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[upsettingshorts]

Ryzaki wrote...

Why does he need to be a foil to Anders to be an interesting character? Who is Isabela a foil for? Aveline? Merrill?

Not everyone needs to be a foil to another character, no.  All I'm saying is this, basically:

I want all characters to have a purpose.
Almost all of them, at least in my mind, do.
Fenris appears to have no purpose, unless he is a foil for Anders.
If he is meant to be a foil for Anders, he isn't particularly effective.
If he isn't meant to be a foil for Anders, what is he doing in Dragon Age 2?

Ryzaki wrote...

And he's in the game because he offers an
insight to the Tevinter Imperium. And because the devs thought he would
be an interesting character. He doesn't need to have a fight with Anders
to belong in the plot.

Exposition bot would be another purpose, sure.  But that's not very interesting, is it?  I mean, Tali was a walking Codex Entry in Mass Effect 1 - and I...well, people loved her too I suppose.  I didn't but that would explain my attitude wouldn't it?

Heidenreich wrote...

Mayyyyyyyyyyyyyyybe his story is not done

A distinct possibility.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 avril 2011 - 11:14 .

[Annarl]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

omearaee wrote...

You could break down any of the companions with a broad sweeping statement of their purpose. 

That is more or less precisely what I'm doing.  And I can't come up with a purpose for Fenris if it isn't to be a foil to Anders. 

Okay, playing along, I would say he is there as a personal reminder of the dangers of letting mages rule. Or representing the potential dark side of magic and letting mages go free.  Rather than a foil for Anders.  Especially since the player may not use Anders and Fenris together.  Then his acting as a foil is ineffective.

Modifié par omearaee, 20 avril 2011 - 11:16 .

[lizzbee]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


If he isn't meant to be a foil for Anders, what is he doing in Dragon Age 2?

Being awesome.

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If he isn't meant to be a foil for Anders, what is he doing in Dragon Age 2?

Leaving hooks for Dragon Age ___ perhaps...

[upsettingshorts]

lizzbee wrote...
Being awesome.

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

So he is Thane, then?

[Ryzaki]

Eh. *shrugs* We don't agree. I find him just fine as insight to the Tevinter Imperium. And I really don't think he needs to be Anders foil to make sense in game.

*grabs some popcorn and sits on sidelines*

And he at least makes more sense than Jack. Oh yes I'm gonna let the psychotic criminal run around unchecked on board the ship of people she hates. That's perfect sense.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 avril 2011 - 11:16 .

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

@ Shorts

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. 

Modifié par Madame Rose Crimsynn, 20 avril 2011 - 11:16 .

[lizzbee]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So he is Thane, then?

That's probably why I adore him so much

Anyway, since you didn't address my other point, which was that you seem to have misunderstood Fenris' central personal crusade, I, um, am backing out of the debate for a bit.

[Tealsie]

Village Idiot wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
And I never saw Fenris as a foil for Anders.

This is kind of where I am at as well.

I don't want to discuss whether or not Hawke is integral to what happens in Kirkwall as that opens up an entirely different can of worms, but making Fenris the foil to Anders gives Anders a level of importance that I am uncomfortable with doing (at least in a video game such as this where we are talking about player agency and such).  Anders certainly is the catalyst for the end.  He triggers it, but it is Hawke who ends by either siding with the templars or mages.  You can argue whether or not this works for you, and I don't have an opinion either way, but I think a foil is traditionally the opposite of the protaganist.  In this instance a literary term would not apply quite so well.

I see them as two ways to look at the argument.  Fenris giving you insight into the Tevinter Imperium (i.e. what happens when mages rule) and Anders giving you his version of trauma via his mental breakdown. Although the problem for me (be it friendship or rivalry) with Anders is always the decision that happens pre-game.  Anders's action to merge with Justice kind of diminishes my ability to take him seriously.  The argument he makes, that mages aren't dangerous is made irrelevant by the fact that he IS dangerous (this will lead to some interesting roleplay when I create my canon character Hawke as she's very intuitive and very observant so I don't know how this play through is going to work because let's face it, Hawke can be sort of...um...thick headed at times).  It is that sort irony that leads me to think that Fenris isn't a foil.  Anders is a foil for himself. 
I don't know if that makes sense or if I'm just talking out of my rear again. :innocent:

Makes sense to me.
Whatever other purpose Fenris has/was supposed to have/whatever, he also acts as a wonderful balance. With all the other companions, you have all different shades/views of the argument(mages vs templars)... except for someone who is more anti-mage(he's not completely anti, but pretty much...). He fills in that spot.

...anyone else want to hug Varric to death at the end, when you ask for everyone's opinion on what to do with Anders... Varric just says "I think I'm sick of mages and templars".
You and me both, bud.

[upsettingshorts]

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh. *shrugs* We don't agree. I find him just fine as insight to the Tevinter Imperium. And I really don't think he needs to be Anders foil to make sense in game. 

Well I don't think he needs to be either.  What I want is a purpose.  If that purpose is "foil to Anders" that's just my best theory at the moment.  If he's "Tevinter/Seheron exposition bot" that works too, but it's not very interesting to me.

If it's "be awesome" then he's Thane.  Who was awesome, but utterly superflous.

I'm not against a better purpose for Fenris being put forward, I'm really not.  I mean, I'll challenge it and that may come off as if I'm hostile to any position other than my own but I'd just like it to be a good enough purpose to stand up to scrutiny.  If it is, then it can only improve my opinion of the character and his role in DA2.  If all that makes sense.

lizzbee wrote...

Anyway, since you didn't address my other point, which was that you seem to have misunderstood Fenris' central
personal crusade, I, um, am backing out of the debate for a bit.

I get it, I'm just not sure what it accomplishes.  There are - as I said earlier in the discussion - a lot of personal stories in DA2.  Tons of them, deeply personal ones.  What is what happens to Fenris and his life of trying to deal with it more significant in of itself than say, Thrask's?

Ryzaki wrote...

And he at least makes more sense than Jack. Oh yes I'm gonna let the psychotic criminal run around unchecked on board the ship of people she hates. That's perfect sense.

Jack is at least one of the most powerful Biotics in the galaxy - supposedly - and has a unique role to fill on the Suicide Mission that only one other party member is fulfilling capably.  

Granted I think there are too many companions in ME2 so my standard for "do they have a purpose" in that game is... lower.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 avril 2011 - 11:22 .

[lizzbee]

Tealsie wrote...

...anyone else want to hug Varric to death at the end, when you ask for everyone's opinion on what to do with Anders... Varric just says "I think I'm sick of mages and templars".
You and me both, bud.

I'd gladly do something else to Varric to ensure his death, but that was one of the few moments I could stand his character   Or maybe just his VO-- can't say much for the character himself.

[Ryzaki]

I love Varric and yeah I wanted to just take Varric and the rest of the crew and head on Isabela's boat somewhere. Maybe if Anders was on the rivalrypath I'd drag him to Tevinter to see if they could yank Justice out of him.

[Heidenreich]

lizzbee wrote...

Tealsie wrote...

...anyone else want to hug Varric to death at the end, when you ask for everyone's opinion on what to do with Anders... Varric just says "I think I'm sick of mages and templars".
You and me both, bud.

I'd gladly do something else to Varric to ensure his death, but that was one of the few moments I could stand his character   Or maybe just his VO-- can't say much for the character himself.

WHAT IS THIS, I DON'T EVEN..



SOMEONE FIX IT. FIX IT FIX IT. HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE VARRIC!? :crying::crying::crying:

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I get it, I'm just not sure what it accomplishes.  There are - as I said earlier in the discussion - a lot of personal stories in DA2.  Tons of them, deeply personal ones.  What is what happens to Fenris and his life of trying to deal with it more significant in of itself than say, Thrask's?

Thrask or someone like him might have made an excellent companion. Insight into the Templars, personal tragedy with his daughter turning into an Abomination under duress, pro-circle...

[mellifera]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If he isn't meant to be a foil for Anders, what is he doing in Dragon Age 2?

Leaving hooks for Dragon Age ___ perhaps...

Dragon Age: Fenris.

60 hours of sitting in a dirty room and drinking wine.

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

Heidenreich wrote...

lizzbee wrote...

Tealsie wrote...

...anyone else want to hug Varric to death at the end, when you ask for everyone's opinion on what to do with Anders... Varric just says "I think I'm sick of mages and templars".
You and me both, bud.

I'd gladly do something else to Varric to ensure his death, but that was one of the few moments I could stand his character   Or maybe just his VO-- can't say much for the character himself.

WHAT IS THIS, I DON'T EVEN..



SOMEONE FIX IT. FIX IT FIX IT. HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE VARRIC!? :crying::crying::crying:

*Comes off of sidelines with a toolbox* Hmm... let's see here...

*Pulls out duct-tape, silicone, super-glue, screws and a screwdriver, nails, and a hammer from the box* If these things can't fix it, nothing can! 

[autumnyte]

This is an interesting conversation, because it's made me realize that one of the things I like most about Fenris is precisely that he doesn't have some big, fateful over-arching purpose. In the end, he's really just a dude with issues, trying to get by and figure out his future.

I tend to see most of my Hawkes the same light--they aren't angling for a spot in politics, fame or fortune--they are just living their lives and getting swept up in circumstances largely out of their control. For me, it's nice to have a LI along for the ride who is kind of in the same boat.

I'm drawn to Isabella for similar reasons.

Modifié par autumnyte, 20 avril 2011 - 11:27 .

[Tealsie]

yukidama wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If he isn't meant to be a foil for Anders, what is he doing in Dragon Age 2?

Leaving hooks for Dragon Age ___ perhaps...

Dragon Age: Fenris.

60 hours of sitting in a dirty room and drinking wine.

And dancing.
And being a mercenary, occassionaly.
And wooing Hawke with puppy eyes.

[Ryzaki]

yukidama wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If he isn't meant to be a foil for Anders, what is he doing in Dragon Age 2?

Leaving hooks for Dragon Age ___ perhaps...

Dragon Age: Fenris.

60 hours of sitting in a dirty room and drinking wine.

Don't forget the 7 year old corpses.

[lizzbee]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I get it, I'm just not sure what it accomplishes.  There are - as I said earlier in the discussion - a lot of personal stories in DA2.  Tons of them, deeply personal ones.  What is what happens to Fenris and his life of trying to deal with it more significant in of itself than say, Thrask's?

He provides a perspective that seems to be lacking in most of the characters.  He gives you a personal understanding of magic from someone who has paid for its ravages in the flesh, while most of the others do so out of either ignorance (Aveline, Isabela) or what they are (Merrill, Bethany, Anders).  He also gives you a sense of why the Chantry does what it does, and that it has real reasons for "oppressing" mages (quotes are purely to emphasize what most people on these boards say about the Chantry and the Circle), not just dogma.

[mellifera]

Tealsie wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If he isn't meant to be a foil for Anders, what is he doing in Dragon Age 2?

Leaving hooks for Dragon Age ___ perhaps...

Dragon Age: Fenris.

60 hours of sitting in a dirty room and drinking wine.

And dancing.
And being a mercenary, occassionaly.
And wooing Hawke with puppy eyes.

It's like The Sims Medieval, except somehow more boring

[upsettingshorts]

autumnyte wrote...

This is an interesting conversation, because it's made me realize that one of the things I like most about Fenris is precisely that he doesn't have some big, fateful over-arching purpose. In the end, he's really just a dude with issues, trying to get by and figure out his future.

Isabela doesn't have a big over-arching purpose in terms of her character.  But her selfishness and shortsightedness causes the Qunari crisis that Hawke has to deal with and vaults him/her to Champion.  Thus her "purpose" is to provide a reason for those events to happen.  

[lizzbee]

Heidenreich wrote...
WHAT IS THIS, I DON'T EVEN..



SOMEONE FIX IT. FIX IT FIX IT. HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE VARRIC!? :crying::crying::crying:

You could say the same for those that don't like Fenris

Anyway, I just despise his voice actor.  That voice makes my spine tremble and gut lurch, like he's going to scam me out of something if I turn my back.  Bleh, smarmy.  Don't mind me-- I'm in the clear minority, obviously.  I can't say much about the character.  A different VO, and I might change my mind.  Don't know.

[MelRedux]

yukidama wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If he isn't meant to be a foil for Anders, what is he doing in Dragon Age 2?

Leaving hooks for Dragon Age ___ perhaps...

Dragon Age: Fenris.

60 hours of sitting in a dirty room and drinking wine.

BEST. GAME. EVER.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I get it, I'm just not sure what it accomplishes.  There are - as I said earlier in the discussion - a lot of personal stories in DA2.  Tons of them, deeply personal ones.  What is what happens to Fenris and his life of trying to deal with it more significant in of itself than say, Thrask's?

Thrask or someone like him might have made an excellent companion. Insight into the Templars, personal tragedy with his daughter turning into an Abomination under duress, pro-circle...

Thrask would have been valuable, but I would argue that Fenris presents the Imperium as it is.  Anders's basic argument is that the mages should be free, that their oppression is unjust.  Fenris comes from the only place (I think?) where mages are free.  In fact they're not only free, they rule.  They have governing power of themselves and others.  Fenris represents the "what could be" to Anders's "how about we get the mages some freedoms." 

It's the evidence we have for a potentially understanding what could happen if mages are given freedom.  This view is further legitimized by the many encounters Hawke and company have as they run into a good amount of corrupt blood mages. 

At least that's how I've come to see it.