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[Annarl]

Pseudocognition wrote...

omearaee wrote...

Isabela's influence on the story is essentially why you are the Champion of Kirkwall, to me that makes her more important than Varric.  But she really has no impact on the mage/templar story. And in some games is gone for Act 3.  I think each character is supposed to add something to Hawke's experience.  Helping he or her develop perspective on the situation that Hawke may have lacked before.  We can like or dislike that perspective but it's there.  Each one of these characters has an interesting story to tell, even Sebastion who I think was the most poorily written or should I say underwritten.  

But attaining the status of Champion gives Hawke the influence and status Hawke needs to pick a side in the mage/templar issue. Otherwise why else would Meredith or Orsino care about his/her opinion?

I agree.  Obtaining that status is important and therefore she does have an impact. But once she is gone, her part in the story is done.  That's what I meant.

[ejoslin]

Pseudocognition wrote...

omearaee wrote...

Isabela's influence on the story is essentially why you are the Champion of Kirkwall, to me that makes her more important than Varric.  But she really has no impact on the mage/templar story. And in some games is gone for Act 3.  I think each character is supposed to add something to Hawke's experience.  Helping he or her develop perspective on the situation that Hawke may have lacked before.  We can like or dislike that perspective but it's there.  Each one of these characters has an interesting story to tell, even Sebastion who I think was the most poorily written or should I say underwritten.  

But attaining the status of Champion gives Hawke the influence and status Hawke needs to pick a side in the mage/templar issue. Otherwise why else would Meredith or Orsino care about his/her opinion?

If you don't recruit Isabela, she could be anyone.  Though she was the catalyst, she as a character is not important -- only her one action is.  If you never see her, if she gets the relic on her own and leaves and you have no part of it, it doesn't change a thing about the story.

Her action is what is important to the plot, but she is not.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 avril 2011 - 01:58 .

[Hekateras]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

@Hekateras:

Then the simple answer would be to make the Trigger Event something personal to Fenris that Anders got involved in? Maybe he sneaks Hadriana out of the city not knowing their relationship, just knowing her as an Apostate, and Fenris finds out about this? It would have to be setup so that there's be no way Anders would have heard of their relationship before - or maybe he does but just doesn't care - but it could work.

Hm, more like finding out that Anders has been teaming up with Danarius/Tevinters/Magisters/Slavers for whatever reason. Now that wouldn't be out of character for anyone. Anders's approval if you betray Fenris to Danarius shows he wouldn't be far from that, and if he did that, it would irrevocably lower him to the level of the vilest, most despicable scum in Fenris's eyes at the very least.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

ejoslin wrote...

If you don't recruit Isabela, she could be anyone.  Though she was the catalyst, she as a character is not important -- only her one action is.  If you never see her, if she gets the relic on her own and leaves and you have no part of it, it doesn't change a thing about the story.

Her action is what is important to the plot, but she is not.

If Nathaniel was coming through town and had Deep Roads maps and you never had to meet Anders I am pretty sure he'd still blow up the Chantry.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 21 avril 2011 - 02:00 .

[upsettingshorts]

ejoslin wrote...

If you don't recruit Isabela, she could be anyone.  Though she was the catalyst, she as a character is not important -- only her one action is.  If you never see her, if she gets the relic on her own and leaves and you have no part of it, it doesn't change a thing about the story.

Doesn't matter.  If you recruit Anders and then ignore him for every quest that isn't labeled MAIN PLOT he's going to blow up the Chantry anyway.  Isabela's actions determined her importance to the narrative before Hawke ever met her, or even if he/she never does.  Because she created the situation Hawke has to deal with.  It is enhanced by her physical presence but doesn't require it.

@Hekateras:

I'm not entirely sure Anders is prepared to go quite that far, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if he did.

[Annarl]

lizzbee wrote...

omearaee wrote...

lizzbee wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

In Dragon Age Origins yes.  DG pointed out that this was an issue that they were endeavoring to improve upon in DA2.  He even said that Fenris was an example of that improvement... I'm really not seeing it.

I'm seeing it for say, Isabela and Anders and such, hence my posts here on the subject.

There are hints that Danarius is going to play some critical plot role later.  I've watched the vid of Hawke betraying Fenris, and Danarius mentions that Hawke has made an important ally.  I'm guessing if you kill said magister, there will be similar opposing repercussions.  Until we see the complete story arc, including DA3, we really won't know for sure.

I think that's the thing with Thane as well-- you've got ins with the hanar with him, maybe, but you really won't know until ME3 comes out.  For all we know both are "sleeper" characters who will have a big story impact later.  It's really hard to judge for sure where things lie in both series.

How can Danarius play an important role in the future if we killed him?  Fenris crushes his heart.  Or will this be another raising the dead and tell us there will be an explanation some day in the future (DG response to those players who killed Leliana)  I hope not!

I bolded the part you're asking about.  You kill a magister, his death causes some kind of power vacuum/struggle in the Imperium, and the aftershocks will have an impact.  My first sentence could be a little clearer, I suppose.  How's this: "How you handle Danarius will likely have some sort of major plot implications later in the series, or so some of the dialog would hint."

Okay, I read what you're saying.   I didn't pick that up before.  I guess we leave that for DG to decide (Danarius impact to the story)

Modifié par omearaee, 21 avril 2011 - 02:07 .

[ejoslin]

Pseudocognition wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

If you don't recruit Isabela, she could be anyone.  Though she was the catalyst, she as a character is not important -- only her one action is.  If you never see her, if she gets the relic on her own and leaves and you have no part of it, it doesn't change a thing about the story.

Her action is what is important to the plot, but she is not.

If Nathaniel was coming through town and had Deep Roads maps and you never had to meet Anders I am pretty sure he'd still blow up the Chantry.

I'm sure he would.  *sigh* ok, I guess maybe I'm wrong on this one.  Her action is important to the plot, though you don't need her to be in the game.

[lizzbee]

ipgd wrote...

A healthier way of life, sure. They still must have plenty of issues themselves, considering the type of person you have to be to join a rebel group. If that was his first experience of free life that he remembers, why doesn't he reflect that? He doesn't come off like someone that spent months living in a jungle. He doesn't even really reflect that many mannerisms you might expect from a former slave.  If I met Fenris without having known anything about his past, I'd probably just assume he was a normal guy having a bad day.

I mean, again, sure, it's possible for him to move past it... but it didn't seem like he was supposed to have moved past it. His entire character narrative seems to be "deeply broken slave", but he just comes off like "mostly rehabilitated slave with some residual issues". He just keeps telling you over and over again that he's broken and that his rage towards Danarius pretty much consumes his life, and I'm just like, really? You honestly aren't that bad at all.

I guess that's just where he falls flat for me. He talks a lot but his actions don't really reflect that narrative.

If he was as broken as you want him to be, he'd have never survived months in the jungle or three years on the run.  Interently, Fenris strikes me as a calm, rational, generally decent sort of guy, and no matter how you try to erase his memories, those fundamental personality traits remain, even if anger and passion override them when he's faced with what he hates most.

Modifié par lizzbee, 21 avril 2011 - 02:05 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Then couldn't the same be said for the rest of the characters? The point of this group seems to be that they are a bunch of people who from an outside perspective could have had something to do with starting the cluster**** that Varric and Cassandra are talking about. Isabela started the Qunari issue which earns Hawke his status as Champion, Anders is Anders, someone uninformed could have noticed an Eluvian in the Alienage and suspected Merrill, the captain of the guard was fraternizing with this questionable group, and Varric is just so damn loveable suspicious with his very suspicious spy network and very suspicious manliness.

Which brings me to the point, why is Fenris in that book?

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 21 avril 2011 - 02:12 .

[Helen0rz]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

If you don't recruit Isabela, she could be anyone.  Though she was the catalyst, she as a character is not important -- only her one action is.  If you never see her, if she gets the relic on her own and leaves and you have no part of it, it doesn't change a thing about the story.

Doesn't matter.  If you recruit Anders and then ignore him for every quest that isn't labeled MAIN PLOT he's going to blow up the Chantry anyway.  Isabela's actions determined her importance to the narrative before Hawke ever met her, or even if he/she never does.  Because she created the situation Hawke has to deal with.  It is enhanced by her physical presence but doesn't require it.

While I do agree with you (Upsettingshorts), and that Isabella action indeed influenced part of the story (even before, yes), I agree with ejoslin on her action part. that part of the main plot, in my humble opinion, was just the spark to set off the real problem. I understand it was a part of the act and it was important, it was and I'm not saying it is, I do think the main focus of this entire game is Hawke's rise to become and the Champion and the beginning of full on war with Mages vs Templars---the breaking point, what set it off, whichever you prefer more. 

[mellifera]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Then couldn't the same be said for the rest of the characters? The point of this group seems to be that they are a bunch of people who from an outside perspective could have had something to do with starting the cluster**** that Varric and Cassandra are talking about. Isabela started the Qunari issue, Anders is Anders, someone uninformed could have noticed an Eluvian in the Alienage and suspected Merrill, the captain of the guard was fraternizing with this questionable group, and Varric is just so damn suspicious.

Which brings me to the point, why is Fenris in that book?

Seriously, this has been bugging me from the moment I finished the game.

Nothing Fenris does that isn't directly related to Hawke has any plot significance. If you do recruit him, at most he is Hawke's accomplice. If you don't, there should have been a big blank right in that space.

[Heidenreich]

yukidama wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Then couldn't the same be said for the rest of the characters? The point of this group seems to be that they are a bunch of people who from an outside perspective could have had something to do with starting the cluster**** that Varric and Cassandra are talking about. Isabela started the Qunari issue, Anders is Anders, someone uninformed could have noticed an Eluvian in the Alienage and suspected Merrill, the captain of the guard was fraternizing with this questionable group, and Varric is just so damn suspicious.

Which brings me to the point, why is Fenris in that book?

Seriously, this has been bugging me from the moment I finished the game.

Nothing Fenris does that isn't directly related to Hawke has any plot significance. If you do recruit him, at most he is Hawke's accomplice. If you don't, there should have been a big blank right in that space.

Because Anders's bomb isn't of Quinari make, its of Tevinter make. Tevinter, where Fenris is from. Where by being a part of the 'crew', exposes Anders, the terrorist-trainee, to a TEVINTER MAGISTER.

**** it I'm tired. that's all I got.

[Helen0rz]

It's just a hunch, or really, it's just an idea.

Perhaps, like I said few pages back. Danarius is a political figure in Tevinter. By murdering him regardless of the reasoning behind it, it could potentionally cause a problem with the next game; like Merrill's attempt to fix the mirror, which she never did, I know, but there's that possibility that she could one day, maybe in the next game. The way the Seeker talked about Hawke's companions, she made it seem as though these very capable people with their own personal agenda did not just come together and fight for a single cause; she believed there were motives, or individual motives, like Anders.

edit: meaning that Fenris has a direct tied to that murder? and if you give Fenris back, you would've become Danarius' ally? I don't know. I'm just throwing things out there now. I just think the next game we're gonna see other nations, and HOPEFULLY NOT JUST A CITY

Modifié par Helen0rz, 21 avril 2011 - 02:15 .

[upsettingshorts]

Helen0rz wrote...

While I do agree with you (Upsettingshorts), and that Isabella action indeed influenced part of the story (even before, yes), I agree with ejoslin on her action part. that part of the main plot, in my humble opinion, was just the spark to set off the real problem. I understand it was a part of the act and it was important, it was and I'm not saying it is, I do think the main focus of this entire game is Hawke's rise to become and the Champion and the beginning of full on war with Mages vs Templars---the breaking point, what set it off, whichever you prefer more.

I'm not sure where it was decided that to be important to the story a character had to be important to the end of the story.  I know it didn't come from me.

[Hekateras]

"Accomplice" is likely enough if he accompanied Hawke even occasionally. It's not like the doesn't stand out.

If you never recruited or even met him, well...

I think the developers are fairly justified to assume that the players WON'T be deliberately missing out on content in their first playthrough.

[mellifera]

How big of a presence did Fenris have without being recruited? None, in my estimation.

[lizzbee]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Which brings me to the point, why is Fenris in that book?

Why was Leliana in Origins?  I figure Fenris is a "sleeper" character.

[ejoslin]

The reason Fenris is in the book... the same reason isabela is in the book even if she's not recruited... resources. Same reason that Hawke in the narration artwork and the statue is depicted as male. There are times it would be inappropriate for him not to be in the book as well.

[Helen0rz]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Helen0rz wrote...

While I do agree with you (Upsettingshorts), and that Isabella action indeed influenced part of the story (even before, yes), I agree with ejoslin on her action part. that part of the main plot, in my humble opinion, was just the spark to set off the real problem. I understand it was a part of the act and it was important, it was and I'm not saying it is, I do think the main focus of this entire game is Hawke's rise to become and the Champion and the beginning of full on war with Mages vs Templars---the breaking point, what set it off, whichever you prefer more.

I'm not sure where it was decided that to be important to the story a character had to be important to the end of the story.  I know it didn't come from me

I wasn't saying it's what you said; i was just telling you what my thoughts were on what both of you said. 

[mellifera]

ejoslin wrote...

The reason Fenris is in the book... the same reason isabela is in the book even if she's not recruited... resources. Same reason that Hawke in the narration artwork and the statue is depicted as male. There are times it would be inappropriate for him not to be in the book as well.

Isabela is still an important figure. Whether you recruit her or not, her role is clear and how it is connected to Hawke is clear in the Qunari conflict.

Fenris doesn't play any role at all if not recruited. It is not the same thing.

And the resources explanation makes sense to us, but it doesn't when thinking about it in the context of the game.

Modifié par yukidama, 21 avril 2011 - 02:19 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

ejoslin wrote...

The reason Fenris is in the book... the same reason isabela is in the book even if she's not recruited... resources. Same reason that Hawke in the narration artwork and the statue is depicted as male. There are times it would be inappropriate for him not to be in the book as well.

Isabela always takes the tome and is always responsible for the Qunari presence in kirkwall whether or not you recruit her. I assume there are other ways to find out it's her fault other than through her association with Hawke.

Ninja'd.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 21 avril 2011 - 02:19 .

[Ryzaki]

But how does anyone other than the Qunari know Isabela took the tome if she doesn't travel with Hawke?

Heck I got the feeling no one even knows the Tome is gone (save the Qunari who you can slaughter). Much less that Isabela took it.

And I doubt the Qunari are gonna spread that information around. I dunno just makes no sense she'd be in that book if Hawke didn't know her from Adam. (And that Beth/Carver isn't inthe book despite the fact that Beth can be a Circle mage and Carver a templar). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 avril 2011 - 02:22 .

[upsettingshorts]

lizzbee wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Which brings me to the point, why is Fenris in that book?

Why was Leliana in Origins?  I figure Fenris is a "sleeper" character.

I get that Origins had characters like that.  When David Gaider acknowledges it, says that DA2 wants to improve upon that and then explicitly states that Fenris does not suffer from this issue... then saying he is like Leliana in any way is implicitly agreeing with why I find the lack of a clear role for Fenris so disappointing given his statements in the first place.

[Helen0rz]

Ryzaki wrote...

But how does anyone other than the Qunari know Isabela took the tome if she doesn't travel with Hawke?

Heck I got the feeling no one even knows the Tome is gone (save the Qunari who you can slaughter). Much less that Isabela took it.

And I doubt the Qunari are gonna spread that information around. I dunno just makes no sense she'd be in that book if Hawke didn't know her from Adam. 

so technically speaking, whether you recruit Isabella or not, she's going to take the tome, which means the attack will happen either way. This means Isabella's character is important, yes, but whether you want to recruit or her is up to you because either way the outcome is the same, no?

[Ryzaki]

Helen0rz wrote...
so technically speaking, whether you recruit Isabella or not, she's going to take the tome, which means the attack will happen either way. This means Isabella's character is important, yes, but whether you want to recruit or her is up to you because either way the outcome is the same, no?

Her action is important sure but again Hawke doesn't know her. Why is she in that book instead of his brother/sister? 

She took the tome...and? Sister Peatrice did lotof crap too but she's not in that book. Everyone in that book has a personal connection with the Champion (save Fenris and Isabela).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 avril 2011 - 02:24 .