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[Hekateras]

ipgd wrote...
 He doesn't even really reflect that many mannerisms you might expect from a former slave.  If I met Fenris without having known anything about his past, I'd probably just assume he was a normal guy having a bad day.

I guess that's just where he falls flat for me. He talks a lot but his actions don't really reflect that narrative.

Really? Asking if Hawke wants him to leave after their squabble over Hadriana, the "Command me to go, and I shall" bit of one of the romance scenes, heck, even the "I am yours" line... That doesn't sound ominously like a former slave caving in to old obedience instincts to you, like someone trying to fit their friendly/romantic relationship into the slave/master box they're so comfortably familiar with?

Sure, it's not stated explicitly and is a matter of subtext, but I find reading into things enjoyable. Anyway, as has been detailed here several times, Fenris is not well-adjusted in the least. Sure, he seems like a regular guy on a bad day if you just spend five minutes with him. Spend any more than that, whether it's work or a field trip or rooming together, and the screwed up things are pretty obvious.

[Tasmen]

leggywillow wrote...
That's why they have to take turns.  Anders is an amazing Charlie... but if Fenris is Charlie, then I can amuse myself with quotes like this:

Fenris: Oh, ****.  Look at that door, dude.  You see that door right there, the one marked "Pirate"? You think a pirate lives in there?
Hawke: I see a door marked "Private". Is that the door you're talking about?

and

Isabela: Place, the Hanged Man. Time, Saturday. Date, with Fenris. Prize... HANGED MAN?!
Varric: Whoa, dude, you put the bar up as a prize?
Fenris: No, I listed it in the 'Pride' section, the place where you list what you take pride in.
Isabela: That's a 'Z', Fenris!
Varric: Didn't you read that goddamn thing?
Fenris: I gave it a once-over!
Hawke:  Oh, that's it! Your illiteracy has screwed us again!

EDIT: Holy formatting, Batman!

Ok, I lol'd and would totally lol again.  I concede your point, madame.  Now let's bring in some MaCarver for the gun show please.

[Dr. Doctor]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You're inventing qualifications that don't exist and I never put forward.

If I say "In Dragon Age 2 the character of Fenris lacks a significant role within the story."

That doesn't need to account for future game content. Nor does it try to.  So if the response is, "It might matter later" that might be true, it also doesn't change a thing about what I said.

I concur with your statement. Fenris isn't exactly an integral part of the story in Dragon Age 2. The plot can move on unhindered without him. To me what he does offer is a greater sense of what happens when magical power is abused. While "All That Remains" does give us a deeper insight into what evil magic can cause, Fenris provides a more extensive example.

However, considering that the main idea of the story is to describe Hawke's rise to power, then no Fenris isn't really essential to that role from a plot standpoint. Technically, the only real essential characters are Varric and Anders, without them the story wouldn't progress past the first act.


On the subject of Fenris and Anders

Fenris' personallity is to me is a clash between logic and emotion. Fenris is inside a rather angry person, he's been tourtured, enslaved, and hunted. To me it would be understandable that he would hate all mages with a fiery passion. Yet, he's willing to work alongside mages if he has to, as it makes little sense to fight those who have done you no harm. Meanwhile when we encounter Hadriana, a person to whom Fenris has a deep sense of hatred for he's willing to overlook logical decisions in order to get revenge.

Anders on the other hand is a much more passionate man, he appears to prefer having his wants and desires drive him rather than what makes logical sense. In Awakening his whole reason for escaping the Circle is simply so he can have "A decent meal, a pretty girl, and the right to shoot lightning at fools." Not exactly a clear plan for the future. When we add in Justice, who is the embodiment of an ideal Anders becomes a much more emotional character. On one hand he's trying to be an uncompromising rebel who seeks nothing more than the liberation of mages. On the other hand he's a man who's slowly losing touch with who he is. (The romance to me is Anders trying to reach out and make some permanent connection to his human side)

Pardon the wall of text.

[ipgd]

Hekateras wrote...

Fenris became more reasonable and got a life.

Anders became fanatical and tore his life down around him.

That's the contrast. Making Fenris more similar to Anders, in the sense of doing more for his "cause", such as it is... IMO that would have detracted from, not added to his character.

That would have been really interesting, had it played out that way. Instead, most of his character development seemed to have happened before the game. He's never at any point as extreme or unstable as Anders is by the end. If he'd started out really struggling with his rage towards Danarius/mages and actually taking extreme actions towards them in the beginning, and mellowed out by the end, I would have really liked him as a character, probably. But he just starts out mellow, then progresses to being slightly more mellow.

[upsettingshorts]

Hekateras wrote...

Really? Asking if Hawke wants him to leave after their squabble over Hadriana, the "Command me to go, and I shall" bit of one of the romance scenes, heck, even the "I am yours" line... That doesn't sound ominously like a former slave caving in to old obedience instincts to you, like someone trying to fit their friendly/romantic relationship into the slave/master box they're so comfortably familiar with?

To many who responded when I made a similar observation a couple hundred pages ago... the answers seemed to be mixed.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 01:38 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

ipgd wrote....

But he just starts out mellow, then progresses to being slightly more mellow.

Except when he gets angry. But then... the anger is completely justified. With the added bonus that he doesn't direct it towards all mages. So... reasonable.

[upsettingshorts]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Technically, the only real essential characters are Varric and Anders, without them the story wouldn't progress past the first act.

Not to diminish your entire post into just this one piece - I'm getting a bit tired, so you'll forgive me if I cherry pick a little, in any case I'm not sure what else I can add that I haven't already said anyway - but it's starting to downright shock me how many people dismiss Isabela's influence on the narrative.

[Dr. Doctor]

I might be a bit dense, but I always thought that "command me to go" was intended as "get out of my house" rather than "get out of my life"

[Hekateras]

Addai67 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I mean, again, sure, it's possible for him to move past it... but it didn't seem like he was supposed to have moved past it. His entire character narrative seems to be "deeply broken slave", but he just comes off like "mostly rehabilitated slave with some residual issues". He just keeps telling you over and over again that he's broken and that his rage towards Danarius pretty much consumes his life, and I'm just like, really? You honestly aren't that bad at all.

I guess that's just where he falls flat for me. He talks a lot but his actions don't really reflect that narrative.

God, please- we did not need two male LIs who are totally mental.

It's enough for me that he is an observant and intelligent person, who precisely because he couldn't read developed other senses, and lived around Tevinter's equivalent of nobility where he could observe cultured speech and mannerisms.

Seconded. If Fenris were as broken and damaged as requested here, he'd be too high-maintenance emotionally, especially combined with Anders, whose relationship with you is the only thing keeping him sane, and Merrill, who'd also fall apart without your support.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

I haven't played any of the ME games. Elaborate, please?

It's nothing terribly fancy.

The
idea is that two characters who have a very good reason to hate each
other - or what each other represents - eventually come to blows or
close to it.  In the ME2 system their Loyalty (determines endgame
survival and effectiveness) is at stake, so something else would have to
be in DA2. 

I don't know - and how,
exactly, would that add to the story or to Fenris's role? All I see is
his relatively laid-back attitude (in the sense of not attacking people
for being mages) being undermined there in what feels like a pointless
squabble. There's also the issue of Hawke being forced to pick sides or
play babysitter for the squabbling children again. In the case of ME,
how did the players generally take it?

[upsettingshorts]

He's only laid back until something pisses him off, then he flips the rage switch. If Trigger Event flips his rage switch, then it wouldn't be out of character for him to be angry.

In terms of how players liked or didn't like the confrontations, I can't say. It's only the easiest idea I could think of, I doubt it's the best idea.

[Ryzaki]

It was irritating in ME especially as how with Jack/Miranda at least it felt childish. (doesn't help that I did Jack's loyalty second) so pretty much felt like Jack marched up to Miranda's office and started a fight.

The Legion/Tali one felt justified because her father had done experiments on Legion's people to go to war. (Felt odd he would wait until we were done with the heretics to do it.)  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 avril 2011 - 01:42 .

[Hekateras]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

I might be a bit dense, but I always thought that "command me to go" was intended as "get out of my house" rather than "get out of my life"

Sure. He's asking Hawke to dismiss him if she doesn't want what he does. But really, it's the phrasing... Asking to be commanded. I don't think that's coincidence.

[upsettingshorts]

Jack/Miranda did seem like a childish catfight. Legion/Tali is the better example for this case.

Im so glad I cheat that game, I could use the Renegade "Cut it out, you idiots" in the former and the Paragon "You need to get along and work together" in the latter!

But I don't want to get too far into that tangent.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 01:44 .

[Annarl]

Ryzaki wrote...

It was irritating in ME especially as how with Jack/Miranda at least it felt childish. (doesn't help that I did Jack's loyalty second) so pretty much felt like Jack marched up to Miranda's office and started a fight.

The Legion/Tali one felt justified because her father had done experiments on Legion's people to go to war.

I would agree.  Jack and Miranda's fight seemed very...high schoolish.  Heck it even had a cheerleader reference.

[tankgirly]

I love serious discussion moments!
*pop a handful of popcorn into the mouth.*

Thread moves way faster, and we all got interesting stuff to read and chat about.


Astrobats Ritual.

[Affably]

ipgd wrote...

He doesn't even really reflect that many mannerisms you might expect from a former slave.  If I met Fenris without having known anything about his past, I'd probably just assume he was a normal guy having a bad day.

Wouldn't that be exactly what he'd want you to think?  Yes, he confides in Hawke about his past and his feelings, but overall he's not in a big hurry to reveal his emotional vulnerabilities to every person he sees on the street.

Modifié par Affably, 21 avril 2011 - 01:51 .

[Dr. Doctor]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Technically, the only real essential characters are Varric and Anders, without them the story wouldn't progress past the first act.

Not to diminish your entire post into just this one piece - I'm getting a bit tired, so you'll forgive me if I cherry pick a little, in any case I'm not sure what else I can add that I haven't already said anyway - but it's starting to downright shock me how many people dismiss Isabela's influence on the narrative.

From a sheer "You need X and Y to continue the main quest standpoint" Varric and Anders are the essential characters. Isabela's major contribution is a) A huge chunk of excellent character interaction and Making the climax of Act 2 make sense.

Because without Isabela this happens:

Arishok: I cannot leave without the Relic.

Hawke: What relic?

Arishok: The Tome of Koslun, our most sacred text. We can't leave without it.

Hawke: What in the Void are you talking about?

Arishok: You have no clue what I'm talking about?

Hawke: Nope, none at all.

Arishok: Then you die!

[Hekateras]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

He's only laid back until something pisses him off, then he flips the rage switch. If Trigger Event flips his rage switch, then it wouldn't be out of character for him to be angry.

In terms of how players liked or didn't like the confrontations, I can't say. It's only the easiest idea I could think of, I doubt it's the best idea.

Hm, but it generally takes very personal matters to set him off like that. Hadriana flips his rage switch because he hates her, personally, for the way she treated him just because she could. She's the embodiment of people with power abusing that power, both in the sense of authority over a slave and magic over a non-mage.

As much as he dislikes Anders and considers him dangerous, I don't get much in the sense of personal hatred there. Distaste, disgust, contempt, sure. Hatred, not so much. I just don't see him completely flipping out and losing all control to go at it with Anders like that.

Yawn. I'll have to go to sleep soon and I can only imagine what the thread will be like when I get to it. If there is a God, he's a jerk for making us sleep a third of our lives. T_T

Modifié par Hekateras, 21 avril 2011 - 01:50 .

[tankgirly]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Technically, the only real essential characters are Varric and Anders, without them the story wouldn't progress past the first act.

Not to diminish your entire post into just this one piece - I'm getting a bit tired, so you'll forgive me if I cherry pick a little, in any case I'm not sure what else I can add that I haven't already said anyway - but it's starting to downright shock me how many people dismiss Isabela's influence on the narrative.

From a sheer "You need X and Y to continue the main quest standpoint" Varric and Anders are the essential characters. Isabela's major contribution is a) A huge chunk of excellent character interaction and Making the climax of Act 2 make sense.

Because without Isabela this happens:

Arishok: I cannot leave without the Relic.

Hawke: What relic?

Arishok: The Tome of Koslun, our most sacred text. We can't leave without it.

Hawke: What in the Void are you talking about?

Arishok: You have no clue what I'm talking about?

Hawke: Nope, none at all.

Arishok: Then you die!

Arh...isn't this the point when Fenris interjected and saying you two should be duel?

[ipgd]

Addai67 wrote...

God, please- we did not need two male LIs who are totally mental.

It's enough for me that he is an observant and intelligent person, who precisely because he couldn't read developed other senses, and lived around Tevinter's equivalent of nobility where he could observe cultured speech and mannerisms.

It's more an issue with his mannerisms not really reflecting the severity of his treatment and what he basically tells you about how stable he thinks he is.

He doesn't have to be crazy, it just seems like his narrative is suggesting he was basically supposed to be but isn't. If he were written to actually be a well-adjusted ex-slave with residual issues, instead of a well-adjusted ex-slave with residual issues who seems to believe he's much more broken than he actually is, I'd... still think he was kind of boring, but it would be less confusing.

[Annarl]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Technically, the only real essential characters are Varric and Anders, without them the story wouldn't progress past the first act.

Not to diminish your entire post into just this one piece - I'm getting a bit tired, so you'll forgive me if I cherry pick a little, in any case I'm not sure what else I can add that I haven't already said anyway - but it's starting to downright shock me how many people dismiss Isabela's influence on the narrative.

Isabela's influence on the story is essentially why you are the Champion of Kirkwall, to me that makes her more important than Varric.  But she really has no impact on the mage/templar story. And in some games is gone for Act 3.  I think each character is supposed to add something to Hawke's experience.  Helping him or her develop a perspective on the situation that Hawke may have lacked before.  We can like or dislike that perspective but it's there.  Each one of these characters has an interesting story to tell, even Sebastion who I think was the most poorily written or should I say underwritten.  

Modifié par omearaee, 21 avril 2011 - 01:52 .

[upsettingshorts]

@Hekateras:

Then the simple answer would be to make the Trigger Event something personal to Fenris that Anders got involved in? Maybe he sneaks Hadriana out of the city not knowing their relationship, just knowing her as an Apostate, and Fenris finds out about this? It would have to be setup so that there's be no way Anders would have heard of their relationship before - or maybe he does but just doesn't care - but it could work.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 01:53 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

omearaee wrote...

Isabela's influence on the story is essentially why you are the Champion of Kirkwall, to me that makes her more important than Varric.  But she really has no impact on the mage/templar story. And in some games is gone for Act 3.  I think each character is supposed to add something to Hawke's experience.  Helping he or her develop perspective on the situation that Hawke may have lacked before.  We can like or dislike that perspective but it's there.  Each one of these characters has an interesting story to tell, even Sebastion who I think was the most poorily written or should I say underwritten.  

But attaining the status of Champion gives Hawke the influence and status Hawke needs to pick a side in the mage/templar issue. Otherwise why else would Meredith or Orsino care about his/her opinion?

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 21 avril 2011 - 01:54 .

[Hekateras]

ipgd wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

God, please- we did not need two male LIs who are totally mental.

It's enough for me that he is an observant and intelligent person, who precisely because he couldn't read developed other senses, and lived around Tevinter's equivalent of nobility where he could observe cultured speech and mannerisms.

It's more an issue with his mannerisms not really reflecting the severity of his treatment and what he basically tells you about how stable he thinks he is.

He doesn't have to be crazy, it just seems like his narrative is suggesting he was basically supposed to be but isn't. If he were written to actually be a well-adjusted ex-slave with residual issues, instead of a well-adjusted ex-slave with residual issues who seems to believe he's much more broken than he actually is, I'd... still think he was kind of boring, but it would be less confusing.

What gives you the impression that he believes he's much more broken than he actually is? As in, what bits of him talking about his brokennes don't jive with reality in your opinion?

[lizzbee]

omearaee wrote...

lizzbee wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

In Dragon Age Origins yes.  DG pointed out that this was an issue that they were endeavoring to improve upon in DA2.  He even said that Fenris was an example of that improvement... I'm really not seeing it.

I'm seeing it for say, Isabela and Anders and such, hence my posts here on the subject.

There are hints that Danarius is going to play some critical plot role later.  I've watched the vid of Hawke betraying Fenris, and Danarius mentions that Hawke has made an important ally.  I'm guessing if you kill said magister, there will be similar opposing repercussions.  Until we see the complete story arc, including DA3, we really won't know for sure.

I think that's the thing with Thane as well-- you've got ins with the hanar with him, maybe, but you really won't know until ME3 comes out.  For all we know both are "sleeper" characters who will have a big story impact later.  It's really hard to judge for sure where things lie in both series.

How can Danarius play an important role in the future if we killed him?  Fenris crushes his heart.  Or will this be another raising the dead and tell us there will be an explanation some day in the future (DG response to those players who killed Leliana)  I hope not!

I bolded the part you're asking about.  You kill a magister, his death causes some kind of power vacuum/struggle in the Imperium, and the aftershocks will have an impact.  My first sentence could be a little clearer, I suppose.  How's this: "How you handle Danarius will likely have some sort of major plot implications later in the series, or so some of the dialog would hint."