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[upsettingshorts]

Hekateras wrote...

I'm not just talking about the difference between objective Codex entry and subjective, passionate opinion. I'm talking about how it affects the player or the roleplayed character of Hawke.

A Codex entry? You read it once, maybe twice, when you discover it. Then, nothing..

In a sense, you're actually preaching to the choir.  "Fenris is there to explain Tevinter and such" isn't really my theory as to his greater purpose.  It was posed by others in this thread, including but not limited to those who felt my "he is a foil, albeit an ineffective one, for Anders."

I agree that someone like Fenris does need to be there to counter Anders.  Someone living and breathing and passionate and driven and all those things.  It's the cornerstone of my argument really.  I just don't think he's as good at it as you do.

He certainly does explain Tevinter, but with his own bitter cynical take.  That he does this as well simply strikes me as something of a bonus though it can be seen - as this discussion has shown - as his purpose.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 01:01 .

[lizzbee]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You're inventing qualifications that don't exist and I never put forward.

If I say "In Dragon Age 2 the character of Fenris lacks a significant role within the story."

That doesn't need to account for future game content. Nor does it try to.  So if the response is, "It might matter later" that might be true, it also doesn't change a thing about what I said.

You've put forth the impression, if it's not explicitly stated, and if I've put words in your mouth, I apologize.  TBH, I felt much the same way about Leliana that you do about Fenris.  I thought she was in the story to give you a "good girl" romance, and to tell a few of Thedas' legends.  Then the end of DA2 came, and I was a little surprised, to say the least.

[Hekateras]

@Yoshibb:

He doesn't even question Hawke to begin with either, which is kind of stupid.

You can bring the issue up, actually, with one of the aggressive options in his recruiting conversation. Hawke says "Aren't you worried I'll sell you out?" He replies "Not so far". He is cautious and mistrustful, but recognises that someone who's just helped him kill a bunch of Slavers and attack a magister's mansion is a better bet for a reliable ally than anyone else he's met so far.

Modifié par Hekateras, 21 avril 2011 - 01:04 .

[upsettingshorts]

lizzbee wrote...

You've put forth the impression, if it's
not explicitly stated, and if I've put words in your mouth, I
apologize.  TBH, I felt much the same way about Leliana that you do
about Fenris.  I thought she was in the story to give you a "good girl"
romance, and to tell a few of Thedas' legends.  Then the end of DA2
came, and I was a little surprised, to say the least.

No worries.

I thought a lot of DAO companions were like that - basically all of them except Alistair and Morrigan (and the secret companion, technically) - I was expecting every DA2 companion to be different, precisely because DG gave me the impression that they would be. And to me, they were, except the one he wrote.

Which is kind of why I'm posting.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 01:03 .

[Sherbet Lemon]

ipgd wrote...

I could maybe buy a slave ending up like Fenris, but considering he had absolutely no memory of life before being a slave at all, and therefor no frame of reference for normality to begin with, I just find it hard to believe he starts out so reasonable. 

I don't know.  I suppose it depends on how you see the function of memory in the formation of identity, perhaps?

I personally believe that his memory loss didn't completely destroy his "persona" per se.  The person that Fenris was prior to the ritual is still present.  He just doesn't remember that person.  The residual effects of who he was are still there.  I don't think it's a matter of we loose our memory we loose all that we are.  I think on it matter, we loose our memory we loose conscious grasp of who we were.  Fenris becomes Fenris though Leto is still there, he's just out of reach.  If we look at the commentary he gives right before he kills Varania (if you do this) we still see glimpses of it.  He says, "I would have given you everything."  Because I have never let Fenris kill Varania, I know what she tells him.  He gave up everything for her already once as it were and she reveals this to him when she turns to leave.  It is here we see that parallel between Fenris and Leto.

[Hekateras]

@Upsettingshorts, by now I'm really curious... Do you have any concrete ideas about how he could be better at fulfilling his role as a counterpoint to Anders? How he could be more driven and passionate in a way that would improve, not diminish, his characterisation?

[mellifera]

Hekateras wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

@Hekateras: I don't think anyone here is arguing that the story doesn't absolutely require a companion with an anti-mage stance. The issue is how strongly or effectively that comes across.

Personally I found it a little too easy to be like "okay, whatever, Fenris..."

He's there to make the issue of mages being free more personal to the player. He doesn't need to go on active crusades against the in-party mages to be effective in that, in my opinion - I wasn't suggesting that.

He doesn't, no, but the nature of his role as the 'anti-mage guy' in your party next to Anders' 'pro-mage guy' just makes him fall flat in comparison.

Fenris just needed to be pushed further in any direction, as it stands he's just... there. He doesn't make me feel strongly either way, even when romancing him, which is what makes him fairly ineffective in his role.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Hekateras wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

@Hekateras: I don't think anyone here is arguing that the story doesn't absolutely require a companion with an anti-mage stance. The issue is how strongly or effectively that comes across.

Personally I found it a little too easy to be like "okay, whatever, Fenris..."

He's there to make the issue of mages being free more personal to the player. He doesn't need to go on active crusades against the in-party mages to be effective in that, in my opinion - I wasn't suggesting that.

I know you didn't... but in my opinion he could have at least tried. It would have gotten my attention in a similar way to when I wanted to help out Anders (in the beginning) and then STOP ANDERS (in the ending) and stop Merrill from hurting herself/others/Kirkwall with the mirror o' doom and then help Isabela (to keep her from being killed) and then kick Isabela (for having hoarded the origin of the Qun). Fenris... I just sort of.. mildly disagreed with at times.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 21 avril 2011 - 01:09 .

[Heidenreich]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

lizzbee wrote...

You've put forth the impression, if it's
not explicitly stated, and if I've put words in your mouth, I
apologize.  TBH, I felt much the same way about Leliana that you do
about Fenris.  I thought she was in the story to give you a "good girl"
romance, and to tell a few of Thedas' legends.  Then the end of DA2
came, and I was a little surprised, to say the least.

No worries.

I thought a lot of DAO companions were like that - basically all of them except Alistair and Morrigan (and the secret companion, technically) - I was expecting every DA2 companion to be different, precisely because DG gave me the impression that they would be. And to me, they were, except the one he wrote.

Which is kind of why I'm posting.

Your well writen argument just has me feeling that there really is -more- to fenris's story. Will we see Hawke again in DA3? Will our Warden reapear? its all very suspect, and I'm to tired to contribute anything really relevent. I just thought it needed to be stated, again.

[upsettingshorts]

Hekateras wrote...

@Upsettingshorts, by now I'm really curious... Do you have any concrete ideas about how he could be better at fulfilling his role as a counterpoint to Anders? How he could be more driven and passionate in a way that would improve, not diminish, his characterisation?

An easy and simple way would be a Legion/Tali moment between Anders and Fenris.  That's the least complicated example I can think of.  There are others I could probly dream up that would radically alter his role in the game, or introduce Hawke to Fenris at a much earlier stage in the latter's development - such as helping him initially escape from slavery, or running into him only moments (or days) after his capture, with all of the additional wounds and baggage that would entail. 

In terms of direct conflict with Anders, I think his personality - while interesting - holds him back from being as effective a challenge to Anders as, well, Anders needs.  There's no way to "fix" this I can think of without breaking Fenris' character, or having another character fill that role.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 01:12 .

[ejoslin]

It's probably WAY too late and the conversation past (I'm just catching up) but I'd like to point out that Socrates was illiterate.  SOCRATES!~  

One can be illiterate and still intelligent, eloquent, and capable of critical thinking.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 avril 2011 - 01:13 .

[Hekateras]

yukidama wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

@Hekateras: I don't think anyone here is arguing that the story doesn't absolutely require a companion with an anti-mage stance. The issue is how strongly or effectively that comes across.

Personally I found it a little too easy to be like "okay, whatever, Fenris..."

He's there to make the issue of mages being free more personal to the player. He doesn't need to go on active crusades against the in-party mages to be effective in that, in my opinion - I wasn't suggesting that.

He doesn't, no, but the nature of his role as the 'anti-mage guy' in your party next to Anders' 'pro-mage guy' just makes him fall flat in comparison.

Fenris just needed to be pushed further in any direction, as it stands he's just... there. He doesn't make me feel strongly either way, even when romancing him, which is what makes him fairly ineffective in his role.

Would making him more radical really have improved his characterisation? If anything, I believe it would have clashed with the rest of it - namely, the part about him still being on shaky ground about his own identity. A dysfunctional person like that needs basic necessities before he's ready to take on a cause.

I can imagine him growing more proactive in his anti-mage tendency as the game goes on, but IMO it would clash with the development of him growing more functional as a person and a social being.

Fenris became more reasonable and got a life.

Anders became fanatical and tore his life down around him.

That's the contrast. Making Fenris more similar to Anders, in the sense of doing more for his "cause", such as it is... IMO that would have detracted from, not added to his character.

[upsettingshorts]

Socrates also engaged in rhetorical and philosophical debate with other intellectual equals his entire life.

[ejoslin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Socrates also engaged in rhetorical and philosophical debate with other intellectual equals his entire life.

Of course he did.  But since we no almost nothing of how Fenris was treated as a slave other than he was a body guard, you have no clue what he was taught and how he processed information and really, what he was exposed to intellectually.

Being illiterate is completely irrelevant.  

Edit: Am I horrible to suggest that Fenris' memories may have been wiped for the second time by a second round of lyrium markings?

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 avril 2011 - 01:18 .

[Hekateras]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

@Upsettingshorts, by now I'm really curious... Do you have any concrete ideas about how he could be better at fulfilling his role as a counterpoint to Anders? How he could be more driven and passionate in a way that would improve, not diminish, his characterisation?

An easy and simple way would be a Legion/Tali moment between Anders and Fenris.  That's the least complicated example I can think of. 

I haven't played any of the ME games. Elaborate, please?

In terms of direct conflict with Anders, I think his personality - while interesting - holds him back from being as effective a challenge to Anders as, well, Anders needs.  There's no way to "fix" this I can think of without breaking Fenris' character, or having another character fill that role.  

That's my thing, as well. There's no way for him to be Ander's equal opposite without breaking character. However, I disagree that Anders needs an equal opposite as much as you feel. If anything, the fact that doesn't fraternise with anyone like that is what allows his mad scheme to go on for as long as it does - anything else and his fanaticism would be uncovered far sooner. In other words, changing Fenris to an equal opponent would mean changing a lot of other things, as well - not necessarily for the better.

[Ryzaki]

Ah it was silly. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 avril 2011 - 01:18 .

[ipgd]

lizzbee wrote...

Keep in mind, he spent months with the Fog Warriors, seeing a healthier way of life.  He'd also been on the run for three years before he met Hawke.  Some amount of healing and functionality had to happen for him to survive for so long.  Add seven more to that, and by Act 3, he'd been free for a decade, not counting those months with the Fog Warriors.  If he didn't at least heal somewhat by then, he really would be irrevocably broken.

A healthier way of life, sure. They still must have plenty of issues themselves, considering the type of person you have to be to join a rebel group. If that was his first experience of free life that he remembers, why doesn't he reflect that? He doesn't come off like someone that spent months living in a jungle. He doesn't even really reflect that many mannerisms you might expect from a former slave.  If I met Fenris without having known anything about his past, I'd probably just assume he was a normal guy having a bad day.

I mean, again, sure, it's possible for him to move past it... but it didn't seem like he was supposed to have moved past it. His entire character narrative seems to be "deeply broken slave", but he just comes off like "mostly rehabilitated slave with some residual issues". He just keeps telling you over and over again that he's broken and that his rage towards Danarius pretty much consumes his life, and I'm just like, really? You honestly aren't that bad at all.

I guess that's just where he falls flat for me. He talks a lot but his actions don't really reflect that narrative.

[upsettingshorts]

I can make an educated guess, considering he was a slave warrior and trophy. Others are free to guess that he would have been exposed to such things. Therefore, his illiteracy is relevant to me, because I don't think he was discussing the nature of knowledge with Danarius over wine. Or whatever.

It's still speculation either way.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 01:19 .

[ejoslin]

Well, he WAS exposed to such things if he was always by Denarius' side. And he's intelligent enough to pick things up. Whether he was discussing things or merely exposed and learned from other people's arguments is again not that relevant -- when I hear a good teacher lecture, I don't need to participate in the conversation to learn.

[leggywillow]

But illiteracy can be fun!

That's why Fenris and Anders take turns being Charlie Kelly in my mental version of It's Always Sunny in Kirkwall.

Modifié par leggywillow, 21 avril 2011 - 01:21 .

[Tasmen]

leggywillow wrote...

But illiteracy can be fun!

That's why Fenris and Anders take turns being Charlie Kelly in my mental version of It's Always Sunny in Kirkwall.

I'm still going with Anders being Charlie.. It's the kitten mittens.

[upsettingshorts]

Hekateras wrote...

I haven't played any of the ME games. Elaborate, please?

It's nothing terribly fancy.

The idea is that two characters who have a very good reason to hate each other - or what each other represents - eventually come to blows or close to it.  In the ME2 system their Loyalty (determines endgame survival and effectiveness) is at stake, so something else would have to be in DA2. 

Anyway, there is a fight - or something very close to one- and Hawke must either choose sides or given the right Paragon/Renegade (in DA2, I assume this would be Friend/Rival with both parties) to talk them both down and keep them both loyal.

So Fenris is enraged by something Anders did or vice versa, and they fight.  Varric or Aveline runs and gets you, and you arrive to see them tearing whatever room theyre in apart.  If you're only friends/rivals with say, Anders, you have to side with him, and Fenris leaves your party or something.  Or attacks anyway and you must kill him.  If you're friends/rivals with both, you can leverage that mutual respect into being peacemaker and getting them both to calm down.  Or you could pick sides anyway.

During this scene, Fenris could be in total anger mode at Anders and the mages, and Anders - in contrast with his usual passion, would be trying to play the "youre just like us" card and failing to be convincing to Fenris.

Just a thought.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 01:25 .

[Annarl]

lizzbee wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

In Dragon Age Origins yes.  DG pointed out that this was an issue that they were endeavoring to improve upon in DA2.  He even said that Fenris was an example of that improvement... I'm really not seeing it.

I'm seeing it for say, Isabela and Anders and such, hence my posts here on the subject.

There are hints that Danarius is going to play some critical plot role later.  I've watched the vid of Hawke betraying Fenris, and Danarius mentions that Hawke has made an important ally.  I'm guessing if you kill said magister, there will be similar opposing repercussions.  Until we see the complete story arc, including DA3, we really won't know for sure.

I think that's the thing with Thane as well-- you've got ins with the hanar with him, maybe, but you really won't know until ME3 comes out.  For all we know both are "sleeper" characters who will have a big story impact later.  It's really hard to judge for sure where things lie in both series.

How can Danarius play an important role in the future if we killed him?  Fenris crushes his heart.  Or will this be another raising the dead and tell us there will be an explanation some day in the future (DG response to those players who killed Leliana)  I hope not!

[leggywillow]

Tasmen wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

But illiteracy can be fun!

That's why Fenris and Anders take turns being Charlie Kelly in my mental version of It's Always Sunny in Kirkwall.

I'm still going with Anders being Charlie.. It's the kitten mittens.

That's why they have to take turns.  Anders is an amazing Charlie... but if Fenris is Charlie, then I can amuse myself with quotes like this:

Fenris: Oh, ****.  Look at that door, dude.  You see that door right there, the one marked "Pirate"? You think a pirate lives in there?
Hawke: I see a door marked "Private". Is that the door you're talking about?

and

Isabela: Place, the Hanged Man. Time, Saturday. Date, with Fenris. Prize... HANGED MAN?!
Varric: Whoa, dude, you put the bar up as a prize?
Fenris: No, I listed it in the 'Pride' section, the place where you list what you take pride in.
Isabela: That's a 'Z', Fenris!
Varric: Didn't you read that goddamn thing?
Fenris: I gave it a once-over!
Hawke:  Oh, that's it! Your illiteracy has screwed us again!

EDIT: Holy formatting, Batman!

Modifié par leggywillow, 21 avril 2011 - 01:28 .

[Addai]

ipgd wrote...

I mean, again, sure, it's possible for him to move past it... but it didn't seem like he was supposed to have moved past it. His entire character narrative seems to be "deeply broken slave", but he just comes off like "mostly rehabilitated slave with some residual issues". He just keeps telling you over and over again that he's broken and that his rage towards Danarius pretty much consumes his life, and I'm just like, really? You honestly aren't that bad at all.

I guess that's just where he falls flat for me. He talks a lot but his actions don't really reflect that narrative.

God, please- we did not need two male LIs who are totally mental.

It's enough for me that he is an observant and intelligent person, who precisely because he couldn't read developed other senses, and lived around Tevinter's equivalent of nobility where he could observe cultured speech and mannerisms.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 avril 2011 - 01:30 .