mages.

*smells a troll in disguise!*

Fenris's issues aren't with mages. He dislikes mages, believes them to be dangerous, and thinks Anders is a crazy tool-bag full of potentially explody doom (and truthfully, he is!), but Fenris's issue IS slavery.

Anders thinks mages are slaves. They're not. They're prisoners. Fenris just likes to oh-so-readily point that out.

[tankgirly]

@Heidenreich, don't worry, I assure you Upsettingshorts isn't a troll.

Do continue.

*put another bag of popcorn in the microwave*

[Heidenreich]

tankgirly wrote...

@Heidenreich, don't worry, I assure you Upsettingshorts isn't a troll.

Do continue.

*put another bag of popcorn in the microwave*

*shifty eyes*
Maybe its me, then!

Also, I want some popcorn!

[upsettingshorts]

Heidenreich wrote...

*smells a troll in disguise!*

I'm shocked it took someone that long to paint me with that brush.  Happens all time.  

tankgirly wrote...

@Heidenreich, don't worry, I assure you Upsettingshorts isn't a troll.

Yay!

Heidenreich wrote...

Fenris's issues aren't with mages. He dislikes mages, believes them to be dangerous, and thinks Anders is a crazy tool-bag full of potentially explody doom (and truthfully, he is!), but Fenris's issue IS slavery.

Then he has even less to do with the mainplot than I imagined.  Considering while slavers certainly attempt to do business in Kirkwall slavery is already illegal there, and most people in the Free Marches consider it abhorent.

I'd rather go with the idea that he hates mages and is a foil to Anders because it gives Fenris a purpose in Dragon Age 2 and not his own story about himself and how crappy Tevinter is and how big of a jerk Danarius is.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 avril 2011 - 11:00 .

[Ryzaki]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

lizzbee wrote...

In short, he's actually the perfect foil, acting in the background in a subtle manner to bring about gradual change, vs. Anders and his open, abrupt actions.

Sure, in the sense that he's passive and ineffective and undermined by his own particular character quirks - yes, in that sense he's the "perfect" foil.

Not to mention that example describes slavers... not mages.

And unlike Anders, Fenris doesn't just focus on the mage/templar issue without thinking of anything else. Anders is obsessed the other characters constantly say so. "on and on about the mages plight." and so on. Fenris has no such obsession except with revenge. That's his obsession. He doesn't hate all mages. He hates the mages that gave him the lyrium markings and caused him suffering. 

As for passive and ineffective. Why do you say that? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 avril 2011 - 11:02 .

[Annarl]

tigrina wrote...

Tealsie wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
No matter how much Fenris irritates me (mostly because he's right.) I can't really see doing that canonically. It's too cruel. And it does help that pretty much everyone in a party gives a "WTF?" reaction for doing it. 

Anders is smug and overjoyed if you hand Fenris over.  One of the times I wanted to spin around smack him upside the head.
Merrill probably has the best reaction to that. If I remember correctly, she has a couple wonder begging/pleading lines.

That makes sense, from Merrill I suppose, but this is good to know. +10 friendship

/needs to try out more 'for science'

I did this once and only once( giving Fenris back) to see what would happen.  I was shocked by Anders reaction.  He really is smug and overjoyed to hand him over. (that's a very good description)  I couldn't believe how willing he was to go along with it.  I of course re load when it was done and promptly took a shower to get the evil behind my ears.  I could never do that scene again.

Modifié par omearaee, 20 avril 2011 - 11:07 .

[Heidenreich]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

*smells a troll in disguise!*

I'm shocked it took someone that long to paint me with that brush.  Happens all time.  

tankgirly wrote...

@Heidenreich, don't worry, I assure you Upsettingshorts isn't a troll.

Yay!

Heidenreich wrote...

Fenris's issues aren't with mages. He dislikes mages, believes them to be dangerous, and thinks Anders is a crazy tool-bag full of potentially explody doom (and truthfully, he is!), but Fenris's issue IS slavery.

Then he has even less to do with the mainplot than I imagined.  Considering while slavers certainly attempt to do business in Kirkwall slavery is already illegal there, and most people in the Free Marches consider it abhorent.

I'd rather go with the idea that he hates mages and is a foil to Anders because it gives Fenris a purpose in Dragon Age 2 and not his own story about himself and how crappy Tevinter is and how big of a jerk Danarius is.

To be fair, I came into the conversation at the end, haven't read back, and am sort of half asleep! Also, I'm in agreement that Fen actually doesn't have huge amounts to do with the main storyline. Nether does, say, Aveline, or Isabela, other then a bit here and there.

He does, however, provide a nice counterpoint to "OMG MAGES" with his whole "no, mages really aren't slaves. I was a slave. I'm totally not seeing your point, Anders. Mages are dangerous. They're prisoners, you crazy mage-man-thing-you".. thing.

I need more coffee. Also, tank is going to share her popcorn. Or I will cry.

[Caliyhe]

Upsettingshorts is not a troll. He is the heroic critic!

Please do continue your wonderful criticisms, they are refreshing to see as I am tired of seeing actual trolls on forums.

[upsettingshorts]

Ryzaki wrote...

And unlike Anders, Fenris doesn't just focus on the mage/templar issue without thinking of anything else.

As for passive and ineffective. Why do you say that? 

Indeed not, and that's why I kind of find myself demanding more from Fenris to make up for the fact that Anders is so single minded.  I mean, if we take all of the companions we can get in DA2, there are few that combined can sort of represent a foil for him - like Aveline representing real mortal justice, Merrill on the nature of all spirits being dangerous, Fenris on the destructive power of mages, Sebastian on well the Chantry view, etc.  Fenris' voice is the strongest because he comes from a world where mages rule and has felt firsthand their cruel wrath.  He explodes at mages abusing their power and at slavery all the time, yet seems to save biting (but toothless) sarcasm for Anders.  

I honestly would have welcomed something like a Miranda/Jack or Tali/Legion moment between those two, yet it never came.  I assume this is because Fenris is too caught up in his own problems to see beyond what's immediately infront of him.  While this makes some sense given his character, it leads to my other problem with him - and it's the other side of the same coin.  If Fenris is not meant to be an effective foil to Anders... what's the point of Fenris being in Dragon Age 2 and not... some other game?  That isn't to say his character is bad he just seems out of place.  

Heidenreich wrote...

To be fair, I came into the
conversation at the end, haven't read back, and am sort of half asleep!
Also, I'm in agreement that Fen actually doesn't have huge amounts to do
with the main storyline. Nether does, say, Aveline, or Isabela, other
then a bit here and there.

Aveline's link is subtle, but it is minor and I won't elaborate as if to defend it.  Suffice to say, I believe she serves a foil for Hawke.  Similar to Jacob in Mass Effect 2 when not romanced, though I think I appreciate him more than the BSN at large.

Isabela however has a massive impact.  So much so that if we were to - for the sake of argument -  modify Fenris' personal story to match it, then Kirkwall would have to have been besieged by Danarius and his army, until things reach a boiling point where he seizes the Keep and beheads the Viscount, demanding to have his property returned.

After Act 2 though Isabela is just there, sure.  But then so is Varric really, if he wasn't equally important as the narrator than his big role in the story was getting Hawke into the Deep Roads.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 avril 2011 - 11:09 .

[lizzbee]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Sure, in the sense that he's passive and ineffective and undermined by his own particular character quirks - yes, in that sense he's the "perfect" foil.

Not to mention that example describes slavers... not mages.

Ineffective?  He helped wipe out a slaver ring.  He may hate magic, but what he hates most about it is that it leads mages to crave power.  And eventually to enslave others with it.  I'd say that magic is but a symptom of what really irks him, which is why he's not outright hostile to every mage and doesn't go on murderous rampages every time he sees a mage.  Slavery is what affronts him, not magic, per se.  The Circle and the Templars are necessary, because they keep mages from seeking to rule and enslave all of Thedas.  It's also why he likely tolerates the mages who are with Hawke, or Hawke him/herself if (s)he is a mage, beyond his personal loyalty to Hawke.  His boon for taking on his lyrium markings was to free his mother and sister from slavery, not magic itself.

IMHO, he has a personal crusade.  It just isn't against mages and magic as you seem to believe.

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

*Just finished reading all of the posts.*

I-...

I think--...

I think I'm just going to stay out of this. *Pops bag of popcorn and begins to munch on it as I read the incoming posts* 

[Annarl]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Then he has even less to do with the mainplot than I imagined.  Considering while slavers certainly attempt to do business in Kirkwall slavery is already illegal there, and most people in the Free Marches consider it abhorent.

I'd rather go with the idea that he hates mages and is a foil to Anders because it gives Fenris a purpose in Dragon Age 2 and not his own story about himself and how crappy Tevinter is and how big of a jerk Danarius is.

You could break down any of the companions with a broad sweeping statement of their purpose.  

Modifié par omearaee, 20 avril 2011 - 11:08 .

[Ryzaki]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Indeed not, and that's why I kind of find myself demanding more from Fenris to make up for the fact that Anders is so single minded.  I mean, if we take all of the companions we can get in DA2, there are few that combined can sort of represent a foil for him - like Aveline representing real mortal justice, Merrill on the nature of all spirits being dangerous, Fenris on the destructive power of mages, Sebastian on well the Chantry view, etc.  Fenris' voice is the strongest because he comes from a world where mages rule and has felt firsthand their cruel wrath.  He explodes at mages abusing their power and at slavery all the time, yet seems to save biting (but toothless) sarcasm for Anders.  

I honestly would have welcomed something like a Miranda/Jack or Tali/Legion moment between those two, yet it never came.  I assume this is because Fenris is too caught up in his own problems to see beyond what's immediately infront of him.  While this makes some sense given his character, it leads to my other problem with him - and it's the other side of the same coin.  If Fenris is not meant to be an effective foil to Anders... what's the point of Fenris being in Dragon Age 2 and not... some other game?  That isn't to say his character is bad he just seems out of place. 

Why does he need to be a foil to Anders to be an interesting character? Who is Isabela a foil for? Aveline? Merrill? 

Frankly if he was a perfect foil to Anders (sharing that like obsession with mages/templars) he would bore me. I think he's just fine.

And he's in the game because he offers an insight to the Tevinter Imperium. And because the devs thought he would be an interesting character. He doesn't need to have a fight with Anders to belong in the plot.

Edit: I'm not going to agree. Needlessto say I don't see Anders asbeing a statement on templars/mages as much as how corruption and obsession can affect a person.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 avril 2011 - 11:11 .

[upsettingshorts]

omearaee wrote...

You could break down any of the companions with a broad sweeping statement of their purpose. 

That is more or less precisely what I'm doing.  And I can't come up with a purpose for Fenris if it isn't to be a foil to Anders. 

[Sherbet Lemon]

Ryzaki wrote...
And I never saw Fenris as a foil for Anders.

This is kind of where I am at as well.

I don't want to discuss whether or not Hawke is integral to what happens in Kirkwall as that opens up an entirely different can of worms, but making Fenris the foil to Anders gives Anders a level of importance that I am uncomfortable with doing (at least in a video game such as this where we are talking about player agency and such).  Anders certainly is the catalyst for the end.  He triggers it, but it is Hawke who ends by either siding with the templars or mages.  You can argue whether or not this works for you, and I don't have an opinion either way, but I think a foil is traditionally the opposite of the protaganist.  In this instance a literary term would not apply quite so well.

I see them as two ways to look at the argument.  Fenris giving you insight into the Tevinter Imperium (i.e. what happens when mages rule) and Anders giving you his version of trauma via his mental breakdown. Although the problem for me (be it friendship or rivalry) with Anders is always the decision that happens pre-game.  Anders's action to merge with Justice kind of diminishes my ability to take him seriously.  The argument he makes, that mages aren't dangerous is made irrelevant by the fact that he IS dangerous (this will lead to some interesting roleplay when I create my canon character Hawke as she's very intuitive and very observant so I don't know how this play through is going to work because let's face it, Hawke can be sort of...um...thick headed at times).  It is that sort irony that leads me to think that Fenris isn't a foil.  Anders is a foil for himself. 
I don't know if that makes sense or if I'm just talking out of my rear again. :innocent:

[Heidenreich]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

omearaee wrote...

You could break down any of the companions with a broad sweeping statement of their purpose. 

That is more or less precisely what I'm doing.  And I can't come up with a purpose for Fenris if it isn't to be a foil to Anders. 

Mayyyyyyyyyyyyyyybe his story is not done, or that at the end of the day, he can't bring himself to be full-hearted-angry at him because even FENRIS see's that Anders has good intentions (.. that pave the way to the void, as it were.)