55380 réponses à ce sujet

[Nyreen]

autumnyte wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I think the problem with Fenris is that he does a lot of talking and very little "doing" or "feeling" to actually reflect the impact it had on him He says a lot of things about mages and the Imperium, but he's so... well-adjusted, considering.

I'd say that the fact that he squats in a run-down, filthy mansion for almost a decade is an indication of how damaged he is from that experience. He never rearranges so much as a chair, or repairs the broken floor tiles, or even removes the freakin' corpses. He never makes it his home. I find him to be quietly broken in a lot of ways like that. 

I think that was just laziness on the dev's part.  Didn't feel like editing the house. 

[Heidenreich]

lizzbee wrote...

yoshibb wrote...
Had Hawke not been there, Fenris might've turned into a hate filled machine blowing up circles because "MAGES!!" If he'd survived the slave hunters of course. 

I'm not sure I'd necessarily agree with that.  The Circles are there and serving their purpose, as are the Templars.  Fenris seems nothing if not pragmatic.  I can see Fenris turning into The Apostate Avenger, though, and whacking escapees from the Circle.

SOMEONE DRAW THIS. FENRIS IN TIGHTS WITH A CAPE. PERHAPS UNDERPANTS ON THE OUTSIDE.


DO IT RIGHT NOW 

[Tealsie]

Celestina wrote...

These pictures of Fenris make my lyrium breasts sore.

Is that... a good thing?

[lizzbee]

Heidenreich wrote...

SOMEONE DRAW THIS. FENRIS IN TIGHTS WITH A CAPE. PERHAPS UNDERPANTS ON THE OUTSIDE.


DO IT RIGHT NOW 

I'd pay money to see this.  Say a sovereign or two?

[Hekateras]

ipgd wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

Does he have to be a foil for Anders or can he simply represent the different viewpoint, the anti mage viewpoint?

I think the problem with Fenris is that he does a lot of talking and very little "doing" or "feeling" to actually reflect the impact it had on him He says a lot of things about mages and the Imperium, but he's so... well-adjusted, considering.

Well-adjusted? Eh, what? XD

He has temper issues and blows up at people and goes on about magic. He hates being touched. His way of encouraging  mages to be stronger is insulting them to provoke them into proving him wrong. He has no social life outside of - eventually - occasionally getting together with the gang for cards and such. Six years after meeting Hawke & Co., he still isn't sure if they're friends with him. He's paranoid, assumes the worst in a situation and the worst in people. Oh, and he doesn't trust people enough to have been in a relationship since his escape until years later, where that "relationship" (if Hawke doesn't romance him) is limited to booty calls with Isabela.

Sure, he isn't a gibbering, sobbing wreck who can't sleep for nightmares (as far as we know). He's not well-adjusted either, though.

Modifié par Hekateras, 21 avril 2011 - 12:14 .

[yoshibb]

lizzbee wrote...

yoshibb wrote...
Had Hawke not been there, Fenris might've turned into a hate filled machine blowing up circles because "MAGES!!" If he'd survived the slave hunters of course. 

I'm not sure I'd necessarily agree with that.  The Circles are there and serving their purpose, as are the Templars.  Fenris seems nothing if not pragmatic.  I can see Fenris turning into The Apostate Avenger, though, and whacking escapees from the Circle.

Yeah, you're probably right, I was just thinking of something with a lot of mages in it and the Circle just came to mind. 

[upsettingshorts]

Heidenreich wrote...

SOMEONE DRAW THIS. FENRIS IN TIGHTS WITH A CAPE. PERHAPS UNDERPANTS ON THE OUTSIDE.


DO IT RIGHT NOW 

I'd skip the tights with outside underpants and just go with upsetting shorts myself.  The artists could take it as an opportunity to draw lyrium markings way up his thighs.  The shorts being so upsettingly short.  Like Lieutenant Dangle.

[Helen0rz]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Helen0rz wrote...

So...essentially, what we believe is his pupose in game is not good enough of a "purpose" for you?

I haven't heard too many theories about what his purpose is. 

Mine is "foil to Anders."
There's also "exposition bot."
And "he has his own personal story."

I have issues with all of them.  But I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

Helen0rz wrote...

Because essentially you can say the same about Aveline and Merrill, or all companions really if you replace them with bots (but not as your companions).

Aveline ehh... I'll leave that one aside for now.  Generally though I think she's Hawke's link to Ferelden, and the moral compass of the party.  But that's a hard sell for anyone who wouldn't already be nodding along in agreement.

Merrill's questline involves the fate of the Dalish clan nearby.  That at least involves some people beyond herself.  People you interact with on several occasions.

Helen0rz wrote...

I think you cannot accept reasonings such as "introduction to the Tevinter Imporium, where mages are actually bad unlike the ones in Ferelden Circle", which I believe that's his purpose (or one of them)

I DO "accept" it, I just personally don't find it very interesting.  Doesn't mean I'm on a crusade to demand other people also find it boring that a character is being used as a walking, talking Codex entry - I just don't tend to like it when characters are that and not much else.

Helen0rz wrote...

perhaps you can accept the fact that his purpose is to be one of Hawke's opinion? He's a friend to Hawke? Perhaps he's that one companion that did not add more problems to Hawke's life, like Varric and Aveline?

Perhaps, but doesn't he do just that though?  Dealing with your friend's ex-owner and the minions he sends to recapture your friend seems like a problem that you wouldn't have to deal with had you not met the guy.  And if being around to help Hawke in exchange for help with all those problems is his purpose than he's not significantly more substantial in terms of purpose than a Feynriel or Thrask - and that difference is that he's a companion and LI. 

Helen0rz wrote...

I understand what you're trying to say, I really do, but perhaps his purpose was really simple and maybe too simple where you cannot accept that? *shrugs* I'm not trying to...make you seem as though you're 'stupid' for not accepting stuff because that's not what I'm trying to do, just fyi

I do get it, I just would be disappointed if that was all there was to him.

ahhhhh Ok~! I get it

you know he serves a purpose(s), whatever that might be, you're just not satified with it. You believe there should be more, and you're just...for the lack of a better word, disappointed?

With that said, this just came to me. My understanding with Danarius is that magisters are...like senators in Rome. They're important and whatnot...so by Hawke helping Fenris killing a powerful political figure in Tevinter, I imagine this is going to be a problem sooner or later. Or at least I hope it'll be addressed in the next game somehow. 

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...
I think the problem with Fenris is that he does a lot of talking and very little "doing" or "feeling" to actually reflect the impact it had on him He says a lot of things about mages and the Imperium, but he's so... well-adjusted, considering.

Hm. I don't know. He flips out on Hawke after Hardirana. I have the feeling its more repressing his issues with him. He deals with his issues on his own for the most part. When he does explode and take it out on Hawke he apologizes for it. I don't mind it personally though I can see why it's not everyone's cup of tea.

What could he do really though? Become a templar? He already will side with the templars if his respect for Hawke isn't strong. He doesn't hate or even dislike mages just abuses of power and him trying to stop any character (or in another vein any NPC trying to stop Hawke from doing something during a sidequest) would be met with a "he needs to die. now." for a portion of players. (Unless it's something awesome like Varric with Gascard. ) Heck he can snitch on Hawke for releasing Emile if his respect for Hawke isn't high enough.

It would have been nice to see him do something. Have him be the one who wants to turn Anders and Merrill into the templars, and give him a quest where he at least tries to. If that conflicts with his perceived "loyalty", even that could have been played up further with something like him inadvertantly starting to look to Hawke as his new master.

He's just so middle-of-the-road in everything he does. He gets angry, then appologizes. He's very anti-mage, but respects Hawke too much to move against his/her friends. He forms actual friendships with many of the party members. He doesn't have any sort of plot tie-in to at least make his role interesting. I don't dislike him, it's just difficult for me to find anything particularly compelling about him as a character. He really is a decent guy, which strikes me as odd considering the extent of what he tells us he went through.

autumnyte wrote...

I'd say that the fact that he squats in a run-down, filthy mansion for almost a decade is an indication of how damaged he is from that experience. He never rearranges so much as a chair, or repairs the broken floor tiles, or even removes the freakin' corpses. He never makes it his home. I find him to be quietly broken in a lot of ways like that. 

He lives in a shoddy mansion filled with corpses, and he still plays cards with Donnic every week. He comes off more neurotic than broken; he has some strange behaviors and habits left over but he ultimately functions. That's really weird to me.

[autumnyte]

Celestina wrote...

autumnyte wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I think the problem with Fenris is that he does a lot of talking and very little "doing" or "feeling" to actually reflect the impact it had on him He says a lot of things about mages and the Imperium, but he's so... well-adjusted, considering.

I'd say that the fact that he squats in a run-down, filthy mansion for almost a decade is an indication of how damaged he is from that experience. He never rearranges so much as a chair, or repairs the broken floor tiles, or even removes the freakin' corpses. He never makes it his home. I find him to be quietly broken in a lot of ways like that. 

I think that was just laziness on the dev's part.  Didn't feel like editing the house. 

LOL! Well, that isn't just coming from the lack of edits to the house environ (which, yeah, lazy devs for sure). 

But I get the impression from him and from companion comments, etc. that we are to believe he never made himself comfortable there. Which jibes with the fact that he is confused and conflicted about what his future holds until after Danarius is dead, and even then seems to struggle with coming to grips with his freedom.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Pseudocognition wrote...

I don't find some guy telling me how bad things are somewhere I have not yet been very persuasive :

True, it is difficult to form an opinion on Tevinter based on a secondary source.    (A very grumpy one at that who can exhibit some cruelty and jerkiness in the worst situations.)

This is just my own personal issue, but I'm a little sensitive toward slavery so it makes it difficult for me to be objective about a place that actively trades people as property and furthermore, legitimizes it without compunction.  I merely meant to give a potential rationale as to why someone might present someone like Fenris for a potential contrast to Anders's worldview rather than a Templar like Thrask.  I know it's rather simplistic view of it, but it seems the most logical to me.  If that doesn't work for you, then I can certainly understand why.

Also I find his view of Tevinter magisters as Always Chaotic Evil very suspect considering this is the ultimate grey and grey morality-verse... unless they actually are Always Chaotic Evil, which is... I don't know. Are they this Age's Acceptable Target? It feels like we're being set up to hate them and then go there and meet the noble citizens trying to reform from the inside, who keep getting set back because public perception of Tevinter is Always Chaotic Evil.

True, although he does say  in the Gallows that he has no doubt that there are decent magister in Tevinter it's just that if they want power they have to embrace the forbidden.  It's a cynical view, and certainly a pessimistic one.  I would say though that Feynriel somewhat backs up the sentiment when he sends that letter to Hawke in Act III and basically states, "that he kind of understands the templars a little bit better now." 

I do see where you're coming from and I'm not sure if I'm getting off-topic (which tends to happen because my brain just wanders) I think some of this has to come across this way or else no one would side with the Templars.  I know people give a lot talk about grey morality and such, but I'm not convinced they really want that.  We tend to separate things into good and bad, just and unjust, fair and unfair, particularly in the West.  The battle between the forces of good and forces of evil underline much of our societal narrative from the way we talk about history to the way we read books.  If not for Tevinter and other encounters, I have to ask how many would have sided with the mages automatically.

To your point, I really do hope that's the case.  I would like to see a magister who is secretly trying to change things.  I know Fenris mentions the one magister that did abolish slavery only to be executed very quickly, though I think that ultimately the change will have to come from the downtrodden and it will have to be a violent uprising.  OR it will become viable during the inevitable craziness that could come during the next game.  Hmm....

Modifié par Village Idiot, 21 avril 2011 - 12:19 .

[Helen0rz]

 we need funnies and pictars.

by ~pat-gun


by ~JPShieux


by ~Wolfs-Angel17

[Caliyhe]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

SOMEONE DRAW THIS. FENRIS IN TIGHTS WITH A CAPE. PERHAPS UNDERPANTS ON THE OUTSIDE.


DO IT RIGHT NOW 

I'd skip the tights with outside underpants and just go with upsetting shorts myself.  The artists could take it as an opportunity to draw lyrium markings way up his thighs.  The shorts being so upsettingly short.  Like Lieutenant Dangle.

Lol, I'd pay to see that.

[upsettingshorts]

Helen0rz wrote...

you know he serves a purpose(s), whatever that might be, you're just not satified with it. You believe there should be more, and you're just...for the lack of a better word, disappointed?

Somewhat.  I genuinely don't think there's any consensus as to what his purpose is among other players who have responded in this thread either.  I mean the only one offered that he's very good at would be the Tevinter exposition delivery guy... but that's it?  Then yes, I'd be disappointed.

[autumnyte]

ipgd wrote...

He lives in a shoddy mansion filled with corpses, and he still plays cards with Donnic every week. He comes off more neurotic than broken; he has some strange behaviors and habits left over but he ultimately functions. That's really weird to me.

I actually think you are spot on here, but instead of weird, it strikes me as very real. Maybe I know a lot of semi-functional-yet-broken people. 

I can see why some would find that aspect of his character off-putting or strange rather than endearing, though.

[lizzbee]

ipgd wrote...

It would have been nice to see him do something. Have him be the one who wants to turn Anders and Merrill into the templars, and give him a quest where he at least tries to. If that conflicts with his perceived "loyalty", even that could have been played up further with something like him inadvertantly starting to look to Hawke as his new master.

He's just so middle-of-the-road in everything he does. He gets angry, then appologizes. He's very anti-mage, but respects Hawke too much to move against his/her friends. He forms actual friendships with many of the party members. He doesn't have any sort of plot tie-in to at least make his role interesting. I don't dislike him, it's just difficult for me to find anything particularly compelling about him as a character. He really is a decent guy, which strikes me as odd considering the extent of what he tells us he went through.

Why can't he be a decent guy?  His "Alone" quest indicates that he was, in fact, a very decent person who was utterly effed over by the society he had the misfortune of being born into.  He's also very practical, pragmatic, rational and loyal.  Not everything or everyone is steam-rollered and completely flattened by circumstances.  That's actually why I like him.  He's opinionated and dysfunctional, but ultimately a calm and rational counterpoint to the game's insanity.

He lives in a shoddy mansion filled with corpses, and he still plays cards with Donnic every week. He comes off more neurotic than broken; he has some strange behaviors and habits left over but he ultimately functions. That's really weird to me.

Most people who survive horrible circumstances are like that.  You heal, but not "correctly."  You're wounded, but you survive and more or less get by day-to-day.

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...
It would have been nice to see him do something. Have him be the one who wants to turn Anders and Merrill into the templars, and give him a quest where he at least tries to. If that conflicts with his perceived "loyalty", even that could have been played up further with something like him inadvertantly starting to look to Hawke as his new master.

He's just so middle-of-the-road in everything he does. He gets angry, then appologizes. He's very anti-mage, but respects Hawke too much to move against his/her friends. He forms actual friendships with many of the party members. He doesn't have any sort of plot tie-in to at least make his role interesting. I don't dislike him, it's just difficult for me to find anything particularly compelling about him as a character. He really is a decent guy, which strikes me as odd considering the extent of what he tells us he went through.

Eh. I think his reaction to Seb said it all. Even if he did want to turn them in he respects Hawke to much to do it. I like the fact that he has such loyalty to Hawke. (Then of course is the fact that even if he doesn't like Anders and Merrill in combat the two of them are very useful.)

Everything you said about him is things I love about him. I like the fact that he apologizes for getting angry because frankly he should. It's not Hawke's fault what he went through. Him forming friendships gave him a life outside Hawke, no plot-tie in works more in his favor to me because it seems like he's similar to Hawke just stumbling around trying to get by. I think that alone makes him more interesting because alot of his actions are becase he's him, not because he has some larger goal or some voice telling him what to do.

As for him being a decent guy I don't find it odd. All victims of abuse don't react the same way to it.

That said I understand where you're coming from. Even if I don't agree with it myself.

[lizzbee]

Celestina wrote...

I think that was just laziness on the dev's part.  Didn't feel like editing the house. 

Exactly.  Didn't you notice all the broken, messed up tiles in the De Launcet mansion?  I giggled the first time I saw them.

[Helen0rz]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Somewhat.  I genuinely don't think there's any consensus as to what his purpose is among other players who have responded in this thread either.  I mean the only one offered that he's very good at would be the Tevinter exposition delivery guy... but that's it?  Then yes, I'd be disappointed.

To an extent all companions served that purpose. Antivan Crow, Orlesian Bard, Quanri Sten, Witch of the Wilds, Ex-Templar-Warden, Senior mage, you see what I'm saying? 

[Helen0rz]

lizzbee wrote...

Celestina wrote...

I think that was just laziness on the dev's part.  Didn't feel like editing the house. 

Exactly.  Didn't you notice all the broken, messed up tiles in the De Launcet mansion?  I giggled the first time I saw them.

Are you sure it wasn't the Mr. and the Mrs.  having a really big fight? or rough sexy time? lol

[Tealsie]

ipgd wrote...

he has some strange behaviors and habits left over but he ultimately functions. That's really weird to me.

Bad things have happened to all the characters(with varried levels of "bad") leaving them with scars. Anders wallows in his. Fenris tries to get over his own, and move on(which he starts to, eventually).
Just different ways different characters deal with things. Much like real people.

[lizzbee]

Helen0rz wrote...

Are you sure it wasn't the Mr. and the Mrs.  having a really big fight? or rough sexy time? lol

Oh, I am ze fainting, Monseiur!  Come and ze rescuuuue me wiz your Szward d'Amour!

Modifié par lizzbee, 21 avril 2011 - 12:28 .

[upsettingshorts]

Helen0rz wrote...

To an extent all companions served that purpose. Antivan Crow, Orlesian Bard, Quanri Sten, Witch of the Wilds, Ex-Templar-Warden, Senior mage, you see what I'm saying?

In Dragon Age Origins yes.  DG pointed out that this was an issue that they were endeavoring to improve upon in DA2.  He even said that Fenris was an example of that improvement... I'm really not seeing it.

I'm seeing it for say, Isabela and Anders and such, hence my posts here on the subject.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 12:29 .

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

lizzbee wrote...

Celestina wrote...

I think that was just laziness on the dev's part.  Didn't feel like editing the house. 

Exactly.  Didn't you notice all the broken, messed up tiles in the De Launcet mansion?  I giggled the first time I saw them.

I agree-- lazy devs --> Fenris has tons of dead bodies in his house for several years. 

Else, why would anyone have that many holes in their roof as well? Unless he had mage!Hawke OR managed to convince Anders or Merrill to enchant the holes in the ceiling so he didn't get rained on (or had Hawke ask them to, if s/he is not a mage). 

[yoshibb]

ipgd wrote...

It would have been nice to see him do something. Have him be the one who wants to turn Anders and Merrill into the templars, and give him a quest where he at least tries to. If that conflicts with his perceived "loyalty", even that could have been played up further with something like him inadvertantly starting to look to Hawke as his new master.

He's just so middle-of-the-road in everything he does. He gets angry, then appologizes. He's very anti-mage, but respects Hawke too much to move against his/her friends. He forms actual friendships with many of the party members. He doesn't have any sort of plot tie-in to at least make his role interesting. I don't dislike him, it's just difficult for me to find anything particularly compelling about him as a character. He really is a decent guy, which strikes me as odd considering the extent of what he tells us he went through.

Didn't that make sense for someone who is an escaped slave though. Expressing his opinion than immediately feeling like he was going to be punished for it. Conflicted on how to act as someone who is free. Initially, there are problems with his personality. I imagine him wandering around for days wondering what he was supposed to do with himself after Danarius left him. But people adjust, you find a reason to live and you move on. There are lingering side effects but nothing debilitating. Fenris comes across as someone with a strong will and he's decided that he's going to try to learn how to live as a free man. 

Just because someone went through a traumatizing experience, doesn't mean they are forever broken.