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[ipgd]

ejoslin wrote...

*sigh* The pictures in the book are of Hawke's companions. That Fenris and Isabela are in there whether they're recruited or not is because of resources. The same reason that Hawke is depicted as a man in the narration artwork and the statue is male as well even if Hawke is female.

The art is not always accurate. I can think of how they could have made that book work and have changing portraits in it -- but I'm pretty sure they ran out of resources.

It's a thing with Fenris specifically. What did he do to get into the book? Even if Hawke DOES recruit Fenris, he doesn't really do anything. Someone like, again, Athenril/Meeran have more of a connection and impact on Hawke's rise to power than Fenris does.

I mean, obviously, he's in the book because he's a party member, but he just seems... irrelevant in the scheme of things.

[Ryzaki]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That's a different question, and not one we should reasonably have to answer to demonstrate that it's possible that her total cluelessness could lead to an unlimited number of factually incorrect interpretations of events.

Right. 

Well the obvious answer is resources. He's there becase he's a companion. Like Templar Carver *isn't* there because he has a bunch of requirements for being in the book in the first place (Like Circle Bethany). 

[Addai]

ipgd wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

God, please- we did not need two male LIs who are totally mental.

It's enough for me that he is an observant and intelligent person, who precisely because he couldn't read developed other senses, and lived around Tevinter's equivalent of nobility where he could observe cultured speech and mannerisms.

It's more an issue with his mannerisms not really reflecting the severity of his treatment and what he basically tells you about how stable he thinks he is.

He doesn't have to be crazy, it just seems like his narrative is suggesting he was basically supposed to be but isn't. If he were written to actually be a well-adjusted ex-slave with residual issues, instead of a well-adjusted ex-slave with residual issues who seems to believe he's much more broken than he actually is, I'd... still think he was kind of boring, but it would be less confusing.

What are you picturing?  Foaming at the mouth?

Even before the game came out we were told he was a stoic character.  His raging is internal.  I see this as a product of his slavery- he had to learn to control anger and channel it into martial prowess.  As of game time, he is trying to learn how to feel and how to be normal, and he lets Hawke see some of the internal stuff.  You do see a very visible sign of his enslavement- I mean, the whole tattoo thing?  Plus his hunching.

[Caliyhe]

Addai67 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

God, please- we did not need two male LIs who are totally mental.

It's enough for me that he is an observant and intelligent person, who precisely because he couldn't read developed other senses, and lived around Tevinter's equivalent of nobility where he could observe cultured speech and mannerisms.

It's more an issue with his mannerisms not really reflecting the severity of his treatment and what he basically tells you about how stable he thinks he is.

He doesn't have to be crazy, it just seems like his narrative is suggesting he was basically supposed to be but isn't. If he were written to actually be a well-adjusted ex-slave with residual issues, instead of a well-adjusted ex-slave with residual issues who seems to believe he's much more broken than he actually is, I'd... still think he was kind of boring, but it would be less confusing.

What are you picturing?  Foaming at the mouth?

Even before the game came out we were told he was a stoic character.  His raging is internal.  I see this as a product of his slavery- he had to learn to control anger and channel it into martial prowess.  As of game time, he is trying to learn how to feel and how to be normal, and he lets Hawke see some of the internal stuff.  You do see a very visible sign of his enslavement- I mean, the whole tattoo thing?  Plus his hunching.

:lol:

[upsettingshorts]

The thing is though I think the question "Why is he in the book?" is meant to be rhetorical.

The question isn't literally asking why Fenris' image is present within the book we see Cassandra toss at Varric. It's simply a restatement of the same question this discussion has been asking all along: What does Fenris do throughout the course of Dragon Age 2 that demonstrates his importance in the narrative?

Other than being "an accomplice" what answers are there?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 02:45 .

[Addai]

ipgd wrote...
That would have been really interesting, had it played out that way. Instead, most of his character development seemed to have happened before the game. He's never at any point as extreme or unstable as Anders is by the end. If he'd started out really struggling with his rage towards Danarius/mages and actually taking extreme actions towards them in the beginning, and mellowed out by the end, I would have really liked him as a character, probably. But he just starts out mellow, then progresses to being slightly more mellow.

Mellow?  LOL  That is... not a word I would choose for Fenris.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Addai67 wrote...
What are you picturing?  Foaming at the mouth?

Even before the game came out we were told he was a stoic character.  His raging is internal.  I see this as a product of his slavery- he had to learn to control anger and channel it into martial prowess.  As of game time, he is trying to learn how to feel and how to be normal, and he lets Hawke see some of the internal stuff.  You do see a very visible sign of his enslavement- I mean, the whole tattoo thing?  Plus his hunching.

I got the impression that as a slave he was not unhappy or angry. He knew nothing else except being a slave. Like a Tranquil. The way I see it the anger came once he gained the perspective to understand that what was done to him was cruel. So why he is stoic about it... I don't know.

[ejoslin]

ipgd wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

*sigh* The pictures in the book are of Hawke's companions. That Fenris and Isabela are in there whether they're recruited or not is because of resources. The same reason that Hawke is depicted as a man in the narration artwork and the statue is male as well even if Hawke is female.

The art is not always accurate. I can think of how they could have made that book work and have changing portraits in it -- but I'm pretty sure they ran out of resources.

It's a thing with Fenris specifically. What did he do to get into the book? Even if Hawke DOES recruit Fenris, he doesn't really do anything. Someone like, again, Athenril/Meeran have more of a connection and impact on Hawke's rise to power than Fenris does.

I mean, obviously, he's in the book because he's a party member, but he just seems... irrelevant in the scheme of things.

Again, the pictures are of Hawke's companions.  I'm not sure why that's so difficult.  Avaline doesn't really DO anything.  Merrill doesn't really DO anything.  They don't have to.  They're there because they're Hawke's companions. 

That the book is static instead of changing is a resource issue I am sure.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 avril 2011 - 02:47 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Or the fact that you get a glimpse of the book before Hawke actually makes any decisions...

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 21 avril 2011 - 02:47 .

[ipgd]

ejoslin wrote...

Again, the pictures are of Hawke's companions.  I'm not sure why that's so difficult.  Avaline doesn't really DO anything.  Merrill doesn't really DO anything.  They don't have to.  They're there because they're Hawke's companions. 

That the book is static instead of changing is a resource issue I am sure.

I know that.

Basically, what Shorts said.

[tankgirly]

Astrobats' ritual.

[ejoslin]

But the same question can be asked of Merrill or Aveline. How important are they really to the plot? Not very. They're not stealing books or blowing up buildings or contributing to the wars.

If Fenris is a lover, friend, rival, he's important because he's there. He can influence the fight with the Arishok (if Isabela leaves and the Arishok doesn't respect Hawke, Fenris will step in and make that romantic one-on-one possible).

[mousestalker]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The thing is though I think the question "Why is he in the book?" is meant to be rhetorical.

The question isn't literally asking why Fenris' image is present within the book we see Cassandra toss at Varric. It's simply a restatement of the same question this discussion has been asking all along: What does Fenris do throughout the course of Dragon Age 2 that demonstrates his importance in the narrative?

Other than being "an accomplice" what answers are there?

He's dead segsy. He doesn't need to do anything. Cassandra has an eye for the hotties. Why do you think she spends so much time listening to Varric?

[silver-crescent]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The thing is though I think the question "Why is he in the book?" is meant to be rhetorical.

The question isn't literally asking why Fenris' image is present within the book we see Cassandra toss at Varric. It's simply a restatement of the same question this discussion has been asking all along: What does Fenris do throughout the course of Dragon Age 2 that demonstrates his importance in the narrative?

Other than being "an accomplice" what answers are there?

He's in the book because he helps Hawke through his journey? That's the same reason why Merrill, Isabela or Aveline are there, even if they might have achieved other things on their own. Obviously Isabela isn't there because she stole the Quanri book, and Merrill isn't there because she (possibly) killed her own clan, they're just there because they were Hawke's allies.

[upsettingshorts]

That other characters have done things of their own accord and made an impact on the story beyond simply being Hawke's ally - except Fenris -has kind of been the whole sticking point, from the beginning of this conversation heh.

[Ryzaki]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That other characters have done things of their own accord and made an impact on the story beyond simply being Hawke's ally - except Fenris -has kind of been the whole sticking point, from the beginning of this conversation heh.

What did Merrill do? 

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Merrill brought a mirror of doom into Kirkwall. I'm guessing that if she left it there and a Seeker discovered it they would assume she used it to help Hawke in some nefarious way.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 21 avril 2011 - 03:01 .

[Addai]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
What are you picturing?  Foaming at the mouth?

Even before the game came out we were told he was a stoic character.  His raging is internal.  I see this as a product of his slavery- he had to learn to control anger and channel it into martial prowess.  As of game time, he is trying to learn how to feel and how to be normal, and he lets Hawke see some of the internal stuff.  You do see a very visible sign of his enslavement- I mean, the whole tattoo thing?  Plus his hunching.

I got the impression that as a slave he was not unhappy or angry. He knew nothing else except being a slave. Like a Tranquil. The way I see it the anger came once he gained the perspective to understand that what was done to him was cruel. So why he is stoic about it... I don't know.

Where did you get that idea?  He competed for an extremely painful ritual in order to get a boon to free his mother and sister.  The ritual wiped his memories so he was more or less brainwashed, but he describes thinking the look on Danarius' face was "priceless."  That doesn't sound like a happy slave to me.

@tankgirly:  The GIF is cute, but is the spam really necessary?  It was cute about the first twenty times I saw it...

[Ryzaki]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Merrill brought a mirror of doom into Kirkwall.

That didn't work or cause any effect at all really. 

And...I doubt anyone outside Hawke's party (and Merrill's clan who I doubt would tell any humans) knew about the mirror. So..yeah...

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 avril 2011 - 03:02 .

[Affably]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The thing is though I think the question "Why is he in the book?" is meant to be rhetorical.

The question isn't literally asking why Fenris' image is present within the book we see Cassandra toss at Varric. It's simply a restatement of the same question this discussion has been asking all along: What does Fenris do throughout the course of Dragon Age 2 that demonstrates his importance in the narrative?

Other than being "an accomplice" what answers are there?

It seems like you're trying to simplify the story into neat narrative packages, where the story itself is that a situation more complicated than one (Cassandra) might think at first.  Fenris as Hawke's companion informs and gives more depth to Hawke's decision-making process — Hawke isn't just a mage-sympathetic ****-stirrer, they didn't intentionally try to provoke a war with the Qunari, and so forth.

[tsunderes]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That other characters have done things of their own accord and made an impact on the story beyond simply being Hawke's ally - except Fenris -has kind of been the whole sticking point, from the beginning of this conversation heh.

What are you talking about? Merril doesn't contribute to the over-arching plot at all, neither does Aveline, really.

[silver-crescent]

Ryzaki wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Merrill brought a mirror of doom into Kirkwall.

That didn't work or cause any effect at all really. 

And...I doubt anyone outside Hawke's party (and Merrill's clan who I doubt would tell any humans) knew about the mirror. So..yeah...

Yeah I think the companions are there because they were companions, simple as that. Not because of anything else.

[upsettingshorts]

Ryzaki wrote...

What did Merrill do? 

That Cassandra would care about?  Likely nothing.

Her actions did decide the fate of her clan though, a clan you meet in a plot-mandatory mission (her recruitment, Flemeth) and have dealings with.  The impact of Merrill upon Kirkwall and its surroundings - up to and including the Eluvian sitting in her house - isn't as major as Anders, Varric or Isabela - but it's there.  If Fenris had an incredibly important artifact sitting in his wine cellar, or could possibly get a whole community of people killed for his actions, he could measure up to say, Merrill.  Even that would be easier than the others I list.

tsunderes wrote...

What are you talking about? Merril doesn't contribute to the over-arching plot at all, neither does Aveline, really.

Do I really have to restate the whole "the purpose a character has can be a lot of different things, it just has to exist" argument, again?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 03:05 .

[tsunderes]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

What did Merrill do? 

That Cassandra would care about?  Likely nothing.

Her actions did decide the fate of her clan though, a clan you meet in a plot-mandatory mission (her recruitment, Flemeth) and have dealings with.  The impact of Merrill upon Kirkwall and its surroundings - up to and including the Eluvian sitting in her house - isn't as major as Anders, Varric or Isabela - but it's there.  If Fenris had an incredibly important artifact sitting in his wine cellar, or could possibly get a whole community of people killed for his actions, he could measure up to say, Merrill.  Even that would be easier than the others I list.

Honestly, I think you're grasping at straws at this point.

[Ryzaki]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
That Cassandra would care about?  Likely nothing.

Her actions did decide the fate of her clan though, a clan you meet in a plot-mandatory mission (her recruitment, Flemeth) and have dealings with.  The impact of Merrill upon Kirkwall and its surroundings - up to and including the Eluvian sitting in her house - isn't as major as Anders, Varric or Isabela - but it's there.  If Fenris had an incredibly important artifact sitting in his wine cellar, or could possibly get a whole community of people killed for his actions, he could measure up to say, Merrill.  Even that would be easier than the others I list.

Which makes her being in the book just as pointless as Fenris. Her clan has squat to do with the Champion in some games. Her Eluvian isn't known by most people (and even those who do know don't know what it's capable of ) so again I'm not seeing how her being in the book makes more sense than Fenris. Saying the artificat is important is straw grasping because it isn't the whole thing was a giant trap. The only person that mirror was important too was Merrill.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 avril 2011 - 03:11 .